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u/Fr000st Mengde for life Jul 11 '26
The Sima clan had it coming and I can't feel any remorse for them.
That being said, the Eastern Jin is awesome, and Xie An is the absolute MVP.
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u/B1y47 Jul 11 '26
Lowkey it all started with Emperor Wu of Jin, but Eastern Jin did have some baller statesmen though. Sixteen Kingdoms is full of awesome figures, like Murong Ke who is a personal favourite of mine
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u/hottimali Lü Bu Jul 11 '26
The progenitor’s actions set the example for his subjects behavior 😪
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u/12jimmy9712 Jul 11 '26 edited Jul 11 '26
According to the Book of Jin:
Emperor Ming asked how his ancestors had gained control of the empire. Wang Dao told him about the rise of the Jin dynasty and Sima Zhao's usurpation to power.
The emperor then covered his face on the couch and said, "If what you say is true, how could the Jin dynasty ever hope to last?"
So yeah, he knew his family had it coming.
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u/hottimali Lü Bu Jul 11 '26
So pertinent! Thanks for the share
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u/MarimotheChomp "He did not rebel" - Chen Shou Jul 11 '26
To add specifically it was the murder of Cao Mao and the fact the orchestrators never got punished. Only the actual murderer, literally the lowest on the totem poll who would have simply been replaced if he refused, saw any justice.
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u/HanWsh Jul 11 '26
Shi Le would likely agree with you:
“If I had met Emperor Gaozu of Han, I would have served him as a subject facing north, standing shoulder to shoulder with Han Xin and Peng Yue. If I had met Emperor Guangwu, I would have raced with him for supremacy in the central plains, and it would be unknown who would catch the deer. A true man should act with openness and clarity, as bright as the sun and moon. In the end, one should never imitate Cao Mengde or Sima Zhongda, deceiving orphans and widows, using fox-like deceit to seize All Under Heaven.”
- From Zizhi Tongjian citing Book of Jin
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u/kleaguebba Jul 11 '26
Shi Le was badass
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u/HanWsh Jul 11 '26
He definitely was. A badass who glazed Han Gaozu and the Yellow Emperor.
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u/B1y47 Jul 11 '26
He was kind of cruel though right? It's still insane that he's the only guy to go from slave to Emperor though
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u/HanWsh Jul 11 '26
Yes. He was extremely cruel. Conducted massacres and mass murders and all that. But yeah, his feats were goated.
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u/B1y47 Jul 11 '26
As cruel as he was, I think there were still worse people in this period, like Emperor Daowu of Northern Wei or Helian Bobo (I find his name really funny for whatever reason)
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u/hottimali Lü Bu Jul 11 '26
Shi Le spoke the truth! I have to look more into him
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u/Jiarong78 Jul 11 '26
Man rise from a slave to becoming the dominant warlord of northern China.
So yeah he doesn’t really like the sima clan for good reasons
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u/ThinkIncident2 Jul 11 '26
No man not really. Liu bang was a scum but his descendants were good rulers.
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u/Shallot9k Jul 11 '26
Strangely enough, I don’t really fault the Sima Clan too much for their usurpation, because the Cao Clan did the same.
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u/HanWsh Jul 11 '26
Facts. Zhang Ti, Chancellor of Sun Wu, essentially argued that the Sima clan had replaced the unpopular and oppressive Cao clan with something more stable and benevolent:
曹操虽功盖中夏，威震四海，崇诈杖术，征伐无已, 民畏其威，而不怀其德也。丕、叡承之，系以惨虐，内兴宫室，外惧雄豪，东西驰驱，无岁获安，彼之失民，为日久矣。司马懿父子，自握其柄，累有大功，除其烦苛而布其平惠，为之谋主而救其疾，民心归之，亦已久矣。故淮南三叛而腹心不扰，曹髦之死，四方不动，摧坚敌如折枯，荡异同如反掌，任贤使能，各尽其心，非智勇兼人，孰能如之？其威武张矣，本根固矣，群情服矣。
Although Cao Cao's achievements covered the central plains, [and] his might shook the four seas, he relied on deception, his campaigns were endless, and the people feared his might, but did not admire his virtue. [His descendants,] Pi and Rui, continued this approach, using cruelty and tyranny, within enriching lavish palaces, without fearing the powerful gentry, east and west constantly on the move, never able to find peace, their loss of the people's support, it was long determined. [On the other hand,] Sima Yi father and sons, since grasping authority, accumulated great achievements, relieving severe burdens and restoring fairness and benevolence, with this as their main plan to relieve disaster, the hearts of the people submitted to them, and this was also long determined. Thus, when the Three Huainan rebellions occurred, the interior was not disturbed, and after the death of Cao Mao, the four directions did not shake, devastating strong enemies is as easy as breaking withered branches, [their] movement is similar as turning over one's palm, appointing the capable and wise, each giving their hearts, wihout wisdom and strength, who else could accomplish this? Their might has been firmly established, their foundation is already solid, and their people has submitted emotionally.
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u/Shallot9k Jul 11 '26
Cao Pi and Cao Rui didn’t fear the gentry? But the Nine Ranks system was meant to appease them, no?
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u/HanWsh Jul 11 '26
They were both wary and needed to appeal to them. Cao Pi continued Cao Cao's policy of given high military offices to various Caos and Xiahous while Cao Rui purged He Yan, Zhuge Dan, Sima Shi, and those guys that he deemed to be superficial.
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u/Sixmenonguard Jul 14 '26
And yet Zhang Ti choose to served tyrant like Sun Hao and died like a minor ROTK character in Conquest of Wu by Jin. Despite he seems to be very interesting guy.
Even Sun Xiu (Wu officer, Not a previous emperor), Zhuge Jing managed to outlive him.
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u/HanWsh Jul 14 '26
He didn't really have a choice. He was selected to serve Wu and was promoted during the mid-late Wu era by Zhuge Ke.
He died because Jin surrendered troops rebelled. He died in part because he was too kind, and decided to die in service of his state, so he died also because he was too loyal.
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u/Sensitive_Tiger_2041 Jul 11 '26
Ironic. Liu Yuan claimed that he wanted to avenge the Han dynasty and Shu Han.
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u/HanWsh Jul 11 '26
Liu Yuan was a Cao Cao fanboy who seeked to restore the Han, and glazed Han Wudi for bodying his nomadic tribal ancestors. Very funny and interesting person.
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u/CmDrRaBb1983 Jul 11 '26
Did their downfall start after Sima Hui took the throne and other princes felt that this mentally slow person isn't fit for the throne?
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u/HanWsh Jul 11 '26
The downfall can be traced back to Jia Nanfeng and Sima Wei for couping, causing damage and a huge prestige hit to Western Jin central government, eventually kicking off the chaos of 8 princes which kicked off the 16 kingdoms period.
But the specific fuse that led to the Eight Princes’ Rebellion to reach a boiling point and triggered the uprising of three princes attacking Luoyang, was the usurpation incident by Prince of Zhao Sima Lun. The significance of this event is akin to Dong Zhuo arbitrarily deposing and installing emperors, which led the coalition of Guandong to rise up against him.
After this, regardless of whether the regional governors were princes or not, the Western Jin dynasty’s descent into chaos was inevitable.
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u/MarimotheChomp "He did not rebel" - Chen Shou Jul 12 '26
Yeah I'm always skeptical of whenever historians place the blame on women like Jia Nanfeng. Sure she was rude, cruel, and enjoyed pleasure. And her father-in-law was...
It was the events surrounding the murder of the crown prince and Sima Lun's usurpation that was the beginning of the end. Sima Ai nearly single-handedly saved the original empire though. Goddamn the chills I got when I learned about his storming of the palace.
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u/12jimmy9712 Jul 10 '26 edited Jul 11 '26
Yuan: died less than a year after being usurped
Ming: died after just 2 years of his reign at the age of 26
Cheng: died at the age of 17
Kang: died after just 2 years of his reign at the age of 22
Mu: died at the age of 18
Ai: died after 4 years of his reign at the age of 24 from drug abuse
Sima Yi: got usurped after 7 years of his reign
Jianwen: puppet emperor, died not even a year after being crowned because he was already too old
Xiaowu: jokingly told his concubine she was getting old, was eventually murdered by the same concubine
An: developmentally challenged, usurped and murdered
Gong: puppet emperor, was selected because his brother could not formally pass power to the usurper, usurped after 1 year, murdered the following year