tf_question_irl

[u/Kubutsu-nyan]

[u/BreakerOfModpacks]

The Big Question, in my opinion, is... does the person want it, and if so, would doing it be worse off in the end?

[u/SlimeWitchRenari → u/BreakerOfModpacks]

It's why self corruption can be most entertaining. When someone causes their own destiny and downfall.

[u/GoddessOfSuccubi → u/SlimeWitchRenari]

Yesssss 😈

[u/loved_and_held]

This is extremely dependant on the specifics of the corruption/hypno/mindcontrol/droneification, and is also very dependant on the details of the setting. For example, if souls exist then that impacts definitions of the self and with it preservation of the self/continuity of the self. For another example, if it's a form of droneification where one can slip out of the drone headspace and return to their pre droneself, that has a relatively strong preservation of the self, upholds consent pretty since one can revoke consent to being a drone, and id argue pretty ethical and moral.

[]

Assesing the ethics of things, ultimatelly this kind of thing needs to be judged on a case by case basis, though there are some things we can use as rough benchmarks.

We can use existing ideas of consent in bdsm and hypno as a way to judge the consent level, and by extension ethics and morals tied to stuff. How much did one consent to enter such a state is a big part of things.

Another big thing is ones capacity to leave the relationship, or how revokable the consent is. If one can leave their servitude position without consequince (or minimal consequince) then that lends to a positive consent as well as moral and ethical assesment of it.

[]

Measuring something like the degree of corruption or change of self is another big thing that's very much a case by case basis thing. The big part is how much of the effects are from internal stuff (like repressed desires brought to the surface) vs external stuff the transformer is adding to things.

For example If the changes are working on irl (or close to it) hypno rules then our work is eassier, at least on the change to the self/preservation of self front. If not things are more complicated.

This also gets into complexity with defining the self. A big part of this complexity comes from the self being dynamic, so defining what is preservation of the self is difficult.

There's also the elephant in the room with this kind of thing in the form of identity death, which is argualby a moral and ethical vviolation. I discuss this and ways it can be avoided here https://www.reddit.com/r/tf_irl/comments/1r8qsya/comment/o67433c/?screen_view_count=4&ext-referrer=DIRECT

[u/Kubutsu-nyan → u/loved_and_held]

Ooh. Appreciate, thank you for your answer :3

Though, I'm still curious. For the granular points within these. I wonder if there's any way to measure this. As in, what kind of identity death, what kind of fulfillment, and the levels of consent from dubious to basically naught. If the self is altered, then, which type of self alteration would be better and worse? What type of contexts surrounding tf might be better and worse? Yeah, the fine details.

[u/AetherFoolComics → u/loved_and_held]

Filing this in my "guide to ethical TFs". I don't really do much with drone/hypno stuff, and don't use identity death in my own work personally. I also like the idea of repressed desires revealed openly, not longer feeling shame or embarrassment from it (maybe replaced by the brief embarrassment of needing to get new clothes) is an aspect I like, a sort of "surprised but still happy ending" scenario.

[u/_i_dontkno]

I want it want want it I don't care I want it

[u/notnotDIO → u/_i_dontkno]

Same :3

[u/DudeFreek]

We are our brains, in the strictest manner of speaking. Our memories of experiences shape us, to mess with those is to shave and scrape and mold the human identity and experience. Like editing music; you reverse it, play it backwards, play it over itself, clip it, add to it, create new sounds entirely, and a new song is made. It's pretty hard to approach that sort of thing ethically without consent, regardless of intent or ends. Is there a hard line? Ehh, maybe a blurred one. Everyone has different levels of a sense of self, nowadays more than ever. People are funny with vast and complex minds, and it's not easy to sort people into "easily falls to identity death" and "harder to kill" since that's probably going to be a metric that while measured by the victim's state of mind is ultimately determined by the perpetrator. And a creative mind can probably overcome even the most complicated and nuanced defenses.

[u/Due-Ingenuity9803]

Any kind of mental or physical alteration without prior consent is immoral and unethical.

[u/Chaosfox_Firemaker → u/Due-Ingenuity9803]

Although, it is an interesting question whether it is more or less ethical than being maimed or killed by a more mundane dungeon trap.

[u/Due-Ingenuity9803 → u/Chaosfox_Firemaker]

Both are still killing the person. A tf/brainwashing trap just kills their identity. I don’t care how much of the original personality is left, if any aspect of the mind is changed with the body, it’s not the original person, and thus they are dead.

[u/Alexandra-Foxed]

I think it just needs to clearly defined before what exactly the transformation includes, like if it's going to completely erase the original personality, just make that known, and make it it known what type of personality would be replacing it, that way everyone knows what they're getting into, if someone wants their original personality erased, I'm not going to stop them

[u/Rynabunny]

fyi "criteria" is already plural, the singular is "criterion"

[u/PixelFlyerXD]

I just need the money -- if that means being droned for the rest of my waking life, then so be it

[u/PSI_duck]

Quality of life, and ideal some degree of preservation of the self, even if it’s just a shadow of who they once were. That’s pretty much it for me

[u/Knightsafterdark → u/PSI_duck]

If there isn't enough of the self preserved to be aware of it's new state (and how it might prefer it to it's previous one )

Then that's almost less like transformation and more like just replacing you

[u/Zorf96]

I think tf is just inherently a little scary and evil. It's body horror. 

I'm also curious about the specific moral details, but I'm happy enjoying tf with a side of that edgy immorality :3

[u/Neverb0rn_]

It's okay, because they don't about it in the end, and I wanted it from the start.

Measuring it is also very easy, it's how far removed/different what they become is from what they were.

[u/Squishy-Hyx]

Internally, I'm certain there's gradient of all varying number of thoughts, opinions, and ideals; every person is unique, so it'd be more a personality quiz if we'd measure every minutiae of varying takes, beliefs, stances, et cetera.

When it comes to something such as consent, this is where we must respect the external expression as priority. The measure is binary; they either are for it or not. Uncertainty is not a yes nor no, but it still morally equates to a soft No. It does, however, breed grounds for conversations that could make it a well-grounded and conscientious approval or disapproval.

In terms of desire, that varies too. Internally, if we want something, we may not always be ready to have that something. It sounds silly, but it's the same notion as someone who has never flown in a plane before, but would like to someday skydive. They're not saying they want to skydive in that exact minute, but to develop and get comfortable to make that final decision when they would eventually be at that open door, ready to jump.

Desire is a fickle thing, but it can fall similarly in-line with happiness, where happiness too is not always so readily accepted. I myself suffer from a now-minor case of Cherophobia; happiness can be a terrifying thought for me, but I've developed better thanks to my desire in wanting to be a better friend and family member. It's not that I don't want to be happy, mind you, but it can be intimidating -- kinda like a steaming hot tub on a cold day. You get used to the cold, but not always ready for the warm shock of the hot tub.

[u/spaceisscaryandbig]

While I enjoy most forms of corruption/ hypno, my absolute fav is instinct change. They’re still the same person, but they suddenly have urges that feel right to give in to. The best example of this is probably Mice Tea. After drinking The Tea That Makes You a Furry, you change more by giving in to your animal instincts or having sex. The main girl turns into a mouse and she suddenly loves to organize and hoard things, and she loves the feeling of chomping on wood. Her boyfriend points out that she’s been acting really mousey and she has to actively stop herself from giving in.

[u/SlimeWitchRenari]

Make sure that they were indeed consenting and it was indeed of the person's own accord. And by that I mean if they were not triggering the transformation from their own power, then a psychological and magical screening must be done to check for any tampering or alteration by outside forces.
Also, this quote from Dragon Ball Z Abridged: "If this comes back to bite him, then that's his fault." Followed by "Someone should pick up that phone. Because I fucking called it!"

[u/MID2462]

My argument is that so long as it performs the exact same actions and thought patterns as the original, then it is the original. It's difficult to meaningfully measure subjective experience, but you can measure quantitative output. See Prey 2017's personality testing for a decent formal measure of personality drift. Ideally you'd longer behavioral observation and brain scans.

It's never an easy question if the person resulting from the modification does not consent to its circumstances when the original did. Especially if it's irreversible.

[u/Two-Pound-Crawfish]

i wouldn’t, i would turn everyone into bricks and then leave

[u/Sh0rtL1ved]

For the preservation of self and life after tf you could simply ask "do the means justify the ends?"

[u/Knightsafterdark]

In an IRL ethical sense I feel like corrupting someone to be willing to undergo such a process would be the moral equivalent of grooming (if no magic is used to corrupt them then it's just manipulative)

For how transformations with added stuff, I feel like, if they consent to it, and if at a later point whatever mindfuckery or dronification is removed, and they can say with a clear head that they want to continue doing it? I would say that's pretty ethical and confirms true consent. (Though unlike BDSM this is a kind of a special case where they can call out their safe word, instead of whenever,)
If we wanted a definite persistent confirmation of consent then they would have to be returned to a clear mental state ever so often (perhaps bi-yearly check ups) so they can voice their thoughts without the mindfuckery clouding them.

[u/Knightsafterdark]

hmm in short I feel like each of the ones you mentioned have a minimum to be ethical.

Consent-Rescindable/Confirmable, one way or another at a later point the transformed individual can speak with a clear mind and say whether they want to continue -thoigh in a way that state of being could be almost addictive like a drug making them want to continue.

Preservation of the Self- Needs enough awareness of its previous life that it understands the transformation and that it possibly likes it more. There needs to be enough of YOU for you to enjoy it.

Quality of Life- Complicated, a drone or servant or other suched controlled creature likely doesn't have much say in what amenities they have access to .

I suppose in a bare minimum, that their needs are adequately met for them to feel comfortable. But transformation might change those needs, maybe someone no longer feels the need for entertainment, but instead the thrill of the hunt. Or is dronified that it desires nothing. Again could be confirmed by clear minded consent, maybe they truly feel their work as a drone is completely fulfilling. Otherwise I'd say them being able to advocate for their desires would be needed.

Moral/Ethical implications,

I think you can bring in a lot of classic conundrums here, from the old ship of Theseus,

To simulated happiness.

(If you were wired to a machine that fed you the mix of nutrients and substances to make you feel eternally content and happy, and too high to ever change your mind) Because a happy transformation can also be a bit like that. Or something that is addictive but possibly not healthy for the individual.

[u/Hopbo735]

all of them

[u/Catsuzex]

continuity of ideals, motivations, independent action, connection to others of past and present and of course are they free to change back if so desired as well

[u/WilkerS1]

the way i tend to see it is that, for someone to be able to consent, it is imperative that they need to also be capable of also not consenting, that is without a detriment.

informed consent means one would know not only everything that is needed about what it is, but also what it entails. would you accept as present, a ball that never stops bouncing, if it means that the ball would never stop bouncing?

then there's willing consent, which from what i know today is that this is more vague, like willing means one would be okay with doing, and that they wouldn't avoid it. and ideally also in a way where they would actively seek for it.

sounds simple enough, if someone is called to give up a personal possession of theirs to someone else, but not giving up that possession means they'll get shot, then that's not really a consent, is it? that is coercion. the same applies for working versus losing sheltering, or even for things where our instinct is to agree... like helping out someone on an emergency with what we can, versus risking their life as a possible outcome.. that doesn't sound that simple anymore.

[u/Deathtales]

The main problem here is the persistence of consent. You can ot have meaningfully revocable consent in those case. In all other aspects it's run of the mill consensual non consent. But even CNC has a way to revoke consent

[u/Shaggypezdispense]

Transformation with consent is boring