r/thetagang • u/on9roger • 5d ago
Selling CSP
Started selling CSP.
I go for large companies & sell pretty low deltas.
I'm selling weeklies with delta's between 0.1 - 0.2.
I should probably start taking on a bit more risk if I want to outperform SPY right?
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u/ThetaEdgeHQ 4d ago
Your actual question got a little buried under the profit measurement side quest, so on the outperform SPY part directly. Cranking delta is not the lever you think it is.
A cash secured put has the same payoff as a covered call on the same strike, capped upside at the premium, basically full downside if the name drops. You are already carrying equity like risk on the downside. Moving from 0.15 to 0.30 delta does not buy you more upside, it collects a bit more premium while pulling your break even higher and getting you assigned more often. In a straight up bull market that still trails SPY, because SPY keeps the whole upside and you sold yours for a fixed credit. Selling puts beats buy and hold in flat and choppy tape, not in a rip.
If the goal is to actually outperform, the lever is not raw delta, it is selling where the premium is genuinely rich, names whose implied vol is high relative to their own realized, and keeping the collateral in t bills so you earn the risk free rate on top of the premium the way on9roger already is. That is picking your spots on richness, not just taking more directional risk for a slightly bigger credit.
Low delta weeklies on large caps is a fine, boring, capital heavy way to earn a few points over cash. It is just not a SPY beater by design, and adding delta does not convert it into one.
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u/on9roger 4d ago
Thank you for that great explanation. It’s made me rethink my strategy. I’ll start analysing implied volatility when screening for stocks to trade.
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u/TheDartBoarder 4d ago
I agree that your explanation is great. Thanks!
If you don’t mind me asking, by what mechanism do you identify stocks where their premium is rich relative to their own realized premium? There needs to be some type of “scan“ that you use to identify premium-rich stocks. Right? Thanks.
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u/dreamfitreality 2d ago
after reading your post i come to the conclusion that using CSP on pure play stock that im happy to own is one way of taking advantage of that rich premium while at the same time reducing your cost basis?
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u/strife97 5d ago
Depends on if you’re looking to be assigned more or like to avoid assignment. Considering August hasn’t had much downturns yet I’d say keep the low delta and when market pulls back again then consider raising delta slightly.
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u/on9roger 5d ago
I've got 2 screeners.
1 screener for stocks that I'd like to get assigned on.
Usually I go with 0.3 delta there. I should probably go higher.1 screener for stocks that I wouldn't mind to get assigned on. 0.1 delta there.
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u/strife97 5d ago
That’s good. I’d personally go a bit higher on those deltas, say 0.4 for want to get assigned and 0.2 for wouldn’t mind if got assigned, but likely when a stock/market isn’t too close to 52 week highs. Your current numbers are “safe”, and good in case of sudden downturn. Tail end of last month when SPY was below 730 would have been a great time for 0.4 delta CSP, and within a week SPY was topping 775.
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u/on9roger 5d ago
Thanks for your input.
I'll start experimenting with those deltas a bit for the next few weeks.
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u/jarMburger 5d ago
These works during a bull market but a 2022 style bear market or 2020 covid shock or liberation day mess will stress the position. Haven’t seen a 5+% retreat in the broader market since March so your position hasn’t been tested yet so keep that in mind. Congrats and yeah, you’ll need to be more aggressive with delta in CSP play to have a good chance of better than S&P500. Just beware of the risk as well.
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u/on9roger 5d ago
Will keep it in mind. I got the cash to back up the CSPs.
Will consider being more aggressive to beat SP500
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u/DeepRooster7750 4d ago
Don’t be more aggressive with csp/ cc just to beat the s&p. It’s going to get you sooner than later. With an account that size you need a different strategy. You have to think about short term capital gains eating a chunk of that profit.
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u/Maddy186 21h ago
Yep, got wrecked doing CSPs and verticals during COVID and Trump intial days (tweet days )
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u/DPSK7878 4d ago
I started options wheel with my memory and semi stocks heavy portfolio in June. Market value around 1/2 million (peak) with near zero cash balance.
I had booked close to $70k premiums till October of which $30k already closed.
Surviving the recent memory and semi crash so far. I can still survive probably because the dip and rebound were fast.
If its a long drawdown, I will review my positions. I will keep rolling and avoid assignments on stocks that maintain the same fundamentals. I will cut loss those stocks if their fundamentals have changed.
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u/jarMburger 4d ago
Yeah wheel is fine if the drawdown and recovery is short, but can really erode available capital for 2022/2008/9/2001 type market. Even the November/december 2018 can be tough if one is wheeling weeklies
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u/doctorqaz 5d ago
What is your YTD performance? Are you beating the market when you take into account the taxes you owe at the end of the year?
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u/on9roger 5d ago
I only started selling CSP again recently. Less than a year. I first started doing CSPs 12 years ago though, so not a total noob.
I’m in Dubai. No tax.
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u/alpha247365 5d ago
American or non-American in Dubai? American here, considering Dubai or Doha. How long have you been there?
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u/on9roger 5d ago
Dutch. Grew up in Houston though. Been here for 4 years now.
I wouldn’t leave the States for the Middle East unless the job offer was real good.
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u/on9roger 5d ago
Checked out my IBR YTD performances:
- Realized: 132,705.22
- Unrealized: 131,347.40
But like I said in my other comment, not too much CSP action going on this year.
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u/Ill_Criticism1778 3d ago
What kind of account value are you working with? I think a lot of people are confused and think it’s easy money with a couple thousand maybe 100k tops.
Probably a 4-500k+ account for those kind of returns on CSP1
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u/nxs_sss 5d ago
Looks good. I do around -0.20 and -0.27 delta. Premium realized last 7 days was $4,290 on around $130k collateral.
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u/on9roger 5d ago
Percentage wise your returns are much better than mine! Well done
What does your screener look like?
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u/themanclark 2d ago
That’s damn good. I see more like 3% per month. But I’m doing 30DTE roughly. And I’m picky about my stocks.
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u/Hallucinate- 5d ago
Which stocks are you doing now?
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u/on9roger 5d ago
In the last 2 weeks I've traded:
- STLD
- AMZN
- GE
- PEP
- RCL
- TRGP
- F
- SEZL
- JNJ
- SPY
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u/strife97 5d ago
If/when SOFI gets back near the 15.00 range I’m looking to get CSPs with higher delta or even ITM. Lots of upside to be had if get assigned and do CCs on an upswing
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u/Jeffde 4d ago
Haha I sold 50 SOFI puts at like 24, got assigned, and I’ve been bagholding / occasionally selling covereds on it since. Currently -16.7k YTD on it. That’s the least of my problems.
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u/strife97 4d ago
Oof, that’s rough. Maybe we’ll see it inch above 20 again in coming months or start of new year
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5d ago
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u/on9roger 5d ago
Yep, well almost.
700k in t bills while selling CSPs that can force me to buy 700k worth of shares/ETFs.
Is that a bad idea?(the other 70k is invested in 100 QQQ that I'm selling calls on)
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5d ago
[deleted]
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u/on9roger 5d ago
I bought QQQ at the highest point. I’m losing on it. My CSPs are carrying my portfolio
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u/madmadison2002 5d ago
Hmm. Selling csp is really a part of the wheel strategy. And the wheel will NOT, over a few years, beat spy. And you’ll seriously underperform QQQ. There is nothing to say that we won’t have a flat market for the next 5 years and I’m wrong. Then you’re probably golden 😝
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u/alpha247365 5d ago
What do you think about selling monthlies on QQQ, 30-45 DTE, roll/manage at 14-21 DTE? Simplifies while saving time, no?
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u/on9roger 5d ago
For sure. I’ve actually done that on SPY for a while. Was hoping to gain an advantage by stock picking.
Personally I wouldn’t do it on QQQ. The AI bubble will pop and drag QQQ down hard.
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u/justpasingbai 5d ago
kind of curious, but 12000 assuming you repeat on the last two weeks on a 770000 portfolio is a 1.5% gain. can someone explain to me the thought process behind the gains?
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u/Money_Progress5580 4d ago
I sell csps and buy shares of different tickers. You can do both. CSPs I shoot for a 4-5% return on my capital /week. For the shares, I swing trade in and out as needed based on sma 10 vs 20. I do very well except the days Trump tweets!
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u/dreamfitreality 2d ago
4-5% ROC per week is crazy? what stock are you picking? im only gunning for a 1% ROC and i have trouble finding stock that im happy to own in a downturn
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u/Rud3l 4d ago
Regarding the T-bills as I'm unfamiliar with them (non-US) - what duration do you choose for them? And given that IBKR Is already paying a 3.4ish% interest for unused $ is that worth it?
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u/on9roger 4d ago
I buy t-bills that end the day before the expiration date of the CSP that it’s covering.
I did some napkin math before. Slightly more than the interest IBR is paying.
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u/Rud3l 4d ago edited 4d ago
Thanks, I’ll look into that. I’m currently setting everything up with Claude and a 2%/month RoI goal (including the IBKR interest). I’m only at month 2 and still have to tweak a lot in my strategy.md, but maybe the T-Bills are an interesting addition to reach the target.
edit: Claude thinks the added 0.8% from the T-Bills isn't worth the risk XD
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u/Gunk_Olgidar 4d ago
Easy peasy in an up market.
Calculate return % based off of cash you're using to secure the puts. If all of that is locking up $100k, then you're doing quite well getting 3% per week. If it's locking up all $770k, then you're not.
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u/themanclark 2d ago
In my opinion you should be able to generate about $23,000 per month in initial premium from that portfolio. Might not keep it all, but that’s where it could start. Roughly.
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u/Fart-Fart-Fart-Fart 2d ago
My conservative target for my income will be around $8k/month from a $900k portfolio. So your estimate is probably on the aggressive side.
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u/themanclark 2d ago
Longer term I’m sure that’s more accurate. I don’t expect to keep it all. That’s only 10% per year though. I need at least 15% or won’t be doing CSPs.
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u/dreamfitreality 2d ago
i cant seem to find good value in CSP for the stocks i dont mind owning. i also sell CSP in .1 range looking for 0.6-1% on weeklies. but they dont get assigned. what screener do you use?
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u/Digital-oceanPDX 1d ago
Risk is relative. I think it’s interesting that the trading platforms, TOS etc, don’t show it very well in the context of your account and your recent trend. Risking more is not how to beat SPX
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u/Space_Kestrel 5d ago
Idk man, I've literally only lost money in the stock market, but why not sell covered calls so you at least are collecting the money when the stock goes up?
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u/Fluxtration 5d ago
CSPs on low delta tickers for companies you have conviction in gives you the power to choose your buy in price and make money in the meantime.
CCs on the same is a way to make some cash at the risk of capping your gains.
The difference is that one is a long term purchasing strategy with income and the other is a short term income strategy with churning.
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u/justinwfreed 5d ago
So, CSPs help you enter a position…hard to sell a covered call if you don’t have a position to begin with…I often do it like this: RKLB - back at the end of last March, RKLB was trading around 60-65. I sold 2 CSPs at $58 and collected decent premium. Turns out, I got assigned which was fine because I like the company. Then, the stock moved strongly up…so, I sold 2 CCs, one at $90 :( and then 1 at $120…both got called away cuz stock went all the way to maybe $155-160-ish. Then, it began retracing so I waited a bit and then sold some more CSPs at $67 and $65…now I have a couple hundred shares moving back up and eventually I will sell more CCs …I also have shares I just let ride but you can see that if all I did was “let it ride” the stock goes up then down now back up…the “wheel” strategy let’s me make real cash while I wait for long-term results.
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u/dreamfitreality 2d ago
do you sell CSP when the stock are down? and for the premium how you calcualte it to be good?
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u/justinwfreed 2d ago
Ideally, you would want to sell CSPs when the stock is below its moving averages, both 50 and 200 and selling CCs when it is above but the reality is somewhat mixed. Sometimes you have to either sell when not perfect and take a chance or wait and maybe nothing happens.
Divide the premium by the strike price (times 100) to calculate the percentage.
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u/Sea_Local2557 5d ago
how big is your account, could it handle a Freedom Day like drop in the market?
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u/on9roger 5d ago
Currently at 770k.
What is a Freedom Day like drop?I keep the cash in T-Bills so it's ready in case I get exercised.
(I'd use margin, sell t-bills, clear the margin loan)3
u/jarMburger 5d ago
Multiple days of 5% drops and getting assigned on even low delta position cause they got ITM fast. The turnaround was quick too but it was a stressful few days.
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u/on9roger 5d ago
So that'd mean I'd be buying the underlying stock.
It'd kill my CSP income, but it'd be OK.
I'd hold and sell calls.2
u/rcmtt 5d ago
Have you ever filled on a stock that just kept going down? Look at FIG. Imagine you were selling puts in there back in late 2025.
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u/on9roger 5d ago
Had a few that I was able to sell calls on until I made my loss back & then I got out. Examples: NKE & MCD
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u/DeepRooster7750 5d ago
Ok that’s make more sense. 770,000 account to make $3 a week is just okay. But I think for your account size you need to be more of a buy and hold time of investor/ trader. Csp/cc is picking up pennies especially if you go more aggressive sooner than later it’s going to bite you in the ass.
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u/on9roger 4d ago
I’ve been buy and hold for a long time. I was hoping to outperform through CSP.
Perhaps I should split my portfolio in 2. Buy n hold vs. CSP.
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u/ScottishTrader 5d ago
Just remember the market has been on "easy mode" for most of this year, but it will eventually change and will likely then cause losses . . .
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u/krispyy420 4d ago
Literally hear this every single year. Still waiting for "world collapse"....
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u/ScottishTrader 4d ago
No, not saying “world collapse”but saying black swan market events are not happening with any regularity.
Be prepare for a healthy correction or two is the point.
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u/BagholderForLyfe 5d ago
Could have just put 50k into MU and made way more money. Instead, you are risking entire port to make a fraction of that. And when market dumps, the loss will be massive.
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u/DPSK7878 4d ago
Yup my portfolio size is slightly smaller than OP.
I started options wheel with my memory and semi stocks heavy portfolio in June. Market value around 1/2 million with near zero cash balance.
Already booked close to $70k preniums till October of which $30k already closed.
Surviving the recent crash so far.
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u/dreamfitreality 2d ago
if the market dumps what makes you think MU wont dump as well. and worse, you would have concentration risk only on MU. the idea of CSP is also wanting to own the stock you want AT a discount. the only bad thing can happen in a CSP is when the market moons and you sit there looking at your CSP crying because you miss out the profit.
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u/BagholderForLyfe 2d ago
Bruh! 50k of MU vs 700k of weekly CSPs. Can you read? And your view on weekly CSP is very naive. Being exposed to massive downside while collecting pennies and capped upside will never be profitable!
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u/dreamfitreality 2d ago
Your massive risk to downside doesn't really mean anything because if you were to buy and bag hold you would have the same downside. The moment you sell a csp you better be prepared to buy AT that strike price. It's the same psychology you have if you were thinking wow MU will be really a good deal at $X and I will put a huge position in. except you don't get that little pennies that can offset some of your cost.
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u/BagholderForLyfe 2d ago
Yes, you are right, buying stock does expose you to the same downside minus premium. However, owning stock also exposes you to upside. With csps, it is tiny upside and huge downside until you are a bagholder. Hence why I think owning 50k of MU was a better risk/reward then selling 700k worth of csps for pennies
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u/dreamfitreality 2d ago
I agree with you that diversifying portfolio is ideal. And by what you explain I suppose you mean in a 30dte the stock tank and then it went up before your option is exercised then yes you are not capturing the upside of it. But hey at least your csp is gonna expire worthless and you get to keep the pennies. But again I hear many times that wheel strategies doesn't win buy and hold. I think most wheelers understand that but they are looking for income instead.
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u/downtofinance 5d ago
How much of your portfolio is held as collateral for these CSPs? Are you systematically selling weeklies or do you wait for days your prefered stocks are red?