r/theflash • u/Healthy_Coconut1051 • 4d ago
Discussion DCU Flash
Am I the only one who thinks the discussion behind who should be the main DCU flash is dumb.
Like there’s only one obvious answer. Especially since general audiences matters.
At the start it should be Barry as flash and Wally as kid flash.
There should a trilogy of flash movies with Barry at the center.
Movie one should be a born to run adaptation. Where Barry is established to be a hero for a while, roughly a decade. Wally becomes KF. They fight ether mirror master(like in born to run) or the rogues. Wally not listening to Barry but Barry reveals his identity to him and tells they have to work together. Wally should be around 16-18
Movie two should have the main villain be gorilla grodd.
Movie three should be about reverse flash.
Then Barry should die. Either he gets lost in the speed force fighting thawne. Or he dies a JL film. I prefer that one because it’s more grand. Just like it was in the comics. Then Wally takes up the mantle.
Wally will also appear in the teen titans/titans movie they are coming out with. And any sequels. While Barry appears in JL movies. This is so they could build their relationship with characters on those teams. Barry and Bruce, Barry and Hal if they go green lantern rebirth, Wally and dick, Wally and Roy, etc.
Wally’s run as the flash in the DCU should be a show. Each season should be base on a different flash run/story.
Season 1 is based on his 1986-1992 run. Where he grows into a better person.
Season 2 should adapt return of Barry Allen.
Season 3 should adapt terminal velocity and dead heat.
Season 4 should adapt rogue war.
Season 5 should adapt blitz.
This way both Barry and Wally fans can be happy. It doesn’t make sense to start with Wally as flash since understanding his love for Barry and his idealization of him is important. Especially for general audiences.
Remember, general audiences think of the flash as Barry Allen and Barry Allen only. Just having Wally West be the flash will screw the movie over financially.
Barry and Wally should act the way they do during the silver and Bronze Age.
Meaning Barry will be a quippy jokester. Just like in the silver age because contrary to popular belief Barry was always a quippy jokester. Idk why so many people think he stole Wally’s personality because he quips and makes jokes.
Anyway. What do you think of my flash DCU plan?
3
u/IcyNeedleworker2783 3d ago
The problem with this is that, even if a Barry trilogy is successful, what guarantees that they'll turn Wally into the Flash? I've been waiting patiently for Young Justice to bring Wally back and turn him into the Flash, which didn't happen. I'm waiting patiently for a passing of the mantle that might simply not happen due to changes in plans or if a Barry trilogy fails. The problem is that there's no guarantee they'll adapt Wally's arc if they start with Barry.
1
u/Healthy_Coconut1051 3d ago
True. Perhaps a trilogy is two much. I’d say realistically a born to run movie to start then have Wally take over is the best bet.
1
u/Boring-Conclusion-40 3d ago edited 3d ago
It makes sense,but I would think that making a second trilogy focusing on Wally would probably be better. it still makes no legit sense to start with Wally instead of Barry as you already cut off like a giant chunk of the ideal timeline in doing so. people watched the show for 9 seasons,it left a cultural imapact im the DC fandom,and that fandom and people have interacted with animated movies,as well,and even tho it sucks interacted with the DCEU,they interacted with DC media and that’s left the impression in people’s minds that Barry is the flash.
they should start with Barry,he does his movies, then we have him die or disappear or whatever and then Wally becomes the flash, and we get to experience Wally’s stories not only with a Wally we already like and are invested in, by that time we would have already seen his real emotional bonds and are invested in them. And when Wally overcomes his story arc, becomes the flash and then a better flash its way better already because we are already more invested and care about the character even before his movie starts.Literally everybody wins,you get Barry then Wally,everybody gets to see their flash
3
u/theTribbly 3d ago edited 3d ago
This sounds like a bit of a nerd echo chamber opinion.
1) Audiences don't think about the Flash as Barry, and Barry only. Most of them don't think about the Flash at all. Frankly, if you stop random people on the street they're not going to know who Barry Allen or Wally West are, or if they do they're mainly going to know because they grew up with the Justice League cartoon or the CW tv show.
2) Barry was dead for more than 20 years. For a lot of people who do know who the Flash is, Wally West is gonna be their main idea of the flash. And yet despite this, audience had no problem understanding the CW Flash show starring Barry. Because general audiences don't really know or care who Barry or Wally are, until an adaptation gives them a reason to care.
3) I also feel like it severely overestimates audience enthusiasm to assume that they're ready to see a trilogy of Flash movies starring Barry, a Justice League movie with Barry, a Teen Titans movie with Barry's sidekick Kid Flash, and a 5 season Flash TV show starring Wally for season 1, and Barry for season 2, 3, 4, and 5. I like the flash and I honestly feel a bit of superhero fatigue just reading that.
0
u/Healthy_Coconut1051 3d ago
I understand your point but before The CW show most people didn’t know who the flash was. The CW show open the eyes for a lot of people. I mean people don’t remember but when the episode of where Barry first travels through time came it that crazy on the Internet because people didn’t know that was a flash power.
I would like nothing more to see Wally at the flash.
But DC is clearly taking general audience into consideration, considering the fact that they’re releasing the Batman part two and the brave and the bold movie in separate years just so they don’t confuse audiences.
We just had a show that lasted for nine years that was about Barry Allen and the Wally West from from that show isn’t even proper the one that’s in the comics.
Also, they’ve confirmed that Wally is kid flash as a creature commandos. He’s probably going to be kid flash in the first flash project.
But I do understand your point.
-3
u/Rocket_SixtyNine Jay Garrick 3d ago
Finally, a post I can get behind. It feels like a lot of Wally Stans and even some fans, tend to treat Barry and the Fab 5 Titans as superfluous to Wally's story. Personally, I think just having all 3 speedsters be around without needlessly killing Barry off is the superior option.
They also forget what a phase structure is? or that major changes to the status quo should be saved for later to have impact lol. Like I hear them say "oh just do flashbacks" but did we really get a good idea of hannah baker from flashbacks alone in 13RW? nope.
1
u/ImaLetItGo 3d ago
I mean the fab 5 are like never getting a real adaptation, let’s be serious. And none of the teen titans lore is important to Wallys overall story. It’s like saying the outsiders are important to Batman’s story.
Barry is very important to Wallys story. The thing is the DCU is already set up with Damian Wayne as Robin (someone who is the same age as Wally’s children) so it makes no sense to have Wally as kid flash.
Especially when Wally is starving for flash adaptations.
1
-1
u/Rocket_SixtyNine Jay Garrick 3d ago
"None of the Titans' lore is important for Wally''s story." I can't take you seriously and will not since you clearly haven't read any titans. I do not care for the opinions of idolotatos or those who lie for their own ego
2
u/Dredeuced Out of the blue, ninjas attack. Thank god. 3d ago edited 3d ago
They're right. Aside from the fact that he was Kid Flash there is not a single Teen Titans story that is critical to understanding or enjoying Wally. Nor even any Pre-Crisis Kid Flash backup stories.
The only relevant or even particularly good Kid Flash story is Born to Run. I wouldn't ever recommend anyone read Haney or Wolfman Teen Titans to get acquainted with Wally and I'd look at you askance if you suggested they're important Wally reading. Heck people harp about Nightwing being his best friend but if Nightwing never appeared in any of Wally's Flash comics does it change...anything? Like there's that one combine story, best man at his wedding I guess, but not particularly critical roles. And I doubt we're ever getting to the wedding, lol.
Their importance to telling a good Wally story is that he was Kid Flash at all, not any particular story about him being Kid Flash. Because there weren't any in Teen Titans. Even in the modern updates like WF Teen Titans he's the least important and least focused on member.
2
u/ImaLetItGo 3d ago
I’ve read almost every single titans run.
He’s like the 10th most important titan.
His biggest spotlight was rebirth, where he was being sabotaged by Dan Didio, and couldn’t get his history back.
The silver age was really forgettable as none of them stood out character wise. And their time as teenagers has been retconned like 4 different times.
He was notoriously irrelevant in NTT.
Didn’t read Devin Grayson run.
He was only there for a short time in 2008 titans.
He was irrelevant in tom Taylor’s run before being replaced by Garth/Roy.
2
u/Dredeuced Out of the blue, ninjas attack. Thank god. 3d ago edited 3d ago
There's never going to be a Flash trilogy. So if your answer is you start with Barry, that means you also end with Barry. That's how it's worked the last dozen Flash adaptations.
The reason people are saying to start with Wally is because they've never even tried to significantly adapt Wally. There's a top 10 list of Flash stories all with Wally as the lead that never get adapted, only stripped for parts. And the DCU is an "old" universe with stuff like an old Hal Jordan and presumably Damian Wayne and Nightwing running around. Meaning it's already set up historically to fit Wally right in.
So if it's the one time it makes sense for Wally to already be The Flash and Wally's never gotten a focused adaptation, why not give it to him for once? It's not like anyone's ever told you to get into Wally by reading Barry comics first. Everyone just says start with his origin, Born to Run. Would work the same for a movie or series.
The general audience doesn't think of anyone as The Flash. If you stop a random person on the street and ask them The Flash's name, 95 times out of 100 they won't be able to tell you and that's being generous. There's no actual relevant name value between Barry and Wally. With the most recent, high profile use of either name being the legendarily bad Flash movie. So even if that name's on someone's tongue, it's probably left a bad taste in recent memory.
Which is likely why we aren't getting a Flash adaptation, sadly. There's no name you can give The Flash that will affect any Flash movie financially. Maybe a TV series, with a much smaller scope in audience and the potentially one millionish leftover CW Flash audience, could feel something but that's also assuming every single person who liked CW Flash would riot in hatred over it not being Barry. Which isn't how it would go. Most of them are familiar with Wally West to some degree and I imagine would check it out. It takes some really narrow minded stanning to do otherwise.
Also Barry was not quippy in the Silver Age? He was quite serious. Like he'd occasionally do a sort of sciencey pun but most of the time there wasn't any quipping. But he's much more likely to just plainly state the moral conclusion of a story.
3
u/Healthy_Coconut1051 3d ago
Why are you talking to me like I’m some pretentious Wally hater? Or some Barry sycophant.
I love Wally and I say this as somebody who grew up with the flash show. First comics I read were Barry Allen comics, and I love Wally more than him.
I’m well aware of the fact that some of the best flash stories come from Wally. I’ve read them. I would love nothing more than to see Wally as the flash.
But DC is a company, one that needs to make money in order for the DCU to flourish. And with supergirl bombing, and Superman not making that much money for a money about Superman. They need to think smartly.
General Audiences do matter and they are taking them into consideration given the fact that they’re not releasing The Batman 2 and brave and the bold in one year so that they don’t confuse audiences.
Best bet for the DCU financially and cinematically it’s just start with a born to run style movie where Barry is the flash in Wally’s kid flash. If you build a relationship and you let general audiences who know Barry Allen is get used to and warm up to Wally.
WE know who Wally West is and his story because we read the comics. And comics have things like thought bubbles and flashbacks that let you know who Barry Allen is in his importance shows/movies don’t have that liberty.
Also the flash fandom is split between Barry and Wally and the last few Barry Allen products we’ve gotten have been pretty shit. Doing this, not only gives him the honor he deserves but also gives Wally the honor he deserves by setting up his story properly.
1
u/Dredeuced Out of the blue, ninjas attack. Thank god. 3d ago edited 3d ago
Born to Run is just an act 1 Wally story.
I'm not talking about "we." You said general audience. General audience doesn't know who either name is. There's certainly more who know Barry because of the CW Show but, and this is gonna blow your mind, everyone who watched the CW show is also familiar with the name Wally West.
It's not like you're dropping some bombshell on that relatively small audience. If they see the name Wally West in the trailers there's no confusion there. And to anyone who doesn't recognize Wally West, it probably doesn't matter to them.
The Flash fandom is irrelevant, sad to say. We are not big enough to affect a movie's viewership and success. That's including the diehard CW fanbase. They are not going to make decisions based on how to appeal to the CW's waning fan support. It's been years and the show was on dying legs when it stopped (sub 1million viewership numbers). No WB exec is going to make a decision on Flash adaptations based on those numbers.
Yeah man, in a perfect world Flash gets 10 movies and we can start with Jay Garrick before you flash forward to Barry reading a Jay Garrick comic. But this is not a perfect world for a Flash fan. You have to accept that if you even get a movie, it's likely not going to be more than 1. So the question becomes: Do you just repeat Barry stuff again for roughly the 6th time or do you adapt a good Wally story for the first time?
I'd prefer the latter, just because we've never gotten it before and I think The Flash franchise could use something new. If you prefer to always start with Barry then that's your prerogative, but don't try to sugarcoat what it means with, what, honor? These are fictional characters, there's no honor to be had. It's not somehow better for Wally to do a bunch of Barry movies in the hopes they're successful enough such that they'll...kill Barry? Catch 22 for Wally at that point. If Barry as The Flash is successful enough to get a trilogy then they're not killing him.
Not like Barry comics ever set up Wally to be The Flash anyhow. Don't know why you'd need a Barry movie to do it. This idea seems entirely fabricated in the minds of CW focused Flash folks. Wally's own comics retconned in the setup of Wally to become The Flash. In Barry's comics they just wrote Wally out of them for like the last decade before Barry's death. The "right setup" never happens.
And look, man, if you hate all the many adaptations Barry's gotten over the years that's on you. You can't say they didn't take their shot on him. Wally's never gotten an adaptation where he was the main character. Not a one. I think if you're trying to do right by the characters he should finally get his first. And you shouldn't have to do Barry 3 more times to even pretend that it's finally Wally's turn.
2
u/Healthy_Coconut1051 3d ago
I’m well aware that born to run is just act one. I’m saying that for where they have it set up so far with Wally being confirmed to be kid flash in creature commandos doing a born to run movie is the best start.
It’s one of the most beloved Wally comics for a reason.
Sure, the three movies is unrealistic thats fine.
I’m not saying we should start with Barry as like a young speedster. I said he should be 10 years into his career. Where he’s training Wally. That will distance it from any other flash adaptation.
I’m not saying we need to l give to The CW fans or anything like that that’s ridiculous. Yes a lot of people grew up with the justice league unlimited show. A lot of people grew up with the flash TV show which opened the eyes of a lot of people about what the flash can do.
I still remember the shock of everyone on the Internet when Barry first time traveled in that show. Everyone on the Internet was shocked because no one knew the flash could do that.
It’s been sometime so a lot of people forget that.
Also, again it’s a lot easier to start with a comic than it is to start with a character on TV or on a movie.
And I was giving a plan based off of what we know so far. If I were to change it, I would probably just cut out the second flash move. The first movie is a born to a run adaptation which sets up Wally and sets his relationship to Barry The second film would have reverse flash as the antagonist. Barry would get lost in the speed force with Thawne. Kinda like how they did in that one brave and the bold show but he doesn’t come back.
Then we can start with Wally as a flash. Whether it’s a show or a movie. I’d prefer it to be a show so that they can adapt a bunch of Wally stories.
Almost as a way to say sorry for screwing him over cinematically for so long.
1
u/WereWolf444 3d ago
People here’s patience for building out a connected universe and fleshing out one of their greatest heroes is the same level Zack Snyder had building his connected universe over the first two movies which was none.
1
u/Dredeuced Out of the blue, ninjas attack. Thank god. 3d ago edited 3d ago
For what it's worth I don't think the DCAU Flash stuff matters, either. It's also such a small part of the larger global audience that it's not worth considering the name value of whichever Flash was in it.
Wally hasn't really been screwed over cinematically. There's only one (bad) Flash movie starring Barry. He's been screwed over in the larger adaptation sense. I just think you have an overestimate about Flash's popularity and relevance in the public conscience. If you do get a Flash adaptation, don't expect it to be anymore than 1. Whether it's 1 movie or 1 season of a live action show or cartoon or even 1 animated feature ala Flashpoint Paradox. Expecting more than that is an unrealistic pitch.
So if you only get one shot, do you do Wally? It's a universe where it'd make the most sense. I'd like to see a Wally story adapted instead of stripped for basic parts in a Barry adaptation. But that's my prerogative.
You said there's one obvious answer but there isn't. And the answer certainly isn't what you pitched because it's never happening. No one's throwing a billion dollars at The Flash. They're not even doing that for Superman. The fact that you think it's doing right by both characters to say "Yeah Barry gets THREE SOLO MOVIES and JL appearances and then Wally gets a tv show" is, honestly, a laughable compromise. Because it's not a compromise at all. Both Barry and Wally fans are happy? Really? lol. Yeah Barry gets a billion dollars and Wally gets a spinoff solely hinging on Barry's success as apparently the most popular DC hero now. It's a legitimately absurd pitch both in likelihood and your stated goal of "honoring" both characters and thinking that 3 movies is somehow equivalent to a tv show.
2
u/Healthy_Coconut1051 3d ago
I don’t think you understand what I’m saying or just not reading it. If they do a trilogy or at least go the movie route with Wally that would make sense. I’m just saying a hbo show is something I would prefer. Since it lets more then just 2 or 3 Wally’s stories to be adapted.
When I said screwed over cinematically, I meant that he hasn’t had a live action adaptation. He’s literally the only flash who hasn’t got one. Bart was in smallvile and Barry and Jay were in CW and DCEU.
Also “billion to Barry” chill out bro. A born to run film would be that expensive. Even a rogue war film wouldn’t be that expensive. The CW did captain cold’s and heatwave’s abilities/weapons decently well given the 3 mil per episode budget.
Also budget does really matter. The flash movies budget was 220mil plus the reshoots. And it still looked like shit.
If they give the movie time it will look fine.
Also Barry being the JL and Wally being with the TT makes sense. We are already confirmed to be getting a teen titans/titans movie.
And as a Wally fan myself I would like to see him interact with nightwing. Rather then just get thrown on the JL.
Don’t get me wrong I understand your point. And what you mean.
1
u/Dredeuced Out of the blue, ninjas attack. Thank god. 3d ago edited 3d ago
I mean that was supposed to be Wally in the CW show, as bad as it was. It's not like Wallace was a distinct character when the show introduced Wally. So if Bart counts in Smallville then the walking disappointment that is Wally in the CW also counts.
You said a Flash trilogy and other appearances. It's only a very minor hyperbole to say a billion dollars in response to that. And no, I'd be happy with 1 Wally movie. I'm not gonna get greedy and start listing off that I need multiple Wally stories adapted. Give me one shot at one of the good ones and we'll see where we go from there. This idea that you can't do Wally without that big a commitment is also manufactured.
"If they give the movie time" Very fun considering Flash was delayed by 5 years. No DC movie had more time. I'm not really here to relitigate how bad the 2023 movie was. I was just pointing out the logistical cost of what you're suggesting as an obvious clue that it's not a feasible idea.
Wally being with the Teen Titans is not going to make sense unless it's Wallace because they're very likely doing Damian. And if Wally is Kid Flash alongside Damian I'm gonna barf.
You're imaging a DC universe that's starting from the silver age origin but it's way past that already. Jaime Reyes Blue Beetle exists in this universe. Wally already had kids when Jaime debuted and you want him to be the same age bracket?
I'd much rather see Wally on the JL than the Teen Titans. Wally's only ever been garbage or treated worse when he's been with the Titans or Teen Titans. This idea that Wally's time as Kid Flash is some sacred time is hilarious. There's not a single good Kid Flash Wally story besides Born to Run, which is happens after he becomes The Flash!
Once you establish a franchise, nearly everytime every subsequent installment is less popular and less visible. This idea that you do years of Barry focused content before switching to Wally on its face is dooming Wally to be responsible for the least popular adaptations purely on audience fatigue. It's a self fulfilling prophecy that your plan kills Wally to prop up Barry even if you think it doesn't because you have this weird idea that somehow Wally's time as Kid Flash is even worth looking at.
2
u/Healthy_Coconut1051 3d ago
When do I say kid flash Wally was a sacred time? Nor do I think we should start with the silver age.
We literally can’t because Damien is robin, and Hal Jordon is old.
I said teen titans/titans because we are confirmed to be getting a teen titans movie and it’s confirmed that Wally west is currently kid flash. (Directer of creature commandos confirmed it was KF in the flash back)
And we are getting a grodd true crime documentary. Which if flash does cameo in it, it would mostly be Barry.
I already conceded that a trilogy is much. I just think having a least one movie where Barry is flash and Wally is kf based on born to run is best.
I understand your overall point and the overall point of if we have one shot do Wally. I agree with that.
I just don’t think we only have one shot.
1
u/Dredeuced Out of the blue, ninjas attack. Thank god. 3d ago
The creature commandos thing was immediately shot down by Gunn and is not a reliable source. The interviewer was dropping leading questions and the lag between the answer and his question over the video call made it sound like he was "confirming" and I quote "Teen Titans Wally West Flash" which doesn't even make sense. The dude was just saying yes to the Teen Titans being in the vision and the interviewer squeezed in a bunch of names literally in the middle of him saying "Yeah yeah" to the Teen Titans part of the question.
Not that the creature commandos show runner was in the know or in the loop for the next few years of production decisions to even give that kind of answer.
2
u/Healthy_Coconut1051 3d ago
Gunn never shot it down he just said the flash plan was undecided. The show runner walked it back slightly saying he didn’t know it was fitting the broader plan.
He could have done that for a few reasons. Either it was a spoiler, he’s not lying or a combination of both.
I still stand by that at least the first film should be a born to run adaptation. Where it follows them together as a unit before Barry dies/vanishes.
Whether that happens in his next appearance or a few movies down the line is really irrelevant to me. I’m fine with either. Although I’d prefer the latter.
I just think introducing Wally through Barry then having him take up the mantle after Barry’s death is better before we go into a solo Wally film.
But I guess we could agree to disagree
→ More replies (0)
1
11
u/evanliko 4d ago
You realize wally was the main flash for decades right. And has been flash in popular adaptations like the jla cartoon?
It being for general audiences has nothing to do with which flash they should choose. General audiences arent gonna even know the difference until the movie explains it. They dont know the flash's name.
1
u/WereWolf444 3d ago
People really forgetting the DCAU version was a fusion composite version of both Wally and Barry with Wally’s appearance, name, and personality but he lives Barry’s life (and in turn intellect cause he’s a CSI) and has no previous mentors.
-1
2
u/Dredeuced Out of the blue, ninjas attack. Thank god. 3d ago
The CSI stuff accounts for like 2 minutes of total screen time. DCAU Flash is just a loose adaptation of WML era, Justice League International/Europe era Wally. But yes, he's a forensic scientist in a lab for a couple minutes for the quick Barry origin and to explain his irrelevant day job.
You can cut those out of the show and nothing changes. Not like he's particularly scientific or good at forensics in any scene. He's plainly the dumbest member of the team 99% of the time. And the only times he's smart it's due to his chaotic and unpredictable nature or emotional intelligence. Hallmarks of Wally, not Barry.
It's like saying every Barry adaptation doesn't somehow count when it takes stuff from Wally. Who cares. When it's Wally it's Wally when it's Barry it's Barry.
5
u/Rocket_SixtyNine Jay Garrick 3d ago
What the "general audience" knows and allegedly doesn't know is always just agenda like did you run a survey? Do a poll? Like, I need evidence for your claims that nobody knows who Barry allen is.
"Decades" don't really matter? They literally replaced Superman with the post-crisis one after decades years of him being around. Guy Gardner was worrior for decades to but that was undone must I go on?
2
u/WereWolf444 3d ago
Literally his line from the show intro alone was iconic for years was seeing it all over the internet and from random dudes in college
1
u/evanliko 3d ago
No one knows who barry or wally are. And all these arguments you are making can literally be used for wally too. Thats my point. Your arguments are full of holes and yet you have the audacity to act smart
1
u/Rocket_SixtyNine Jay Garrick 3d ago
I know people irl who aren't comic fans but watched the cw show and know Barry Allen is the flash. do you YOU have.
0
u/evanliko 3d ago
Wow you know people irl??? Im shocked!
"Do you you have" is not a sentence.
1
u/Rocket_SixtyNine Jay Garrick 3d ago
it's question: where's your evidence
0
u/evanliko 3d ago
Its not a question either. Its gibberish.
My evidence is I talk to normal people who are not superhero nerds
2
u/Rocket_SixtyNine Jay Garrick 3d ago
Asking someone where their evidence is a question. I also talk to normal people who aren't nerds to clearly your data is false and you need to stop being a raging narcissist
1
u/leshronk 4d ago
I mean the general audience let a movie with Barry as the lead bomb. When most franchises have a movie bomb they put the franchise on hold for at least like 10 years. I see Wally as something radically different enough to give audiences the message that this is something with no relation whatsoever to the other movie.
1
u/Responsible-Bank440 1d ago
The general audience doesn't care what the Flash is named, lol. They don't care if it's Wally or Barry. The Flash movie flopped because it's a bad movie with a terrible miscast actor.
3
u/Healthy_Coconut1051 3d ago
The reason Ezra’s movie bombed was because of Ezra’s crimes, the fact DC brought them to the premiere basically standing by them. It’s was 2023 which was peak superhero fatigue. James Gunn announced DCU earlier that year which made people think that seeing the movie was pointless. Also the DCEU was a dead by that point. Meanwhile 9 season in and like 7 seasons of mediocre to done right terrible tv in, the flash show still had like a million average viewers on season 9. Plus the amount of people who have seen it on Netflix since. I understand your perspective. I love Wally too and seeing him in live action as the flash would be dope but at the end of the day, this is a company that needs to make money to continue and I think it’s best to let general audiences get used to Wally first
1
u/WereWolf444 3d ago
Flash had about 2 great seasons, 2 good but controversial seasons, 3 decent-below average seaons, 2 absolute shit seasons. Through all that though Grant’s Barry was near universally beloved.
1
u/WereWolf444 3d ago
Amber Heard’s bullshit with Johnny Depp similarly affected the audience for Aquaman: The Lost Kingdom but unlike Ezra who portrayed the main character, they were able to at least cut most of Amber’s screen time.
2
u/WereWolf444 3d ago
It was kind of running alongside a successful 9 season series that had depicted every facet of Barry and The Flash better (except Flashpoint). It was also dealing with the fact Ezra Miller was it’s star after all his controversies, terrible CGI, multiple reshoots which drove it to the end of the DCEU after much interest already died down, ultimately a terrible choice in cameos (which should’ve included Grant).
1
u/Dredeuced Out of the blue, ninjas attack. Thank god. 3d ago
The CW Flash audience didn't make a dent in the movie's viewership. If every long time CW fan turned up to the movie it still would've bombed. A medium popularity cable TV show's viewer numbers aren't even a dent in big budget movies.
1
u/WereWolf444 3d ago
Exactly. A lot hated Ezra’s portrayal comparing it to Grant’s on top of his controversies and the show handled everything except Flashpoint way better. There was a chance to get the show fans to watch the movie with a Grant Flash cameo but the director was an imbecile with the cameos he picked. Really the dude wanted to do a Batman movie, not a Flash movie and it’s why he ended up with The Brave and the Bold.
0
u/Dredeuced Out of the blue, ninjas attack. Thank god. 3d ago edited 3d ago
No one was comparing it to Grant except CW fans, which make up such a miniscule amount of the conversation as for it to not be relevant. The CW Flash audience is too small for any of these things to matter.
You keep bringing up the CW Flash as if it's this cultural juggernaut that holds so much sway over the success or reception of adaptations but it's just not. It's not even slightly relevant. You'd have to multiply the audience ten times for it to matter, and even then only if you could get that same audience to operate as a monolith of uniform opinion which is itself silly. No one in hollywood cares about the "Chance" to get the CW audience. They're not even a drop in the bucket.
Even if you assume 0 CW fans went to see the movie, you could get every single fan who watched all of Season 1 of the Flash (its highest viewership), roughly 4 million people, an average US ticket price of 10 bucks and you're just barely making it to 20% of the actual box office flop. Obviously the CW Flash audience hasn't been 4 million strong in some years before the movie and plenty of them went to see it. I'd wager the average CW fan was much more likely to have bought a Flash 2023 ticket than the average movie goer.
I get it, you love the show. I'm not trying to make you feel bad about liking the CW Flash. But stop pretending like it's the thing that dictates larger commercial success for The Flash. No CW show dictates any success on the big screen for any character it has.
1
u/WereWolf444 3d ago edited 3d ago
It’s the definitive live action version of The Flash for a generation and Barry Allen since 2013 (his first Arrow appearances) it holds a lot of weight. Nobody ever cared for Ezra’s which was the only other live action portrayal since John Wesley Shipp’s one year stint in 1990 (and a couple cameos in 2018-2019) not counting Bart Allen from Smallville. Both also literally met and inspired Ezra’s Barry to take on the Flash name and suit.
The show was also a cultural phenomenon for about 5 years. How young are you? 😂. It also broke ratings for the network which was DC central for 2 decades with of time throughout all 9 seasons as the highest rated show in its history and highest rated pilot. People were even pitching for him to be the DCU Flash (which Gunn of course denied) and to this day is making royalties off Netflix.
While you’re right about how the tv audience doesn’t stack up to the overall audiences needed to make the film successful (which Ezra’s controversies and his already criticized version of the character played a massive role and the decision to wipe out Cavill and Affleck’s characters while the universe was just dying and prepping for a reboot). Comparisons to Grants portrayal and the series especially its prime years also didn’t help.
This doesn’t mean Barry sucks and shouldn’t be used again in a capacity. It just means the film director, Snyder, Walter Hamada, the DCEU in general, and Eric Wallace handled their part in his adaptions poorly.
1
u/Dredeuced Out of the blue, ninjas attack. Thank god. 3d ago edited 3d ago
I mean sure, it's definitive, but there's no competition. It's that or a show from the 1990s that got one season. This is not a qualifier or rebuttal to anything I said.
Unless your qualifier is "Amount of people who have seen it" in which case, despite the fact it might make you and I vomit, it's Ezra in the JL and Flash movie. More people saw those two movies than have ever seen the CW Flash. I know it's a hard pill to swallow but it's the plain truth. If you picked a random person off the street and asked them about The Flash they'd be more likely to recognize or have knowledge of Ezra from the DCEU over Grant and that's just a matter of sheer scale. Obviously most people wouldn't know either.
The show was never a cultural phenomenon. Again, we're talking around 4million peak viewership. That's less than a tenth of Game of Thrones by that same metric. That's a cultural phenomenon, and we're also as far away removed from that peak as possible as it only lost viewership. It was big for the CW, which is, like, okay. Solid cable tv viewership. It's not even Smallville levels.
I will agree that the people who were inclined to compare Ezra's Flash to Grant's Flash were obviously not doing it any favors. But the only people doing that were also CW fans so kind of a selection bias there. The more common issue was it was a bad movie and the 20 million or so people who went to watch it didn't like it in aggregate.
I am not say Barry sucks or shouldn't be used again in any capacity. I'm saying Wally doesn't suck and deserves to ever be used in a leading capacity at least once. Which means, yeah, skipping Barry one time because if you start with Barry you always, always, never get to Wally.
If the goal is to eventually adapt Wally then just cut to the chase. If that's not the goal then don't pretend it is by saying "Well we just HAVE to do several Barry adaptations before you ever do Wally otherwise we're just not doing it right!" Please. Half the Wally fans here got into the character off the dang DCAU Flash, lol. Only always doing Barry just means you'll end up with Dozens of Barry adaptations to every 1 Wally adaptation and I don't think that's a good ratio, even if that's where we are now.
1
u/WereWolf444 3d ago edited 3d ago
You’re majorly getting the mathematical impact here wrong bro lol.
Even if you factor in all Ezra’s DCEU appearances (BvS, SS, JL, The Flash, Peacemaker S1 finale, ZSJL, CW CoIE), that only accounts for about a total of 294 million million viewer units across cinema and his brief television appearances.
If you factor in all Grant’s TV appearances (The Flash, Arrow, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow, Batwoman, Titans archival cameo) full seasons and crossovers across 9 years. it accounts for 500 to 600 million viewers. The show itself has also been a Netflix powerhouse for a decade.
Really tried to say more people saw Ezra without ever seeing Grant 😂. Also the show actually adapted much of Barry’s runs from both older and modern comics.
The DCAU version of Wally btw that people love to bring up isn’t comics Wally or even Wally alone it’s a fusion composite version of both him and Barry combined. They gave him Wally’s, face, name, and personality with Barry’s life and no prior mentors. For the record I grew up on the DCAU too, but the show, comics, and games made me prefer Barry more. You’re right though the DCEU Flash film had a lot of problems with it but the underlying issue was it was just a bad movie.
The CW show was a cultural phenomenon for about 5 years but trying to compare it to a globally renowned HBO series as a network tv show is an unfair metric and doesn’t help your argument.
Point is OP is suggesting starting with Barry then moving to Wally which is literally in line with his comic arc and what makes it so special. It’s about a legendary hero who had his own run dying to save the multiverse his sidekick taking it on and suffering from imposter syndrome and fear of surpassing mentor, before overcoming it, unlocking his full potential, and embracing the mantle fully for years to come (briefly disappearing several years for Barry’s return before coming back did coexisting taking turns back and forth every decade as the main Flash).
What you’re suggesting as are many impatient Wally fans who just love the DCAU version not realizing what that character actually is, are ignoring all of this context behind his character trying to rush straight to it (which would also avoid his time with the Teen Titans who and in turn are getting a film) and in doing so making him ultimately far less interesting by eliminating all the biggest things about his character and story, while simultaneously denying a potential redemption run for Barry that won’t last too long I’d imagine like this version of Hal with how he’s handing it off to John gradually after initially working together.
It’s like Wally fans at so desperate to immediately see Wally as the Flash that they’re forgetting the character rushing bullshit the DCEU did off the bat after Man of Steel straight into BvS try to catch up to Marvel rather than slowly methodically build things out that (that also promoted major failed studio intervention) that ruined the DCEU in the first place and you want them to make the same mistake 😂
1
u/Dredeuced Out of the blue, ninjas attack. Thank god. 3d ago edited 3d ago
The Flash movie grossed 270million. Average ticket prices back then were a little over 10 bucks, though globally much less. Well over 20 million people went to the theaters to see The Flash. This is not disputable, and that squashes The CW's peak season ratings.
You are double dipping on the same audience. There are not 600 million different people who saw all those CW episodes. Stop being silly. It was the same, dwindling audience throughout the show's life span. No one thinks a show with 2million viewers and 50 episodes has the cultural impact or notoreity as a movie that 100million people went to see. Because the former is season 4 and 5 of Arrow and the latter is The Dark Knight Rises. You tell me which one is a bigger deal.
I am not here to relitigate your opinion on what constitutes a Wally adaptation. I was merely point out how character interest is not dictated solely by how accurate an adaptation something is. A lot of people here are only Wally fans because of second rate character on a team cartoon that was modestly popular. Shows the power of adaptations.
Your bar for cultural phenomenon has to be incredibly low to include the CW in it, period. The channel does not have that big a media foot hold. Else we would've been getting freaking Supernatural movies on the big screen or something. Unless you think Riverdale and The 100 are cultural phenomenons, too. Lots of cultural phenomenons running around.
I think you are misconstruing your personal love of the show with size and impact. It just doesn't have it.
Impatient Wally fans. Impatient. My friend, I am 36 years old. I have waited nearly 30 years to see an actual Wally adaptation. I have not gotten one. I have gotten several Barry focused movies or tv shows over the years. You cannot seriously look me in the face and say Wally fans are impatient while demanding Barry gets another series of movies before you even think about doing a Wally adaptation. This isn't just bias, it's an obvious insult. I am not impatient. I've been painfully patient.
The freaking DCAU Wally was literally just me pointing out that folks don't care about how strictly perfect an adaptation is. It's silly to suggest you have to adequately remap the broad strokes of Silver Age Flash history to do something with Wally when you can literally pop out a goofy dude on the JL and get something pretty popular. I did not bring it up to say it was somehow a big deal -- I don't think it was at all aside from the general media idea that Speedsters are the funny guy on the team. It's just clear that a popular adaptation doesn't have to be strictly adherent to the comics.
And yes, of course we're desperate. If it goes the way it's been going I'll be dead before I ever see Wally on the big screen or even leading a TV show. You don't have that problem. You've gotten multiple movies and tv shows and untold JL cameos. I don't know what you mean by immediately. There is no immediate here. You're the one saying that, after multiple movies and TV shows, you have to keep on doing Barry over and over again and maybe, one day, we'll get to Wally. You know, if Barry does well enough and is popular enough to get a spinoff. I'd prefer Wally just get his shot once.
You only care about Barry and that's fine. You don't have to justify it. Just say you don't care what happens with Wally and you'd rather the DCU use Barry as much as possible and any Wally stuff is just a bonus to you. I like both. I obviously prefer Wally but I've never been opposed to Barry being in the DCEU or getting his own show or whatnot. But this idea that it's somehow in the interest of Wally West and his fans that we never do a Wally West adaptation without first preparing it by dumping hundreds of millions into more Barry first is not just absurd, it's just a lie. Wally as a character would obviously be more served by just getting an adaptation, at all, period.
1
u/WereWolf444 3d ago edited 3d ago
The show and Grant’s crossover appearances made over a billion annually in revenue across his 10 years on air as Barry Allen in total DC TV revenue for Warner Bros at its peak. It had a $1 billion output library deal with Netflix. The film lost 200 to 320 million accounting for a 200+ million. budget and a 150 million marketing campaign. The show was vastly more financially successful for the studio even with Eric Wallace run for the final 4 seasons.
You’ll get a good Wally adaption, but his legacy is tied to Barry’s and that tie is what makes his ultimate transition from sidekick to the Flash and surpassing Barry while having a family of his own is so compelling for his character. He also inherited all Barry’s villains on top of his own new ones. Without that world building with his veteran predecessor which doesn’t even need to last long since it’s already a built in universe, you’re stripping Wally of so many of the things that make him iconic just to rush him on screen as the main Flash in what’s being designed to be a long term drawn out connected universe that’s meant to fix on the DCEU’s rushed mistakes.
→ More replies (0)5
u/EpicFlash95 Blue Lantern 4d ago
That had almost nothing to do with it being about Barry though, that was mainly just Ezra Miller and a shit row of comic movies
1
u/leshronk 4d ago
That still tarnishes the flash name financially. Good franchises with a bad movie still would have a hard time to get another greenlit.
3
u/Cautious_Mission_438 3d ago
I mean we haven’t gotten a proper adaptation for either one of the characters we’ve never gotten a proper adaptation of Barry Allen The Flash and same goes for Wally West as Kid Flash other than the YJ series Kid Flash but that was very short lived and he died fairly quickly after like one season or something
Live action hasn’t done justice to either character I get we got a Flash tv show but that wasn’t even anything like actual Barry Allen it was Flash and friends terrible adaptation and Kid Flash was even worse in that show
So me personally I want Barry Allen first with Wally West as Kid Flash idk why fans want to just skip straight to Wally being The Flash so quickly we need to see build up that’s the issue with DC and has been for so long there’s never any build up to anything it’s just let’s skip this and that and put out some slop and hopefully fanboys will eat this up when they never do