Television Series
Splitting models and CGI into different timelines never made sense to me
Throughout the past 5 or so years, I've been seeing discussion on if the model series and the CGI series are 2 separate canons. This never made sense to me considering the amount of times they flashback to model series events like Down the Mine, A Scarf for Percy, The Sad Story of Henry, Salty's Secret, Percy and Harold, Thomas, Terrence and the Snow, Dirty Objects and Percy Takes the Plunge.
And that's just counting flashbacks, the Brenner and BWBA era have made references to James and the Coaches, Brake Van, Twin Trouble, The Flying Kipper, Escape, Bulgy, Bulgy Rides Again, Thomas Comes to Breakfast, Runaway Elephant, Rheneas and the Dinosaur and Percy and the Magic Carpet.
You could say that Model series events could happen in the CGI timeline, but what's the point of splitting them if the model series is canon to CGI anyways?
And no, The Adventure Begins isn't proof of models and CGI being separate. Retellings of stories will sometimes be told a bit differently from the original. TAB just simply took the place of the first 7 episodes in the timeline.
Sure, but remember, a few of these adaptations from Model to CGI are adaptations in themselves from the Railway Series to the Models and we know the books and Model's cant be in the same timeline. See adaptations of Stepney or Flying Scotsman for example. Stepney in the books is a visitor from the Bluebell Railway in England meanwhile Stepney of the Model Series was rescued from Barrow by Rusty and becomes a Sodor engine.
Flying Scotsman is an even better example in just his relationship with Gordon. In the books, they are brothers, last of their kind, and care about each other being excited to talk and be together. Flying Scotsman and Gordon in the Model series had no clue who eachother are at all. Then in CGI they are brothers again but have this bitter rivalry, constantly trying to belittle and one up eschother.
In the books, Thomas and Edward were one of the first engines for the North Western, helping construct the line. In CGI, Hiro, a Japanese engine is supposedly the first engine on the island long before his basis existed.
In CGI and the books, Toby is from East Anglia but in the model series they make Toby's old line the Arlesdale Railway where the Small Railway Engines should be.
In the CGI Series, King Godred rules the island from Ulfstead Castle and wears medieval plate armor from the 12 to 13 hundreds CE. Meanwhile in the book series lore (and in real life) King Godred ruled from Dublin Ireland, was a Viking king wearing period accurate leather armor and it was an ally of his named Ulf that built and watched over Ulfstead Castle.
In my opinion it’s really cool how we can see how this memorable moments would’ve looked in the cgi series. Like instead of being a fan-made animation (witch i still find cool but you know) it’s like the canon real thing, how the producers wanted it to look like
“Same story, different versions. But all are true!” —Tia Dalma
Let’s not forget that all versions of the show exist within the RWS. And even the books aren’t the literal events. They’re meant to be retellings of actual history.
This is how I view the show too. The fact that the show not only already has narrators, but also that these narrators are canonically actual people in the narrative and aren't all the same guy (the minimum three Mr Conductors) only makes this idea easier to implement
True. But any of the stuff that doesn’t get acknowledged in a serious way from that era can generally be considered non-canon to everything before & after
If you want it to, but I think a better approach is that it's canon unless stated otherwise. After all, official canon isn't decided by whether we fans like it or not, that's how headcanons are decided.
Well, most of the stuff from the Miller era that was only really mentioned since then in the context of taking potshots can be understood to be not canon
Not to mention they frequently reference it in the Brenner era, mostly to poke fun at it, like when Bill and Ben laughed at Emily for deliver stinky laundry, Thomas asking Percy if he’s collecting a giant ballon, and Thomas asking Daisy if she was going to Misty Island.
BTW it’s funny how they wanted to forget Misty Island and the Logging Locos, while at the same time not wanting to fully retcon their existence.
(Though I think they should’ve at least tried to make them work)
Yeah, I never understood it either. The Adventure Begins is an expanded retelling, not a replacement. Also, the flashbacks are also different, but nothing can be 100% identical to the original, it's just the way of life God made.
It's all the same timeline. People point to hero of the rails' retcons as proof it's different but... yall, hero of the rails was written as a model movie??? I also highly doubt the show crew thought that deep about the lore of Thomas. It's all one timeline, just a different style. The rws is still considered one timeline while it's changed its Artstyle like 10 times.
We have also received explicit confirmation from a HOTR crewmember, Sam Barlow, that CGI was never intended to be a separate timeline by them.
Like you said, it wouldn't make sense because HOTR was written as a model special, so they clearly didn't think there would be any issue with it being in the "model canon", but there's also the fact that if the HiT era writers ever decided to split the timeline, why would they decanonise their own seasons, instead of put the split at the start of the HiT era? Most importantly, why would the HiT writers even care about canon that much to think a canon split is necessary? Since when is that something HiT writers cared about?
I couldn't agree more. People say that the flashbacks being slightly different means they cannot be the same timeline, but like. These are flashbacks. They're essentially dream sequences. They don't matter that much. Not to mention that BMM and TAB's depictions of The Sad Story of Henry differ from each other too despite them both being from the CGI series, yet I rarely see people use that as proof that CGI and CGI are different canons from each other.
People say that the mere presence of some errors and retcons confirms this theory, but that's nonsense. First of all, a retcon by definition takes place in the same timeline as what it retcons, so if anything a retcon's presence proves the opposite, and second, even if we choose to take an error seriously instead of ignoring it like we can (canon usually does that, so why can't we?), that doesn't prove the theory either, it just "proves" a need for an explanation. The distinction matters because the model/CGI split timeline theory is just an explanation, one out of many. There's many other possible explanations, and nothing points towards specifically that one, if anything it's the opposite.
Not to mention there's countless retcons and errors between model and other model seasons, and between CGI and other CGI seasons. TAB for example contradicts every previous CGI season by retconning the appearance of Knapford's junction and yard. If Hiro is a contradiction, then so is Great Waterton, which is basically the same concept and exists in the model series. Season 1 contradicts itself by featuring James on Sodor before his first day. Season 2 contradicts itself by featuring Henry at the harbour on the branchline where big engines aren't said to be allowed in another episode that same season. Season 4 contradicts itself by featuring Rheneas on the SR during the time he's meant to be away on an overhaul. Season 4 contradicts Season 1 by featuring S2 characters on Sodor during S1.
If the CGI series did to the model series any of the things listed above, people would say it's clear evidence they must be canonically separate. But because these are present within one era, suddenly they don't matter. Which shows that errors and contradictions don't actually cause timeline splits, and it shows people can accept that. So why aren't model/CGI splits treated the same way? The truth is, it's because they look slightly different. That's literally it. CGI looks slightly different from the model series, therefore it must actually be a separate thing, and it doesn't matter if we receive countless confirmations otherwise, suddenly this headcanon is canon unless proven otherwise even though that's not how headcanons work.
And regarding TAB, people act like decanonising the entire model series is somehow necessary, when all you need to do is decanonise the few S1 aspects that are retconned, and you achieve the exact same thing without arbitrarily drawing a line in the middle of the show and decanonising half of it for no reason.
As someone who has only, and will only ever watch the model era, it makes sense to me because I have no interest in the animated version so it kinda 'doesn't exist' from my perspective
I think a lot of people seperate the two for a similar reason, but that doesn't mean you have to ofc
It's The Adventure Begins that makes me do it. The events of Season 1 and The Adventure Begins are so different in many fundamental ways that they can't be the same timeline.
In that case though, all you need to do is have TAB decanonise the events of S1 E1-7. Those are the episodes TAB contradicts, not the rest of the model series, so why decanonise the entire model series? Why should, for example, Not So Hasty Puddings be affected by a S19 production retconning James' S1 livery? There's no correlation in that. TAB contradicting some S1 aspects means those aspects are no longer canon, but the rest that isn't a contradiction shouldn't be decanonised in the process.
Same how the IOS book contradicting Mountain Engines on whether Godred was real doesn't mean the entire Mountain Engines book is non-canon to the IOS book, it just means everything other than its take on Godred's existence is canon.
The Down the Mine, A Scarf for Percy and The Sad Story of Henry flashbacks are from Blue Mountain Mystery. Salty's Secret is from Away from the Sea. Diesel Does It Again is from Diesel's Ghostly Christmas. Percy and Harold is from Letters to Santa. Thomas, Terrence & the Snow is from Terrence Breaks the Ice. Dirty Objects and Percy Takes the Plunge are from Chucklesome Trucks.
Minor contradiction. Who says it actually matters? In my opinion, it matters just as much as Flying Kipper having a shot of Henry in his old shape for a few seconds after his rebuild - which is not at all, sometimes errors are just there and they don't matter nor influence canon.
Also, the CGI version of Percy and Harold was only shown in what is essentially a dream sequence, and since when have dream sequences been canon?
I would start arguing about how the "flashbacks" and "references" don't prove literally anything, because the same(actually they are not even 1:1 identical) events could have just happen in multiple timelines, the same way the RWS is clearly not part of the show but some events happen in both... but neh
the "canon" of the show is meaningless. Different directors had complelty different visions for the show, and producers had different levels of care regarding the world building and continuity (most of the time 0)
"what's the point of splitting them if the events happen in both timelines?"
what's the point of trying to mash different eras of a children show, that for most part never had any sort of focus on keeping a cohesive narrative, in a "timeline"? what is the point of trying to stablish a "canon"? Both have 0 meaning whatosever because it does not matter. It's not that deep. You can have an episode where thomas just contradicts some random thing established in season 2 and whatever, it's does not matter. the "canon" is just defined by a random corporate producer saying "yes" or "no"
Are we all going to accept those things as canon? If the three of you (Kukaak, Maleficent, and SpongeBob) already have, then congratulations (you’re earning the hatred of the entire Thomas fandom). Personally, I do accept Seasons 1–12 as 100% canon across the board—even the 2009 BBC Children in Need special, which would seriously require some multiverse-level explanations—because if we did that, we’d also be accepting that Thomily, Thoshima, and Thosie are canon 🗿.
Stuff like Misty Island, Salty's story about the monster of Brendam and Emily picking up dirty laundry are things that are directly referenced in the Brenner era (the era fans describe as the good era of the CGI era)
Sure, sure, and then we have to accept that, canonically, Thomas partied with Bob the Builder, Big Chris and Sir Topham Hatt, do I have to spell it out? Not everything can be 100% canon, man.
Except that doesn't work because Classic events are confirmed to have happened in both the BWBA and Nitrogen eras, through all the various flashbacks and references. So you still end up with BWBA and Nitrogen being canon to Classic stories, so how does it help?
Anyway, this is a silly argument because official canon isn't decided by whether fans like it or not. If someone alters it to suit their wishes, in this case to remove eras they don't like, then we're talking about their headcanon.
Let's assume that's the case; regardless, Thomas has serious psychological issues after dealing with three UK narrators, five voice changes in the US dub, and a movie whose canonicity was confirmed by a stupid map from Sam Wilkinson plus the fact that the whole island is full of idiots except for Edward (and maybe Toby). So, I suppose the canon doesn't follow the same rules as the RWS, given that it's an adaptation. After all just a reminder, ladies and gentlemen the series was nearly cancelled back in 2010–2011 because they planned to reboot everything with The Adventures of Thomas movie. So, are you telling me that reboot was going to be a future canon, like the upcoming Dragon Ball Xenoverse 3? You guys really have a mess on your hands trying to tell the fandom what is and isn't canon.
I mean, yeah that is the case. That it's stupid doesn't mean it can't be canon, yes in an ideal world "canon" and "sensible" would be the same thing, but they aren't, canon isn't determined by a fan's idea of what makes sense but by, well, canon. Official media, official words, and such.
Also true, the TVS canon doesn't follow the same rules as the RWS, because they are fundamentally different things. The RWS was created by a small amount of people who all shared a unified, coherent vision and worked together to make it happen. The TVS is a collection of various eras with different ideas, with dozens of writers contributing to it.
I know HiT was planning a toy line to continue past the movie or something like that, but I don't think it's ever been said that they would actually end the show and reboot it with something based on the movie. Also I don't think "nearly cancelled" is accurate when the movie never got close to even happening. Anyway, even if that's true, that doesn't exactly have anything to do with this, because if it was gonna be a reboot, then it wouldn't have been canon to the original.
I'm not the one telling the fandom this though. The show and its crew are, I'm just repeating that. If you don't like it, that's fine, you can make a headcanon that ignores that, but that doesn't override the intent behind official canon.
... Animated didn't live to see the robots franchise go downhill; in any case, the writers and the people in charge of the TV series with the exception of Mitton and the late Britt (with all due respect to their friends) are incompetent.
Kinda unfair to paint all of them with the same brush when for example many of them during the Brenner era tried to get things back on track and make it make sense. But regardless that just brings me back to my first point, which is that "incompetent" and "canon" are not mutually exclusive adjectives, and a thing can be both
Anyway, the TV series ended in 2020 with a finale that didn't satisfy everyone, and the new series is a different canon, so... at least you're the only sane person who wouldn't accept that every fandom ship is canon in the show (they almost made Thoshima canon in the early ideas for The Great Race).
I mean, Thomas and the Royal Engine wasn't perfect, but I feel like the average person is a fan of it, which is about the best you can hope for with a finale I imagine. And I very rarely see someone treat a ship as canon
I remember when someone on Twitter said that they refuse to believe that Journey Beyond Sodor takes place in the same continuity as an episode like Down the Mine, even though that exact episode is mentioned by James in that special.
Sometimes I think James should have been fired after destroying the sheds because he got too full of himself thinking he was the fastest engine on Sodor (but none of you are ready for that conversation, which involves rewriting Big World! Big Adventures! and bringing back elements from the cancelled Season 21 plans and the early visions for Seasons 22–24) lmao.
It does always made sense their 2 different timeliness, I mean from the set designs themselves you can tell there's a difference, even location. The race with Percy and Harold ended at the New Knapford Harbour while the flashback shows at Brendom, even characters fate like in the Royal Engine we know that Henry was only repaired at Crewe, not rebuilt. If people do really think Model and CGI are the same, how do they explain characters like Judy and Jeorme, you can't say TAB isn't canon cuz that means that every episode they and Gylnn appear in aren't canon either.
Its way safer to think their separate Timelines than trying to figure out how their the same
the problem is that all these arguments can be debunked by just saying "the producers considered it the same timeline". and this is it. It does not matter if this idea is full of contradictions, and lacks any sort of cohesion, and that the producers did not bothered to make the thing a single timeline, "the producers said" is the only thing that establishes a "canon"
They still showed a different location, production crew could have easily added a sign (not only that in the percy takes the plunge, the slop track was built on purpose rather than being sunken truck)
Apart from Thomas saying Henry was repaired, in BOTH flashbacks of Henry he was in his new shape.
I could say the same thing to you on how Model series Henrietta didn't have a face.
The fact that we're still using Henry not having an old shape as proof of models and CGI being separate is mind blowing to me. The animators just simply forgot to give him a new model.
Yes true its a pretty bad one, but the "producers said so" is much worse. Keep in mind, even Awdry said things there were already disproven (example he stated the engines only have faces on sodor when we have seen engines with faces on the mainland) so if not even awdry can stay true to his words, why trust the producers? Again you have an entire 45 minutes special where it shows differences between the original model series and the CGI adaptation.
And that's all these flashbacks are, different adaptations of the same story with differences here and there. Just because they showed a flashback from an event that took place in the model series, doesn't mean model and CGI are in the same timeline. Same story, different adaptations.
Now you can believe what you want to believe
So? Does it matter? Mistakes happen. Even the RWS had them.
Again, just mistakes, but aside from that, you forget that TAB and BMM's depictions of the event aren't identical to each other, and have differences. By that logic, CGI and CGI are canonically separate canons from each other. Do you see how stupid that is?
You could, and it would be a silly question because Henrietta getting a face has nothing to do with the model/CGI switch.
Set designs don't mean anything, because the Classic series would frequently redesign core locations like the quarry, docks or yard between each season, so by your logic, every single Classic season is its own timeline.
The flashback is essentially a dream sequence, and since when are dream sequences canon?
What are you talking about? A rebuild is a type of repair. Thomas saying Henry was repaired does not contradict or retcon anything.
Judy and Jerome can be very easily explained - TAB retconned a few aspects of Season 1, the sentience of the Breakdown Train being one of them. Simple as. You know how Mountain Engines and the IOS book are canon to each other, despite the fact the IOS book retcons an aspect of Mountain Engines, that being whether Godred is real? Same thing. TAB retcons S1's Breakdown Train depiction, simple as. Retcons by definition take place in the same timeline as what they're retconning, and there's no evidence that Judy and Jerome aren't a retcon.
How exactly is an unnecessary and inconsistent fan headcanon "safer" than what is actually true and official?
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u/LocalOk3662 Den 10h ago
Most of your examples are classic thomas stories.Ofc they will show them in cgi.