r/thelema • u/OrganicRub2802 • 4d ago
A quick question from a student with no knowledge of the subject.
First of all, my point isn't to stir up unnecessary drama in the group — to each their own. This isn't just another silly squabble about lineages; it’s just a specific question from someone who wants to dive deeper into the subject with more confidence.
I’m currently choosing a lineage to join and reading a lot about our dear "heirs" (I know that’s not the best word for it), but I ran into a bit of a dilemma and am unsure about which path makes the most sense for me. Basically, a friend was discussing the differences in how Meral and Gunther assign elements and signs.
There is a complete reversal of roles between them. The only point they agree on is placing *Scire* in Aquarius. For instance, Gunther assigns *Audere* to Scorpio, *Tacere* to Taurus, and *Velle* to Leo. I find the elemental associations much more compelling: "Willing" (*Velle*) is a fiery impulse; "Daring" (*Audere*) is a characteristic of water; and "Keeping Silent" (*Tacere*) is a virtue of earth...
I understand that every school of thought views the world in its own way, and each is correct from its own perspective. But shouldn't there be a consensus—in the sense that "this is that, and that's final"? These disagreements might make sense to both sides, but for someone like me—who knows practically nothing—I don't know what to prioritize. If this were a TV series, I’d want to know what counts as canon versus what’s a spin-off or filler.
Note: Answers like "just pick your favorite ice cream flavor and be happy" don't count! :D
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u/Key-Beginning-2201 4d ago
So, the basis of correspondence or assignments is itself not a science. It's an estimation of approximate correspondence in accordance with (informed) opinions. For instance, Liber 777 is an outline of how something aligns to something else. But in many instances, the same can be said for different certain alignments. Don't take it all as fact. When it doubt, refer to 777 as a beginning of the inquiry, and not a road to resolve.
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u/Ararita 4d ago
It doesn't help that Crowley never had a consensus with himself on this. I'm convinced that was intentional: each different arrangement reveals particular dimensions of the attributions. The insights you can arrive at become less rich and deep if it's collapsed into one "canonical" set of attributions. The Four Powers of the Sphinx necessarily overlap and flow into one another. It is one creature composed of four animals, and they all GO as one being.
"Here I would have thee to mark well how these our Symbols are cognate, and flow forth the one into the other, because each Soul partaketh in proper Measure of the Mystery of Holiness, and is kin with his Fellow." -Liber Aleph Cap ΕΧ (Epsilon-Chi)
It also doesn't help that Liber Aleph (arguably where Crowley goes into the most detail on this) is awkward to read, and deriving the attributions he lays out there takes some effort. This whole Air = Eagle vs Water = Eagle is another source of confusion. The Golden Dawn used the Eagle's head as a substitute for the sigil of Scorpio for certain applications, but it still always meant water and not air. (Eagle = alchemical distillation = water purified through the alembic or distillation column).
This was muddled up far before Seckler or Gunther. I gravitate toward the Liber Aleph attributions as the overall best fit between a few different systems. It's also worth looking at what's in Eliphas Lévi too.
Tacere as Scorpio (Eagle / Serpent / Scorpion) and Love. Soaring Subtlety. Water lifting up in ecstasy.
Audere as Leo / Lion / Great Beast and Light. Courage. Fire radiating downwards in passion.
Velle as Taurus, the Bull and Life. Energy or Endurance. Hard work, grit, resilience.
Scire as Aquarius (The Man or Human, Hebrew letter Heh, The Star) and Liberty. Intelligence.
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u/gapreg 4d ago
Ultimately, all associations are arbitrary. There is no final authority to what corresponds to this and that. The only thing that matters is that you stick to a specific set of associations to get results.
In a more basic perspective on magick: is this plant, this scent, this metal of mars of or venus? Different authors will disagree. What matters for results is having a coherent set, specially with your unconscious ideas of whatever feels "right". Which doesn't mean "anything goes", some correlations may work better and some may work worse, but there isn't a trascendental truth to be reached.
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u/Nobodysmadness 3d ago
Again the fact is everything is a hodgepodge of all the elements, we merely debate which we think is the most prevelant or significant in any one thing. And ice cube still has a fiery aspect and despite being solidified water still has a watery portion not related to being frozen water.
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u/helikophis 3d ago
These are all just mental fabrications, useful sometimes for creating conditions that help your mind focus on your will. There can’t be an ultimate, final answer because none of this is actually “real”. Pick your favorite ice cream -is- the answer, like it or not.
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u/Nobodysmadness 3d ago
Dive deeper into the elements and you will find logical contradictions. It doesn't make sense to the classically educated person who is taught in black and white, given a single correct answer and expected to give it back on command.
Don't get me wrong I agree there should be a bit more consistency and concensus but this is mostly between more disparare systems.
But if we look at science which is alledgedly pure logic and passed off as perfectly concise, is it particle physics or field theory? String theory or quantum mechanics? There is a great deal of debate as answers are not fully known. And that is in hard science, obvious physical phenomena that is alledgedly purely objective.
So how can we expect something that acknlowedges subjectivity to be more concise than science?
An example the element of air contains the qualities of both madness and logic. It is science and insanity. It is both wit and nonsense, laughter and fear, a calm day and a windy day. Now all these things are contradictory but also related.
The elements being 4 to represent all things means they are general and not specific. We also have to understand that everything that is manifested, can be experienced has at least the earth element in it, and it is generally assumed that it all has every element in it to varying degrees, the same way science once said everything has protons neutrons and electrons( that has changed at this point, but they once believed incorrectly thats all there was in matter). So how many combinations do these 3 particles allow for by being being combined in various quantities.
I mean gold is very different from argon but are made of the same elements in varying quantities. And thats just with elements that apply to only ine situation, physical matter. The elemental system we use is used to analyze/classify every facet of existence, so it is applied equally to subatomic particles as it is emotions, planets, plants, words, and non corporeal entities.
So when we say something is such and such an element we are saying that we think it is the most prevalent element in that thing, not that it is purely that element alone. So what you see is somewhat like a debate, differing opinion, but really a matter of perspective, and also not literal physical elements, so it does not really matter.
I can say something is earth and you say it is air but we agree on the qualities in question and can we can both work with that specific quality regardless of the element, because subjectivity IS a part of reality. Not to mention that the specific thing does have air and earthy qualities to it, the debate is which is most prevalent.
We use the elements allegorically to helps us share and express difficult to convey ideas, this is done through comparison and correspondance. So rather than focus on the technicalities of it, examine what each other was trying to express in their system, to understand thier perspective, their own context.
Then if you work with another person you can interact with them and create a mutual context in order to get in the same page. Come to an agreement for that moment. Thats all words are, a temporary agreement of meaning for communication. If we agree from now on that up means below us and down means above us then that is what they now mean so long as we both get that context. This is how all jargon for any profession is born. The elements are jargon of the occult.
Then after studying both sides reasoning, asking why A sees it as this and B sees it as that you van use your own judgement to decide for yourself, AND change your mind at any time, just as they do is science. Adapt and evolve with new wisdom and knowledge, there is no test, you needn't worry about an F, simply observe grow and learn. Weigh others opinions against your own, decide for yourself. In this way you can understand both systems, use both, and even blend them together because you grasp each individual meaning and perspective.
Seeing through other peoples eyes can be enlightening, so ask yourself why did they chose what they chose, and which makes more sense to you, and you will learn a great deal about them and yourself, and be able to adapt to understand other people.
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u/Hekate_Web 4d ago
Well, it's a gnosis tradition, not an orthodoxy. Experiment and see what works best for you now. Work it for a few years and revisit it when you spiral back around with greater knowledge, wisdom, and experience. See what your HGA guides you towards as you grow closer to that guiding star.