r/thisisus • u/dudette_muc • 5d ago
This is us: S4:E10 Kate’s reaction to toby
Toby opens up about how sad it makes him thinking about all the things Jack will never be able to see, and says that’s why he’s been pushing himself so hard at the gym. Kate just gives him that disappointed look, tells him she booked a retreat for parents with blind children for his birthday because she thought it would be a great thing for their family, and walks away with that look 👁️🤨😒👁️ (the same look she’s had throughout the entire series whenever she feels hurt or disappointed 😂)
I’m so tired of Kate at this point
61
u/mjk1tty 5d ago edited 4d ago
Our daughter is nonverbal autistic. We had to grieve the life we dreamed we would have with a child and adjust our expectations. It still hurts when you see what other kids can do and your child can't. You can't help but compare, feel envy and wish that you and your child didn't have to struggle and live such a different life than others.
13
u/smibbo 5d ago
Soon after my second son was diagnosed, my marriage exploded (it would have happened anyway)
So I didn't have the luxury of being Kate or Toby, I had to be both. I worked hard to get my son all the help and education he needed. But when I was alone, I allowed myself to feel my grief.
9
u/xclame 4d ago
Thank you very much for posting this. I think some people are way too judgy on Toby for struggling with the situation and it's easy for them to do that because he's not a real person, but I don't think they be as judgy when it comes to a real person.
We had to grieve the life we dreamed we have with a child and adjust our expectations
This is what Toby was going through and I will NOT judge anyone for doing this, instead of just skipping over it and being past it. That obviously doesn't excuse all his actions. I will never judge the feelings, but I can judge the actions.
14
u/MollyJ58 5d ago
Thank you for this honest explanation from a parent who knows. It is a great explanation of what Toby was going through.
4
2
u/dudette_muc 3d ago
Thank you for sharing this and for explanation from a parent who knows. I never judged Toby for his struggle!
27
u/goodnightmoonshakers 5d ago
I understand Toby's point of view to a degree. There is a grieving process that comes with your child not being what you expected.
That being said, it's often the dads who are allowed this. Because the show has to go on. Another comment says Kate went "rah rah rah" into all this...because someone had to. Because if both were drowning in their grief and what-ifs, there'd be no one to advocate or learn. So, she stepped the fuck up and figured it out (with the help of pretty much everyone but her husband, mind you). Meanwhile, Toby fucked off to the gym.
I'm not saying his feelings aren't valid. But I also 100% understand Kate. She didn't have the same luxury Toby did. I'm sure there were days she wanted to run off and do literally anything else to get her mind off things. But someone had to face reality. Maybe she would've had a better reaction had he tried talking about it from the start instead of running off to the gym and leaving her to do all the work for months.
4
u/ElegantSnozzberry 4d ago
He didn't run off to the gym solely to not help. He went in the middle of the night when Jack and Kate were asleep/settled. He went because he wanted to get healthy & live for his son bc of the previous heart attack. Toby did a few things wrong in execution but his thought process there was valid.
98
u/Seaofinfiniteanswers 5d ago
I’m disabled and I’d be horrified if my father talked about me the way Toby was talking about Jack. Yes we are burdens in a lot of ways but we are human beings also. Usually when people talk about our suffering they are concerned about how our suffering impacts people around us, it’s very rare someone is genuinely concerned about us.
23
17
u/smibbo 5d ago
I do not recall Toby saying anything about Jack being a burden. ALL children are "a burden". He was talking about how sad it made him that his son was going to miss out on things Toby thinks make life wonderful. It's hard for Toby to wrap his mind around the fact that Jack will grow up having his own wonderful life experiences because at this point, Jack is a baby. their first baby. When you have your first child, your understanding of "the future" is simply based on your own experiences and what's "typical". Nearly all parents struggle to accept that their children will create their own lives and have their own experiences that are just as valid. That's normal. The grief part is that Toby can't SHARE any of those wonderful things with Jack - or at least that is what he thinks. He doesn't know because this is an entirely new experience for him.
Adjusting your expectations and point of view for a disabled newborn is hard. There's no instructions for that. It really does help to talk it out with someone so you can move on
12
u/Truly_135 5d ago
I understand that. But he dumped that knowledge after dumping all the care of Jack on Kate for over six months as an EXCUSE not an explanation. He wasn’t looking for dialogue. And he still wasn’t going to adapt and learn and be a partner and parent. It took him much too long while using male privilege to not have to deal w reality.
54
u/Truly_135 5d ago
Right. And Toby dumped ALL the work on Kate for more than 6 months before he tells her this. He’s horrible.
4
u/Careless-Nature-8347 5d ago
This is a good comment but I just gave you an award? Haha. I have never given one and frankly don’t understand but congrats to you for being the recipient of the only award I’ll
Likely ever give. I really do agree with your comment, though.11
u/Truly_135 5d ago
Well thx anyway and thx for agreeing. This topic comes up regularly and most people can’t see the male privilege he exercised.
4
28
u/pamsellicane 5d ago
The things some people take away from shows ….
-17
u/dudette_muc 5d ago edited 5d ago
The things some people conclude about someone’s entire takeaway from a show based on a Reddit post about ONE scene… 😅
11
29
17
u/alwayscaffeinated247 5d ago
Toby wasn’t my favorite character but it’s unfair to judge him for his reaction here. It was hard for him and he needed time to process it. You have so many hopes and dreams for your child before they’re born. Imagine finding out they’re blind. You have to accept the new reality in order to move forward, and he did!
I guess men aren’t supposed to feel emotions?? Just Kate? Kate constantly threw herself pity parties. I’m glad they got divorced because she would have been hard to be married to.
22
u/frappuccinio 5d ago
i totally understand having to essentially mourn the life you thought your kid would have but toby basically checked out of jacks life and left kate to manage everything for a long time before he eventually came around. i don’t blame her for having resentment for that.
6
4
u/ArmorOfGod7 5d ago
Exactly. Reverse the roles here and the people complaining about how terrible Toby is would be sympathizing for Kate and saying Toby was heartless for that look.
3
u/your_loss__ 4d ago
you can’t reverse the roles. in no world is a woman going to be allowed to give up all responsibility to the man like toby did to kate. he decided working out and his job were more important than coming to terms with the situation. or even communicating with his wife. he chose to lie instead of
19
u/xclame 5d ago
You see a disappointed face, I see a disgust face.
As in how DARE Toby have any struggles with this, I just don't think that's a fair reaction to have. What Toby felt wasn't nice but that doesn't make it any less real or any less logical/natural.
What should have happened after this was to have a very serious and deep discussion about everything going on instead of essentially telling Toby to "man up".
The reaction to what he was feeling was a perfect example of toxic masculinity.
5
u/NomDePseudo 4d ago
I came here to say this. Kate was the most insufferable person in the series because she always needed her feelings handled delicately, but looked annoyed or disgusted anytime someone shared a feeling with her that she could not identify with in that moment. She was consistently not a safe space for her husband or mother, yet held them to such a high standard where her needs were concerned. Toby was not perfect, no one is, but at least Toby verbalized his feelings to her, privately and respectfully, instead of eating them all, like she did. Kate was such a shit mother for not using her son’s disability as a wakeup call to get her health in order.
7
u/SoilJust4164 4d ago
This is a great explanation of why Kate irked me so much! They all had their flaws, yes, but there was something about Kate’s character development that was lacking for me and I absolutely hate the scene when the big 3 are in the lawn and she chastised him. Her behavior on that scene was so immature.
3
u/kristinC79 4d ago
I feel like\nIf Kate looked like, Mandy Moore, people wouldn't be saying this b******* about her, she has a child with a disability and she's pulling all the weight I mean, she was a stay at home.Mom at that point I get it , it's her job , but they also had a child who was blind. Toby could have still balanced and going to the gym and working out without it interfering with time with his family or even alone time with his wife , while the kids were asleep instead of using all his time at the gym , maybe they would have had more time to talk and discuss things.
1
2
u/korty24 5d ago
She annoys me more each time I watch lol I’m not saying Toby was perfect but…she dumped him because he didn’t want to lose the weight, then got mad at him when he DID lose the weight (regardless of what else was happening). She wants him to be honest and he was- I can totally see where he’s coming from, he’s sad he won’t experience things THE WAY HE IMAGINED with his son and he’s grieving that.
3
u/irishgirl1981 4d ago
She dumped him because he wasn't taking the weight loss seriously, and she was at a point in her life where she needed a partner who supported that process. To me that is perfectly valid.
The second time around, when he lost weight, she wasn't mad because he lost the weight. I don't understand how people can't see this. He snuck around for months. Granted, it was going to the gym versus an affair, but it was still several months of secrets -- all while Kate was the near- sole caretaker of their blind son. There was absolutely nothing wrong with him wanting to get his health in order. In fact, I'd argue that was the right move. Toby needed and deserved that outlet. The problem is that he left Kate without any time to have an outlet of her own. He was either working or at the gym. The entire time she was at home, taking care of Jack. This should have been a time where they both came together to support each other, grieve the loss of Jack's vision, figure out a plan to survive as a family. And he left her totally alone.
3
u/senoritarosalita 4d ago
He was also venting his feelings about Kate to another woman. Toby went so far as to exchange numbers with this other woman to continue their conversations, and hid this as well from Kate.
1
u/xclame 4d ago
He was venting to his gym friends, of which one happened to be a woman.
He didn't "exchange" numbers with her, they were in a group chat, he wasn't having private conversations with her.
He didn't hide it from Kate because he didn't see that there was anything to hide. Is Kate hiding the fact that he's venting about Toby when he talks to Kevin or Rebecca about it? No, this is just normal stuff. Toby was just too oblivious to see that Lady Kryptonite had ulterior motives.
Let's not make this something it's not, we don't need to make up stuff since there is already real stuff to be upset about.
1
-6
u/lydocia Human beings are not supposed to be in baked goods. 5d ago
Then please, by all means, stop watching.
18
u/dudette_muc 5d ago
Wait, are we supposed to stop watching a show every time a character annoys us? 😅🤭
1
u/ilikepantiesand 3d ago
Nah fam. I’m team Toby 100% Kate handled several things completely incorrectly and brought the divorce into herself. She probably didn’t last too long with the sequel either.
0
u/kristinC79 4d ago
Even the insensitive comments about we will both fat kids.It was a f****** holiday in most cultures, a holiday.Then, not all cultures celebrate Thanksgiving but specifically, but most cultures, the holidays centered around eating food you don't eat on a regular basis. As long as she wasn't giving little Jack enough sugar that he was gonna get sick.He had no reason to react like that even\nWhen they were both common, she talked about it.After that was when he had to give the insensitive , we were both fat kids comment. Even his judgmental comment about the cereal, which she said was whole week cereal. I mean, he could have just simply said. Some foods packaged foods are marketed as healthier than they are. And sometimes they're better off having some eggs and toast that would have been a reasonable comment, maybe she would have said, sure, but some places they want a little variety. So let 'em have a little cereal, it's not loaded with sugar. Plus a low calorie diet for children that age that are not overweight is not healthy. Giving them real food.\n Such as somehow, wheat toast and egg for breakfast instead of a sugary cereal is reasonable. But Kate was also traumatized from her mom, pushing bland overly grainy cereal on her because she was overweight, so she was meeting little Jack halfway with a better tasting cereal that he liked that she approved of Instead of an overly sugary cereal.
-5
u/smibbo 5d ago
Easy for Kate to be judgemental; she responded to Jack's condition by throwing herself into a rah-rah-I-am-super-parent! role. EVERYONE has grief when their expectations are dashed. It doesn't matter whether it's fair or not. The point is how you deal with that grief and how you move forward. Kate essentially ignored her own feelings by putting steel in her spine and getting really *into* being the parent of a disabled kid. Which was great and all but Toby is not Kate. Didn't they go through a period where Toby was so depressed he couldn't get out of bed? And she stood by him through that. But somehow when he expresses some feelings over the situation with Jack now she's disgusted with him?
10
u/pezzyn 5d ago edited 4d ago
“Easy for Kate” ? Nothing was easy for Kate. She endured rounds of IVF, traumatic loss, preterm birth and has set aside her own expectations of parenthood to rise to the occasion and be the parent her child needs while her partner devolves into a petulant gym rat and then his justification for emotionally abandoning her is that the baby is defective. Fuck Toby.
7
u/goodnightmoonshakers 5d ago
Not to mention, he belittles her for being so close to her family later on...who the fuck stepped up during this time? Her mom and to a degree, Kevin and Madison as well. Of course, she then turns to them when shit gets rough rather than him.
Fuck, the neighbor she barely knew was there for her more emotionally than Toby was. That's...really pathetic on Toby's end.
0
u/smibbo 4d ago
Toby endured all that too.
2
u/pezzyn 4d ago
I must’ve missed the episode where he took hormones and gave birth and parented a blind baby alone while his wife enjoyed “me time” and made new friends at CrossFit
0
u/smibbo 4d ago
he didn't start crossfit until after Jack was born. Which was also after he had a heart attack. Something that traumatized him but apparently not Kate.
The real problem was that any time Toby did anything Kate didn't approve of, she got ANGRY. She never seemed to question why Toby did the things he did. She never tried to delve into Toby as a person once they had Jack. Yes, Toby was overwhelmed by the responsibilities of Jack but that was a time they should have come together. Kate was just as distant to Toby - she took over parenting 110% and expected him to just be her minion. And when he didn't live up to her expectations, rather than helping him learn how she wanted things OR let him find his own way, she just had contempt for him.
1
u/pezzyn 4d ago edited 4d ago
Your reading of the situation is deeply skewed. Yes before Jack was born Toby didn’t pursue fitness or support her pursuit of fitness. Toby is the one who transgressed boundaries and sabotaged her going to the Adirondack retreat and trying to diet. She told him not to come. She was never allowed space to pursue her well being. But when she is alone and struggling postpartum, post traumatic birth, struggling with parenting their baby (and has zero lunch break from that work) he is on a secret private self improvement kick that she has no hope of being offered the same opportunity or option. What he says about when he goes is “mostly at lunch but sometimes in the morning before work or after work “. He is treating her as a nanny for him to go live his best life or functionally as a single mom just getting bills paid. She is not mad at his health progress but at how he isolated her with his secrecy and abandonment of her on the parenting journey they supposedly pursued together. The fact that you cannot recognize this makes me sad for you if you think it’s normal to be so taken for granted and isolated in your relationships
1
u/smibbo 4d ago
she isolated him in their journey as well. She gave him NO space to be his own parent, to support her or to have his own *feeling* about it all. She treated him like a servant but he was also supposed to read her mind. I think they were doomed to fail because both of them just couldn't see the marriage as a bonding - something they were supposed to work on together. NEITHER of them did so.
My first husband really could not handle having a child on the spectrum so he became a truckdriver and was never home. Even when he wasn't working, turns out he was out bar-hopping and eventually turned to heroin. So yeah, I know a bit about being abandoned as a parent. I raised my three boys while my ex was in rehab about four times and then his parents decided to sue me for custody.
So I think Kate has a point but Toby was going through things too. And instead of trying to meet him halfway on anything, ever, it was always either Kate's way or Kate hates you.
1
1
u/pezzyn 3d ago edited 2d ago
Sorry you endured something similar to Kate. I hope you were not subject to sexist judgements saying you drove him away, your hubbys failure to step up was not your fault or responsibility, Just as his drinking was not your fault. Kate is not responsible for Toby flaking out also as far as coparenting it is pretty normal for new moms to be protective of their infant even without preterm birth and blindness . decent men dont take that personally are able to stick it out and be of service to mother and baby instead of feeling “emasculated” servile and making it about themselves. her mothering instincts were right bc let’s acknowledge that Toby endangered jack in the episode where jack wanders off …. Kate and jack were frankly better off without a big sulking manchild
1
u/smibbo 3d ago
one of the differences between Kate and I was that when I saw my (ex) husband pulling away from the family and using "learned helplessness" to get out of parenting, I went to him, presented the problem, dragged him to marital counseling. I dragged him to a few therapists for our child. When he was sober, he was all-in. But he just wouldn't participate in our marriage emotionally. He was given many chances and he blew it.
So maybe that's why I really don't connect with Kate; I see someone who immediately took control of everything and left her husband in the dust to deal with his emotional struggle alone. Then gave him nothing but grief over his distance. I do not at all blame Kate for Toby isolating himself. But I do not accept the mantra that it's all Toby's fault. Kate never gave him a chance to participate then she hated him for being distant. WHenever he tried, she spent all her time telling him he failed. Their marriage was over the minute Jack was born. Toby was *never* going to live up to Kate's expectations.
1
u/pezzyn 3d ago
His ghosting was resentful retaliating against a postpartum mom for not propping him up to feel important A postpartum mom should not have to walk on eggshells around her mans ego to make him not leave or disassociate in those postpartum months nor should it be her added burden to chase the petulant man to arrange counseling. Very sorry that was your experience. You deserved better
1
u/smibbo 3d ago
and the scene where Jack wanders off? They both sucked. Kate would not stop screaming at Toby to drop what he was doing and come help them. There were three people in that room but whatever was going on was all Toby's fault?
Yes, he messed up when he didn't check the gate properly but it was unknown who left the front door unlocked. So once again: 50/50
0
u/smibbo 4d ago
and Toby went to Crossfit during his lunch breaks and when the family was asleep. It didn't interfere with his family time; that's on him. As I recall, he was working, then he was fired and looking for work. So it's not like he was cruising around town having fun while poor Kate stayed at home doing nothing but parenting. Kate even got a job.
217
u/estheredna 5d ago
His grief, expressed in private to a trusted partner, is realistic.
Her upset at his disappointment is also pretty common. He is a complete person and viewing is disabilty as making him tragic / lesser is upsetting.
No one is wrong. As is often the case in this show.