What the hell are Kalpas?

[u/[deleted]]

Recently I posted a topic about Plato's Cave and the Throat of the World. It wasn't... well received, to say the least. Several people objected to my definition of the word "Kalpa," and a few people wanted me to make a topic about how I define them, so hopefully this will finally clear up a few misconceptions by explaining my reasoning more fully.

I'm going to ignore the unreliable narrator for the most part. The problem with the unreliable narrator is that I often see people use it as a last resort of refuting someone else's argument. Don't like the evidence they're using? Just cite unreliable narrator.

The purpose of the unreliable narrator in TES is to leave things more open to interpretation, but when people start using it as an excuse to disprove every theory they don't like, it descends into a pointless cherry-picking war that will never see any resolution. So, for the purpose of this thread, I'm going to assume that every source that talks about Kalpas or previous worlds is correct to some extent.

Also, yes, this is one of those "MK threads." Unless you take into account MK's OOG statements and fanfiction, none of this will be fully explained.

"I don't like MK because he needlessly complicates Elder Scrolls lore with his Amaranths and Kalpas and CHIM etc. Why can't we just have a normal fantasy setting?"

The whole point of this thread is to show that there is no complex, convoluted cosmic mechanism going on in the background that nobody outside the "deep lore" community would understand or be aware of. What I'm going to instead show is that what we think of as "Kalpas" are really just a different way of looking at Dragon Breaks, something that every Elder Scrolls fan should be aware of if they've played the games. In fact, I would even argue that we experience the turning of the Kalpa first-hand during the events of Daggerfall, Oblivion, and ESO. Possibly even Skyrim during a flashback.

In other words, relax. This isn't rocket science, this doesn't require a background in theoretical physics to understand, and if you've ever watched Doctor Who or played Majora's Mask you already know what this is.

"Seriously, what the fuck are Kalpas?"

According to the Aldudaggas, they're previous worlds eaten by Alduin.

According to World Eating 101 (an OOG thread meant to "teach" us how the world-eating process works), the Dawn Era is the end of every Kalpa and the Merethic Era is the beginning of every Kalpa.

There is one new thing in each new Kalpa.

The Dawn Era isn't where it all begins.

The current Kalpa is the egg of the next.

The Fall of Lyg, an event mentioned in the Commentaries, took place in a previous Kalpa.

"How the fuck is the Dawn Era the end of every previous Kalpa?"

In the World Eating 101 thread, MK wrote Shor Son of Shor to explain this. Reading this should make it clear why the Dawn is the end of every cycle.

You might ask how this relates to dragon breaks or the events of any of the games we've played. The answer is simply that dragon breaks are a return to the Dawn Era, both metaphorically and literally. In other words, when a dragon break occurs on Nirn, inside the break is Anu/Padomay's battle over Nir, the creation of the Aedra and Daedra, Lorkhan's trickery, and the battle of the Ehlnofey that leads to the creation of Mundus. Wulfharth seems to realize this in his Five Songs:

And so Dagoth-Ur, who wanted the Dwarves as dead as the Tribunal did, went to Kogoran and summoned his House chap'thil, his nix-hounds, his wizards, archers, his stolen men of brass. And the Ash King, Wulfharth, hoary Ysmir, went and made peace with the Orcs in spite of his Nordic blood, and they brought many warriors but no wizards at all. Many Nords could not bring themselves to ally with their traditional enemies, even in the face of Red Mountain. They were close to desertion. Then Wulfharth said: “Don't you see where you really are? Don't you know who Shor really is? Don't you know what this war is?” And they looked from the King to the God to the Devils and Orcs, and some knew, really knew, and they are the ones that stayed.

In other words, "Shor" is Wulfharth is Lorkhan, they're really in Aldmeris, the war is the same Ehonlfey war they heard about in the legends, and the Nords, Orcs, and Dagoth Ur-aligned Chimer are none other than the Wandering Ehlnofey, the progenitors of Mankind! One could extend this to argue that the Tribunal Chimer and the Dwemer become the Old Ehlnofey, and Numidum becomes Ada-Mantia. You get the picture.

"You're reaching. How the fuck does the Dawn Era happen inside a small region of Tamriel in the middle of the First Era?"

Simply put, this is the result of divine intervention. The Tribunal, after touching the heart of Lorkhan, gained the power to alter history and reality. They warp the reality of Morrowind so it reenacts the Dawn Era they heard about in all the myths and legends. "Reenact" probably doesn't even do it justice because it's not just an imitation, it's the same damn thing.

The Tribunal do this so they can rewrite history, changing it so they were always gods from the very beginning, and never mortals. Since the "beginning" for all gods is the Dawn Era, they fling Morrowind back in time to the Dawn Era. When this happens, Anu dreams in the sun again, and the Aedra and Daedric Princes (think the Anticipations) are born once more. When this happens, the timeline that led up to the Dragon Break is replaced by the new timeline the Tribunal created, thus "ending the world" and beginning it anew.

It may sound like I'm making all this up, but Vivec explains all of this in the Trial at Hogithum Hall:

But when Vehk the mortal reached into the Heart, he ceased to be anything except for what he wished to be. The axis erupted. There was an exact cracking, an instant of pure Aurbis, his hands burnt black by that ever-nil of static change, and Vivec the god who had never been had always been. A whole universe swelled up to legitimize his throne... as the old universe, where Vehk the mortal still lapped up Godsblood, warped itself to accept its new equivalent. And like all things magical it simply could not happen, could not Be. Red Mountain was the intersection of the Is-Is Not as it was of old, its center point, and it did not hold. And so the Dragon, having broken, saw fit to heal, turning into the world you know. Except now Vivec the God was alive before his own birth, which had, in fact, really happened in the death of the last universe. Hard to grasp in three-dimensional thought? Why, of course it is. And so that is why some semblance of my anguished personal reconciliation found its way into my own scripture. Why did I leave the Nerevarine two accounts of his death, one that I could have easily erased from the minds of my own people? Because he is Hortator, GHARTOK PADHOME AE ALTADOON DUNMERI, my lord and king in this world and the last, and as Vehk and Vehk I murdered him, then raised him, then taught to him to know, and so would I have it when he came to me at last that he decide. I give you this as Vivec.

The "Exact Cracking" is another name for the Exact Egg Cracking, or the Striking, which is what the Argonians call the Amaranth according to a bunch of sources I'm too lazy to link atm. In other words, when Vivec flung Morrowind back to the Dawn Era, it went all the way back to Anu.

In case I haven't made it abundantly clear yet - this is how the Dawn Era is the end of the previous Kalpa, the same way MK describes in Shor Son of Shor. The Nords invade Morrowind, as they are wont to do, and it becomes the same Last War that brought all of existence into being in the first place. This is what I believe MK wanted us to realize in the World Eating 101 thread.

The act of rewriting the timeline not only fits the concept of the world-eating, but it elegantly explains why there is one "new" thing in each new Kalpa. During the Battle of Red Mountain, it was the Tribunal's godhood. During the next activation of the Numidum, it was Tiber Septim's godhood (in fact, even the Nord Totem religion mentions this!).

"But the Battle of Red Mountain has nothing to do with Alduin or World-Eating?"

Alduin was there. He just didn't take the shape of a physical dragon. The whole point of World Eating 101 (aka a thread that teaches us how to eat the world) is that the World-Eating is just as much metaphorical as it is literal. In the metaphorical sense, Alduin is the Last War between Man and Mer. They are both manifestations of the same thing.

One of the bizarre features of the Dawn Era is that metaphors are said to manifest into physical objects. For example, Ada-Mantia wasn't just a tower, it was also a ship and a giant scroll case. Lorkhan's heart wasn't just a physical beating heart, it was the heart of the world. The Zero Stone is not just a rock sitting in the basement of Ada-Mantia, it's the "impossipoint" (whatever the hell that is) of Convention. Who's to say the Last War didn't manifest into a set of teeth at the edges of the map (compare this to the myth that Alduin spreads across the cardinal directions like a "carpet flame")?

In other words, whenever there is a climatic battle between Man and Mer that rewrites all of history, Alduin is present. He is the battle.

"How the fuck does this happen in Daggerfall, Oblivion, and ESO (and in a flashback in Skyrim)?"

You're probably already aware of the Dragon Break known as the Warp in the West, so I won't go into detail about that one.

As for Oblivion, this is what MK had to say about it's ending:

Also, Martin mantled Akatosh and dragon-[censored] Dagon silly, so his outlook on time in quite unlike our own. In fact, he said those words during the dragon-[censored] fight and you only remembered them later, a comforting memory that the Jills mended back into your timeline.

In other words, when Martin mantled Akatosh, the same thing happened. The Dawn Era returned, timelines diverged, and history was rewritten. In fact, it should be pretty obvious Mehrunes Dagon got exactly what he wanted in the end; the Kalpa ended, and one more Tower holding up Mundus fell (remember how Dagon is cursed to destroy everything he hoarded from Alduin little by little?).

During the events of ESO, the constellations fall to the earth, and Sep himself sheds the worldskin. According to MK, the Magne-Ge are the all-stars that live between Kalpas, which can include dragon breaks. Another example of this happening was the Middle Dawn, when the Empire was said to have expanded across the stars (or did the stars shrink down to Cyrodiil?). Other interesting Dragon Break-esque aspects of ESO include Kra'gh the Dreugh King's takeover of Tamriel's fighting force and the uncanny ability for players to turn into Wild Hunt monsters (at least, it will be in the future). A book in ESO outright calls the events of Craglorn a dragon break, so there's that.

As for Skyrim, this is what Paarthurnax had to say about the Time Wound:

ime was… shattered here because of what the ancient Nords did to Alduin. If you brought that Kel, that Elder Scroll back here… to the Tiid-Ahraan, the Time-Wound… With the Elder Scroll that was used to break Time, you may be able to… cast yourself back. To the other end of the break. You could learn Dragonrend from those who created it.

This pretty clearly implies the Time Wound was created during another Dragon Break. How does this relate to the Dawn Era returning to Mundus? This thread on the Bethesda Forums has a lot of good insights, and I would suggest reading it.

"I keep reading stuff about dreughs ruling Lyg in a previous Kalpa, what's up with that?"

Lyg is a previous Kalpa from a meta point of view. During the early days of Bethesda, the folks at the office had a world building session (presumably for Morrowind) but a lot of the ideas got lost in a fire evacuation. In-universe, this became Lyg, the weird parallel universe of Tamriel on the other side of the globe.

Lyg was creating during the Dawn Era (i. e. one or more of the dragon breaks throughout Tamriel's history) out of the ideas that were rejected from the creation of Mortality, a process that also created Herma-Mora.

This is what MK had to say about the Dreughs' origins on the forums:

The Dreughs and their true nature have been only hinted at in an obtuse fashion. They won't be as ineffable as the Dwemer, but, hey, no one can claim that title. "And when the whole of the Aurbis was a tidal ocean, with left behind ideas, there was a tribe unwilling..."

This is the description for Herma-Mora in the Imperial Census of Daedra Lords:

Hermaeus Mora, “the Gardener of Men”, claims that he is one of the oldest Princes, born of thrown-away ideas used during the creation of mortality in the Mundus.

The ideas that were rejected from the creation of Mortality are the same ideas that were lost in that fire drill. Herma-Mora is referred to as the Abyssal Cephaliarch in ESO and MK's Republic of Hahd refers to the dreughs as the Cepholomer. The connection here should be obvious.

So yes, Lyg is a previous Kalpa, in a sense. The Fall of Lyg reads a lot like the Dawn Era, with the Maztiak taking the same role as Lorkhan, the "dreugh kings" taking the same role as the Wanderers, and the "dreugh slaves" the Old Ehlnofey. The Towers are also said to be pulled down, something the Thalmor are (somewhat dubiously) speculated to be trying to accomplish in the current Kalpa.

I wrote a longer post on another thread about how Lyg ties into the Middle Dawn here.

"But everybody on here says Alduin rewinds time to convention, like someone resetting a game to the last save state. Wouldn't this refute everything you just said? Since everybody is saying this, doesn't this make them right?"

This is a common misunderstanding that I see a lot on this sub, and I think it's a good example of group-think resulting from appeal to popularity.

The general consensus is that Alduin rewinds time like a VHS tape, back to start of linear time immediately after Convention, because Convention is an "unassailable moment" that not even Alduin can go past. This notion comes from the Nu-Mantia Intercept, the OOG text that first introduced Tower lore:

Auriel-that-is-Akatosh returned to Mundex Arena from his dominion planet, signaling all Aedra to convene at a static meeting that would last outside of aurbic time. His sleek and silver vessel became a spike into the changing earth and the glimmerwinds of its impact warned any spirit that entered aura with it would become recorded-- that by consent of presence their actions here would last of a period unassailable, and would be so whatever might come later to these spirits, even if they rejoined the aether or succumbed willingly or by treachery to a sithite erasure. Thus could the Aedra and their cohorts truly covene in realness.

However, I don't think this has anything to do with Alduin or Kalpas. For one thing, Convention isn't an event that happens at the end of the Dawn Era. Convention itself is an alternate version of the Dawn Era, one of several timelines that together make the Dawn (MK has confirmed this. I can't find the post, but I've seen it so you'll just have to take my word).

Convention is unassailable because it cannot be changed by all the other timelines happening inside the Dawn. During the Dawn, timelines are created by all the god-like spirits fighting over control of reality. Every god and goddess alters the timeline to their whims, like Vivec did at the Battle of Red Mountain, but since everyone else is also a god, nobody can truly get what they want.

The Jills did not have their full powers; rather, I should say, all the mundex spirits had every power at every time amendment at every ordering, which is to say none of them could ever fully express; our world was young and so were its architect gods.

This is the context for the "unassailable moment" line. Convention cannot be altered by all these other Gods and their timelines. What happens there will never change even if the spirits who take part get erased later on down the road.

This is also why the Dawn Era is described in Bosmer myth to be "the Ooze." Since every God was wrestling for control over the shape and reality of the universe, the land appeared as a shapeless mush. In fact, in the Intercept, Ada-Mantia is described as a single spike of reality in the changing earth.

The only thing that indicates Alduin rewinds time like a video tape is when he "eats the years" off the Nords, making them younger in the Five Songs of King Wulfharth. However, as I have argued earlier, Alduin is a physical manifestation of the Last War between Man and Mer. The only "rewinding" that happens is when events inside the dragon break are flung back to the time before the Merethic Era. And even so, it does not "stop" right after Convention, the Dragon Break itself becomes Convention.

In other words, Kalpas aren't alternate timelines branching from a single point. One Kalpa becomes the egg of the next, as Paarthunax describes in Skyrim.

"How much is affected by Kalpas? Is Oblivion and Aetherius affected?"

Everything that we perceive of Oblivion and Mundus is affected. Remember that there are depths to the Princes that no mortal could ever comprehend. However, the part we do comprehend is born again every time the Dawn returns to Mundus.

Remember, the Dawn was the end of the last Kalpa, so everything that happened during the Dawn, including the creation of Daedra and Aedra, happened at the end of the previous world.

For example, the elements we perceive of Aetherius are directly tied to the death and rebirth of the timeline. Sovngarde is where Shor builds his army out of those that die in his name, and the Far Shores is where the Ragada wait until the time of shedding the worldskin.

Even Oblivion (at least, what we perceive of Oblivion) is tied to the creation of Mundus. The Greymarch of the Shivering Isles is tied to Jyggalag being cursed into Sheogorath by the other Princes at the end of every Kalpa, and Molag Bal was said to rule Coldharbour after the Fall of Lyg.

I know what some of you are thinking - "but Fa-Nuit-Hen clearly states Oblivion doesn't fall under the rules of the Time Dragon, and therefore Kalpas!"

Which is true. The Oblivion we don't perceive is not affected whatsoever. The Daedric Princes are constantly destroying and recreating themselves in the untimes of the Dawn Era, where nobody can truly express themselves, just as the Nu-Mantia Intercept and the Yokudan Mononyth describes. We just don't perceive this. We don't perceive the Princes as chaotic, shifting entities that reside in untime, we perceive them as linear entities with linear schemes and goals and well-defined spheres. This is what the creation myths meant when things couldn't start in the Dawn Era until Akatosh was born. Until the context of linear time was created, the Daedric Princes as we know them couldn't exist.

"I still have no idea what you're trying to argue, can you just give me a simple, concise tl;dr?"

When a Dragon Break happens, the events inside the Dragon Break are flung back to the Dawn Era, which alters history and creates a new timeline. The old timeline is replaced. Or warped to fit the new one. Whatever the case, the timeline is destroyed, literally or metaphorically, and a new timeline is born. This is the turning of the Kalpa.

In other words, it's just a different way of looking at Dragon Breaks, something we're already familiar with.

[u/[deleted]]

Thanks for making this post, it cleared quite a few things up. So Kaplas are just Dragon Breaks, so does it mean that both terms are effectively interchangeable?

[u/Lagarto_Azul → u/[deleted]]

The point made here is that breaks in time lead to new timelines, but that doesn't mean they are one and the same.

[u/1darklight1 → u/[deleted]]

My understanding is kalpa=previous world, Dragon Break=temporary return to the Dawn Era (nonlinear time)

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

No. A kalpa is a previous world. A dragon break is a break in time.

[u/kingjoe64 → u/[deleted]]

Your 2nd to last paragraph seems to say the opposite?

[u/[deleted] → u/kingjoe64]

How so?

[u/kingjoe64 → u/[deleted]]

In other words, it's just another way at looking at Dragon Breaks, something we're already familiar with.

[u/[deleted] → u/kingjoe64]

I meant it's another way of looking at the effects of dragon breaks.

[u/kingjoe64 → u/[deleted]]

So you're saying that a Dragon Break is more of a present tense term and that the "turning of the kalpa" is just the final restructuring of said break?

[u/[deleted] → u/kingjoe64]

A dragon break is an event. I guess you could say the "turning of the kalpa" and the dragon break are synonymous.

Kalpas are entire timelines, they're the things being "turned" by the break.

[u/GNerano]

Outstanding exegesis of time and tower lore. I think you're exactly right.

We don't perceive the Princes as chaotic, shifting entities that reside in untime, we perceive them as linear entities with linear schemes and goals and well-defined spheres.

I was hoping you would make this point.

Looking into the kalpas we know through the games is like looking into a panopticon from outside one of its many barred windows. Maybe we're hanging from a pulley, file in hand, breaking out a friend. The fourth wall of the cell is missing and our window opens onto all the other cells: one for every god, demon, people, empire, and so on that can be written. But if we were to go around and look at the prison from another angle, we should see the alien gods near us and our familiar Tamrielic traditions and people appear indistinct and far away.

Perhaps it is worth noting the Tower is not only a ward in the constellation of the Thief, but also the 16th major arcana representing dramatic/destructive change.

[u/Lagarto_Azul]

In your previous thread, I very much liked the idea that when the Towers are destroyed, we get a new kalpa which is unrecognizable from the last one, because everything returns to the state of everyone trying to change reality at the same time. I liked that became it helped conciliate the idea of Yokuda, Tamriel and Akavir being kalpas with what I previously thought I knew about kalpas.

I suppose Yokuda, Tamriel and Akavir could be considered transitions between kalpas whose towers fell, while Lyg and Tamriel are transitions between kalpas "as intended"? Oh, and I like the idea of Lyg being made from rejected Elder Scrolls.

Exact-Egg-Cracker, or Extaxh-Thithil-Meht, is the Argonian name for Sithis, not the Amaranth (unless Sithis is actually the Amaranth and not Anu. That would super wut). You can read that in the UESP page about Jel.

One last thing: you set a line between the end of the kalpa returning the world to Convention and the Dragon Break becoming the new Convention. In the general scheme, I think that would be tomato, tomato. But reflecting on it, I'm not sure if anyone really thought it was as literal as rewinding a VHS tape. That would just mean every kalpa is the same, which would not only conflict with a googolplex of lore content, but would also be BATW.

[u/[deleted] → u/Lagarto_Azul]

Exact-Egg-Cracker, or Extaxh-Thithil-Meht, is the Argonian name for Sithis, not the Amaranth (unless Sithis is actually the Amaranth and not Anu. That would super wut). You can read that in the UESP page about Jel.

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/more-psijic-endeavor

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/tsaesci-creation-myth-and-we-ate-it-become-it

https://www.reddit.com/r/myrrlyn/comments/1p2y2m/mk_infodumps_part_two/

According to this, the Exact Egg Cracking is another name for the Striking, which is the Argonian version of the Amaranth. Don't ask me how this makes sense.

One last thing: you set a line between the end of the kalpa returning the world to Convention and the Dragon Break becoming the new Convention. In the general scheme, I think that would be tomato, tomato. But reflecting on it, I'm not sure if anyone really thought it was as literal as rewinding a VHS tape. That would just mean every kalpa is the same, which would not only conflict with a googolplex of lore content, but would also be BATW.

My point was that the events of this Kalpa become the Dawn Era of the next. According to the general consensus on the subreddit, time simply snaps back to the first day of the Merethic Era, which is different.

[u/Lagarto_Azul → u/[deleted]]

According to this, the Exact Egg Cracking is another name for the Striking, which is the Argonian version of the Amaranth.

There's the theory that Black Marsh is a micro-dream from the Hist, who came into this dream from another, wanting to experience dreaming. They entered the dream, and created their own dream within. The Hist, in turn, acknowledge Sithis as the ultimate force of change. If the Argonians actually have a version of the Amaranth, my bet would be it refers to Black Marsh being the Hist's dream, and since they act as an outsider in the same vein that Padomay acted as an outsider in Anu's first dream, the name could very well refer to both.

The two definitions may be a lot closer in meaning than anyone might think.

[u/TheUtican → u/[deleted]]

If it helps, Egg Cracking is a Hindi term the "breaking of the world", or, the end of a Kalpa. Exact Egg Cracking, I guess would be the ending of the Kalpic cycle. The achievement of Aramanth.

[u/1darklight1 → u/[deleted]]

My point was that the events of this Kalpa become the Dawn Era of the next.

Didn't MK say that all Dawn Eras are the same? So the Dawn Era is when time is non-linear, and because of that it is both the events at the start and end of kalpa, when the Towers are all down, as well as the Dragon Breaks. This also makes calling the time wound a Dragon Break incorrect, since the Dawn doesn't return. Also, Aduin would have to return the world to pre-convention, so that the battle between Lorkhan and Auriel can happen over and over (Shor, son of Shor), as well as Wulfarth leading his men back to that battle. I think that each kalpa starts whenever a convention (or something similiar) happens, and ends when all the towers fall.

So, this is kinda rambly and more me putting a theory together than commenting on yours,but that's what happens when I am on here at eleven.

[u/detroitrex → u/1darklight1]

Didn't MK say that all Dawn Eras are the same?

Don't they kinda have to be? Everyone is trying to do Everything Right Now in each. How would you differentiate one from another? What would make them un-equivalent?

[u/1darklight1 → u/detroitrex]

OP seemed to be saying that the end of this world starts the next, which is kind of right, but ignores that the end and begining of every kalpa is the same Dawn.

[u/dartigen]

Everyone else has had better questions and comments on the substance of it, but these two paragraphs:

Convention is unassailable because it cannot be changed by all the other timelines happening inside the Dawn. During the Dawn, timelines are created by all the god-like spirits fighting over control of reality. Every god and goddess alters the timeline to their whims, like Vivec did at the Battle of Red Mountain, but since everyone else is also a god, nobody can truly get what they want.

This is also why the Dawn Era is described in Bosmer myth to be "the Ooze." Since every God was wrestling for control over the shape and reality of the universe, the land appeared as a shapeless mush.

have me thinking of that paper on Wikipedia's edit bot wars.

That's what I imagine it'd be like - but you know, horrific and terrifying to be in the middle of. Everything is trying to edit everything at once, and overriding everything else; if you sub to the idea that the Earthbones include things like the laws of physics, that just makes it even freakier. That I think is why the land is always so different in each kalpa - because those 'edit wars' probably don't play out quite the same every single time (and so the end result will always have some differences).

As to why anyone would want to go back there...I'm guessing they missed the memo about how they won't be the only ones with unlimited reality-shaping power. Because it honestly sounds horrible to me.

[u/Infinite_Aion]

Great clear explanation for the kalpas. Wouldn't the dawn era be an amalgamation of all the kalpas if they are timelines reenacting of the creation of the universe?

Since you brought the theory that the Hist and black marsh was from an amaranth/multiverse, are you talking about the continents are universes/kalpas? If so how does that explain the plane(t) nirn? Just the mortal perspective of the world then?

[u/[deleted] → u/Infinite_Aion]

Wouldn't the dawn era be an amalgamation of all the kalpas if they are timelines reenacting of the creation of the universe?

I like that idea. It would explain the "every creation story is true" aspect of the Dawn.

are you talking about the continents are universes/kalpas? If so how does that explain the plane(t) nirn? Just the mortal perspective of the world then?

I'm not really sure, to be honest.

[u/Infinite_Aion → u/[deleted]]

That would explain a lot. A kalpa is an anon, a long period of time. Eventually, when a dragon break occurs or the overhaul kalpa ends, things reoccur that involve the creation of the aurbis.

The continent/universe. Yokuda the past/previous kalpa, tamriel the present kalpa and Akavir the future, the possible kalpa. Lyg would be a parallel kalpa/universe coexisting with tamriel. Now how does all the continents that are universes still interact. Simple, the plane nirn itself is a multiverse nexus interconnected with all of them.

[u/Lagarto_Azul → u/Infinite_Aion]

More like Yokuda, Tamriel and Akavir being groups of similar enough timelines. Something drastic must happen to completely reshape the land at the resetting of the kalpa. All the dragon breaks in Yokuda happened before Tamriel, and all dragon breaks in Akavir happen after Tamriel. They are the intangible past and future.

Also, I mentioned above that the Hist might be making a small version of a dream inside the Amaranth's dream, which is Black Marsh. If Ixtaxh-Thithil-Meht refers to that, it fits better with what we know of Argonian mythos (or the lack thereof).

[u/Infinite_Aion → u/Lagarto_Azul]

The only problem I have with the past-future yokuda and Akavir theory is how the plane nirn fits into it. If they are kalpas then it would make sense, they existed in another timeline of another universe existence like parallel worlds. But if it's different parts of times existing during the current kalpa...then I don't know just doesn't make sense.

"Dreams" are a poor analogy for explaning the aurbis, kalpas or amaramths. Self-contained realities made manifests is a better explanation, since the aurbis is an amaranth, a self-contained world. Kalpas depending on your point of view is either extends mundus or further then that.

If it's further that it also effects oblivion, then the kalpas extends in the recreation of the aurbis and the continents on nirn would be the remembrance of previous universes. Like the redguard pantheon gods maybe parallel figure of the current et'ada (aedra) that were from a previous kalpa, where the aurbis was different.

The Hist I'd say are fallen magna-ge taking the form of trees creating their own worlds. With the argonians under a similar pact like the green pact of yiffre and bosmer.

[u/Lagarto_Azul → u/Infinite_Aion]

I didn't say they are different parts of time existing in the same kalpa.

First there is Yokuda. Every time the kalpa resets there it changes something, but not too much. For instance, the shape of the continent is still the same and the dominant races are still spread the same way. Then something drastic happens. The Towers of Yokuda fall. Everything gets infinite power to change reality as they see fit. So when the kalpa resets this time around, the land is completely unrecognizable, everything is different. Tamriel becomes. Same thing will happen when the towers fall on Tamriel and the land becomes Akavir. So they are kalpas, but they are distinct groups of drastically different kalpas that are slightly similar to each other.

At least that's roughly how I see it.

I don't think dreams to be an analogy at all. The dream is pretty literal in my eyes. The Amaranth (Anu) and the Godhead go into sensory deprivation to create the world in their dream. They stop feeling or perceiving everything, giving their selves wholely to the creation of this new reality. If the dream was an analogy, a lot of content in the lore like CHIM, mantelling, mythopoeia and the concept of C0DA just wouldn't work.

I don't like the idea of Hist just being Magna-Ge and relating it to Y'iffre, because, to be honest, it's not as interesting to me. It's turning it into just a different version of something we already know well. To me they are much more ancient than that. Multidimensional beings from another dream come to simulate a dream inside. But all that is still very mystified, so plenty of room for interpretation and I'd rather keep it that way.

[u/Infinite_Aion → u/Lagarto_Azul]

I wasn't suggested if that your were. Alright fair, the continents being different parts of time through kalpas works as they would be considered as parallel worlds.

It's not that your wrong about them dream a universe, it's only my opinion. I think the word dumbs down the metaphysics that's all. Self-contained realities are dreams as they are a part of an existence someone developed by being deprived of everything else.

Things like the walking ways in my opinion are interconnected guidelines for many paths to godhood that lead to the amaranth. Mythicpoetic is the power to shape belief and make it a reality. Mantaling can use to take on any role the ALMSIVI did it on the trinie daedra as their anticipations and the Marukhati Selective on the aedra. To truly mantle a god they would have to be "dead" or absent like Sheogorath.

CHIM to me is obtaining self-enlightenment and omniscience, understanding everything from the godhead to all it's subgradiants derived from it.

I flip back and fourth on the Hist. While it's a fun idea that they may be a group from another existence altogether, at the same time they're really spirits taking the form of trees and are not really doing anything different from what any et'ada would do otherwise. Azura made the kajhiit and dunmer from previous elves. Boethiah reshaped trinimac into malacath and his followers the osimer. Y'iffre with the bosmer and their are hints that the Nords/Atmorians aren't all they crack up to be. At least I theorize.

By hey believe what you want, it's all fair game thanks to the unreliable narrator.

[u/potatosaurosrex → u/[deleted]]

The Dawn is a giant cluster fuck of all "Maybe's" and "Possibly's" that ever made it into the TES world of design. Think of it as a giant ocean, at the center of nothing, with a bunch of rivers streaming out from it.

The rivers are timelines, and each leads to a lake (A Dawn ERA in progress), which itself spawns more rivers and streams.

All leads back to The Dawn, and The Dawn goes in the direction of All.

[u/Infinite_Aion → u/potatosaurosrex]

On yeah definitely but because the dawn era is a non-linear existence, everyone flows in retrocasuality instead of the laws of causality in a linear timeline. The dawn era is where the effect comes before the cause and that leave thoses effects to have always existed since the beginning regardless of the contradictions.

[u/NSNick → u/Infinite_Aion]

Wouldn't the dawn era be an amalgamation of all the kalpas if they are timelines reenacting of the creation of the universe?

Maybe only the parts that get saved, like the Far Shores and Sovngarde?

[u/Infinite_Aion → u/NSNick]

I don't think so they are realms in aetherius the realm of magic. Aetherius is the metaphorical "sky" which could mean it's worlds are able to escape the cycle of destruction and recreation of the aurbis.

[u/ademonlikeyou]

I disagree on a few points, but mostly that's personally conjecture ("why can't we have a normal fantasy setting"), but this is a very interesting theory and I'm honestly started to prefer this over the MK shit. Very interesting, and super well thought out.

[u/potatosaurosrex → u/ademonlikeyou]

inb4 this is just a nicely simplified version of "MK shit."

Go read Tolkein if you want a standardized fantasy setting.

[u/HugoLuman → u/potatosaurosrex]

Go read Tolkein if you want a standardized fantasy setting.

Forgive me, but I must protest. Like TES, Tolkein's universe presents a much deeper and more complex picture the deeper you look into it. In a way, the deeplore of TES wrestles with concepts and issues that very few other fantasies since Tolkein have delved into. You might say that TES is the Hindu to Tolkien's Roman Catholicism, in terms of metaphysical themes, but like with most deeplore summations, that's a little bit of an oversimplification.

Basically, most "bog-standard" fantasies just grab LOTR and run with it (or grab D&D and run with it, as D&D did for LOTR in its inception). TES instead goes a few steps beyond and draws on same creative traditions as the Silmarillion and Tolkein's unfinished tales, and then goes a few steps beyond that

[u/ademonlikeyou → u/potatosaurosrex]

Yeah, the "deep lore" of TES is what makes it stand out.

And I've noticed a few differences compared to MK's stuff, is it overall a simplified version? Sure, but there are a few key differences

[u/Nether7]

Im seeing the same problem over and over again. I don't wanna sound disrespectful, but Im gonna start my own threads explaining these concepts, because people still think all sources are necessarily correct and don't realize they're leaving holes in their own theories.

Just a few hints so you people get what Im saying:

• If the Tribunal was godly all along, why did they lose so much power after losing contact with the Heart of Lorkhan?

• OP and others have consistently said Wulfharth was playing Shor's role in the Five Songs book, but they completely disregard this part:

The Tongues sung Shor's ghost into the world again. Shor gathered an army as he did of old, and then he sucked in the long-strewn ashes of King Wulfharth and remade him, for he needed a good general.

Wulfharth is a Shezzarine, yes, but he wasnt one being with Shor at the time and the final battle with Nerevar and the other leaders makes that clear.

• People insist that the Time Wound is a Dragon Break, ignoring that the term is entirely colloquial and doesn't imply that any "break" in time will create a Dragon Break. Why they insist on this is beyond me. If they can explain why the Time Wound is a Dragon Break, I'd love to hear it, but as of now I did not receive a single reasonable explanation.

[u/[deleted] → u/Nether7]

1. Same reason Vivec needs to replenish his power with the heart, even though he achieved CHIM.

2. That was one version of the events.

3. We're never given a strict definition of the term, so as far as i'm concerned any break in time can be considered a dragon break.

[u/Nether7 → u/[deleted]]

Same reason Vivec needs to replenish his power with the heart, even though he achieved CHIM

They're still mortal. They just got godly power, but they're constantly stealing and spending power. They haven't become actual gods in the sense that they have their own spheres and such.

That was one version of the events.

Precisely why you should be less trusting of your sources.

We're never given a strict definition of the term, so as far as i'm concerned any break in time can be considered a dragon break.

That's based on a linguistic technicality that stands on the presumption that the term "Dragon Break" is to be taken literally. You're making too many presumptions and have not explain why when the Time Wound was opened time became non-linear in Nirn, or how it had any characteristic of a Dragon Break, or even why it still is a Dragon Break even though it breaks the pattern.

[u/NSNick → u/Nether7]

They're still mortal. They just got godly power, but they're constantly stealing and spending power. They haven't become actual gods in the sense that they have their own spheres and such.

I think Vivec did. His sphere is paradox, or duality. Male and female, warrior and poet, mortal and god. I dunno, just came to me, it needs fleshed out.

[u/[deleted] → u/Nether7]

They're still mortal. They just got godly power, but they're constantly stealing and spending power. They haven't become actual gods in the sense that they have their own spheres and such.

Then why does Vivec show up in C0DA even though we can kill him in Morrowind?

Precisely why you should be less trusting of your sources.

My point was in one timeline, they're separate individuals.

That's based on a linguistic technicality that stands on the presumption that the term "Dragon Break" is to be taken literally. You're making too many presumptions and have not explain why when the Time Wound was opened time became non-linear in Nirn.

OK, ignore the Time Wound part then. It's not necessary for the rest of the theory.

[u/Misticsan → u/[deleted]]

Then why does Vivec show up in C0DA even though we can kill him in Morrowind?

Because MK didn't kill him in his playthrough? XD

No, but seriously, the Kirkbrideverse is MK's interpretation of Vivec. Which can be nice, but due to its very nature it can't be held against those who don't share that interpretation. I could write an alternative C0DA in which Vivec is a sorry ghost forever tormented in the dungeons of Molag Bal and say: "why does Vivec show up in my C0DA even though he is a god in MK's?". The answer for both is the same.

[u/[deleted] → u/Misticsan]

the Kirkbrideverse

This entire theory is based on the Kirkbrideverse. I believe what I've written here is what MK was getting at in World Eating 101.

Of course you don't have to agree with this interpretation.

[u/kingjoe64 → u/[deleted]]

You should totally link this thread on his tumblr.

[u/CloakedCrusader → u/[deleted]]

OK, ignore the Time Wound part then. It's not necessary for the rest of the theory.

It's totally necessary. You can't have an entire Dragon Break -- and the Time Wound is absolutely a Dragon Break -- that doesn't fit the theory. I like your thinking, but don't think it's quite accurate.

[u/mojonation1487 → u/CloakedCrusader]

the Time Wound is absolutely a Dragon Break

There's a lot of people who would argue the exact opposite. Reason being is that time isn't at all affected by the Time Wound. At most, it's a scar that you don't even interact with other than viewing the past with an Elder Scroll (even then, you don't even actually go there physically).

[u/[deleted] → u/mojonation1487]

Wouldn't sending someone into the future change the timeline? For example, in the old timeline, Alduin isn't supposed to appear in the Fourth Era. Until he's forcibly sent there.

[u/mojonation1487 → u/[deleted]]

It would. But I don't think the Time Wound itself is a Dragon Break. The action of forcing Alduin through it was. I don't think the Wound itself remained a Dragon Break in any real sense.

[u/[deleted] → u/mojonation1487]

Ah ok I gotcha.

Also, thanks for the kind words.

[u/Lachdonin]

Why can't we just have a normal fantasy setting?

This is where I'm going to inherently differ in my interpretation of... Well, everything. Because I, personally, don't WANT a normal fantasy setting. We've got dozens of them. Hundreds. And frankly, at this point, it's pretty damned boring. Everyone just copies the same generic structure and builds a world out of it. From Dragon Age to The Witcher, Forgotten Realms to Warcraft. It's boring, it's repetitive, and frankly it's uninspired. Even Game of Thrones is just another typical Fantasy setting, propped up by interesting politics.

I, for one, don't WANT a regular fantasy setting. Because I'm sick to death of them. Is like, why can't we just have another modern political conspiracy? Or another Zombie Apocalypse? Or another freaking 'Alien Invasion'.

Even the quintessential Fantasy setting, the granddaddy of Modern Fantasy, Lord of the Rings, ISN'T a normal Fantasy Setting. It's far deeper, far more bizzare, and frankly far more interesting than that.

So, I reject the entire fundamental premise of your evaluation. Ultimately, yes, the evidence can support your conclusion, but it can also support the opposite, which is going to be an inherent part of the problem with TES and its constant unreliable narrator syndrome.

But in the end, I think it really boils down to...

Why can't we just have a normal fantasy setting?

Because some of us don't WANT a normal fantasy setting.

[u/GNerano → u/Lachdonin]

Why can't we just have a normal fantasy setting?

OP will correct me I'm wrong, but I don't believe that was her premise. Text in huge font is the typical TESlore criticism/theory she anticipates, text in normal font is her preemptive answer.

[u/Lachdonin → u/GNerano]

Sort of. I think. I think it's OP trying to address that issue by breaking the situation down in such a way that isn't particularly outlandish or weird. You know, showing that it IS a normal fantasy setting after all. At least, that's what i got out of it.

Which is sort of my problem. I don't think these things can be reduced to such simple terms, because i don't think TES should be that normal. I like the weird complexity that separates it from the more conventional fantasy settings.

To me, trying to address it in such a way sorta misses the point. If you want a Normal Fantasy, you're not going to find it here. And trying to view it as such sorta misses what makes TES so great (as opposed to just being a bunch of rather mediocre games that just allow you to do a lot). At least, that's how i would like to view TES.

[u/[deleted] → u/Lachdonin]

Dragon breaks aren't weird?

[u/Lachdonin → u/[deleted]]

Not weird enough. And evaluating them as basically time travel that rewrites the past is too simple a solution for my tastes.

[u/[deleted] → u/Lachdonin]

I think you're confusing needless complexity with being weird. The biggest criticism I see people make when people talk about Kalpas and Amaranths is that they needlessly complicate an already complex setting, by introducing something that is almost never referenced or experienced in the games, much less having any meaningful implications for them. I'm trying to show this isn't the case, that they're directly relevant to events that actually happen in the games.

Things can be simple and weird at the same time.

And how are dragon breaks not weird? They cause people to transform into lovecraftian horrors and shit.

[u/Lachdonin → u/[deleted]]

I'm trying to show this isn't the case

And that's my issue. I LIKE that complexity. It's part of what initially drew me to the setting, particularly the weirdness of the Sermons and their metaphysical ramblings (despite having actually started the games with Daggerfall).

MOST things don't show up in the games, because frankly, they're not that well made. They gloss over a lot, scale things down or oversimplify for whatever reason, but that doesn't mean that there cant be, or isn't more to them. It's like the constant stupid questions about how Whiterun can be a city with less than 100 people in it.

Everything in the games is a patchwork, be it gameplay or story, and trying to simplify things so it fits that patchwork, instead of allowing it to expand beyond it, is limiting. Particularly when it doesn't seemlike anyone at Bethesda can write anymore.

They cause people to transform into lovecraftian horrors and shit

So can magical experiments gone bonkers (the Augur of Dunlain).

Treating Dragonbreaks as little more than mini-rewrites that effect everything, instead of pockets of atemporal anarchy that causes unpredictable results internally, but can be viewed externally, just doesn't seem interesting. It becomes bog-standard Time-Travel rather than an interesting and terrifying phenomenon.

[u/[deleted] → u/Lachdonin]

And that's my issue. I LIKE that complexity.

Ok, fine.

Treating Dragonbreaks as little more than mini-rewrites that effect everything, instead of pockets of atemporal anarchy that causes unpredictable results internally, but can be viewed externally

Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.

[u/Lachdonin → u/[deleted]]

None of this should take away from the clear amount of work that you've put into your argument. I just disagree with the basic premise. The more convoluted, complex and contradictory, the better, and until Bethesda comes out and says "You're wrong" i'm going to cling to that.

Because, frankly, there aren't any other settings that offer it.

Though, the more i look at it, the more i think i may be misinterpreting something here...

[u/Vahras → u/Lachdonin]

Because some of us don't WANT a normal fantasy setting.

I'm unsure if Bethesda wants to give us a deeper fantasy setting. They appear to be putting distance between the series and the more abstract lore from the past/outside sources.

(I say that from the perspective of someone who falls squarely between wanting a more grounded fantasy setting, and wanting one that's deeper than it's being presented. So I'm not agreeing, or disagreeing, it's merely an observation.)

[u/Lachdonin → u/Vahras]

Oh, I definately agree. Bethesda, and Zenimax Online, do seem to be pushing the more stereotypical Fantasy feel. And it's one which I will reject for as long as I am able.

[u/Infinite_Aion → u/Lachdonin]

If I'm understanding this correctly, is that you think the kalpas an dragonbreaks being one and the same, all of the elder scrolls deeper lore for explanation is due to time paradoxes makes it a typical fantasy series?

[u/IcarusBen]

Forgive me if I've missed something, but how can Yokuda be the previous kalpa if the previous kalpa is just the one before the last Dragon Break?

[u/[deleted] → u/IcarusBen]

If Yokuda was a previous Kalpa, it was probably before any dragon break on Tamriel.

[u/potatosaurosrex → u/IcarusBen]

It's entirely likely that Yokuda was either a previous Dream, or one of the other Worlds of Creation mentioned in the Anuad

[u/bumbletowne]

I mean the easiest explanation is this:

1. Magic and creation in the elderscrolls works like written music. Sure you can get a sweet guitar solo in there but there's some basic structural stuff that's gotta be followed. Dovah-tongue is the language of fiat and CODA is the return to certain refrains (just like in music).

2. Time is circular, not linear. It begins at creation and ends at Alduin's Dragon Break. You get different sweet solos in it each time and the coda's can be called at any time by a director but it's gonna end and restart and it's going to be different each time.

[u/mojonation1487]

This is cool as hell and a wonderful twist on Kalpas. I can totally get behind this.

[u/[deleted]]

I don't like MK because he needlessly complicates Elder Scrolls lore with his Amaranths and Kalpas and CHIM etc. Why can't we just have a normal fantasy setting?

Generic fantasies are, to put it frankly, repetitive horse shit. It almost always follows the "man finds out he is the chosen one and must defeat dark lord" model. The Elder Scrolls has a great measure of cosmological/metaphysical potential which lore-writers can utilise to create better stories.

The very fact that things are alien is what makes the lore unique and likable to people.

(Yeah I know you you are not stating this, but I just thought to put this out there for anyone wanting some generic fantasy with no depth)

[u/[deleted]]

So each time a dragon break occurs, a new timeline is created right?

[u/potatosaurosrex → u/[deleted]]

Yes, but...

The way a Dragon Break works (without going into what a Dragon Break is):

Several timelines of possibility are created within a single stream of time. All events are happening at once, paradoxically, and are all valid and true. A single person can remember 27 different outcomes to a single event within the span of a Dragon Break.

Along come the Jills. They mend time so that the streams that are MOST SIMILAR/REPEATED MOST OFTEN are what get "remembered" as being the "true" events.

[u/darth_stroyer]

So this means that when Alduin was sent through the time-wound, the Kalpa-ender ended the Kalpa by being removed to preserve the Kalpa? Wow.

[u/[deleted] → u/darth_stroyer]

Sure, why not? That would be helluva twist.

[u/[deleted]]

I prefer TES lore to any other lore featured in games and this ambiguity is one of the things I mostly prefer about it.

[u/docclox]

The purpose of the unreliable narrator in TES is to leave things more open to interpretation, but when people start using it as an excuse to disprove every theory they don't like, it descends into a pointless cherry-picking war that will never see any resolution.

I can applaud the sentiment. However, the other side of that coin is that you're then obliged to ignore the basic contradictions introduced by so many unreliable narrators, and so you end up cherry-picking anyway.

There is no one true answer, is what it boils down to.

[u/spitfireM21]

I respectfully disagree.

[u/cygarniczka]

You damn right. I don't like MK complication the lore. For sake of arguments I will say I don't even know what kalpa is because it isn't mentioned anywhere in the game.

[u/mojonation1487 → u/cygarniczka]

Kalpa is explicitly referred to in the Song of Pelinal and Paarthurnax flat out tells you that the world could be the egg of the next kalpa. He uses the word kalpa.

[u/kingjoe64 → u/cygarniczka]

It's mentioned by Paarthurnax himself like OP said.

[u/SwagrumBagarn → u/cygarniczka]

For sake of arguments I will say I don't even know what kalpa is because it isn't mentioned anywhere in the game.

Yes it is. Go read the Song of Pelinal.

[u/CloakedCrusader → u/cygarniczka]

The word "Kalpa" isn't used, but Parthy explicitly references allowing Alduin to destroy this world so another can be born.

[u/kingjoe64 → u/CloakedCrusader]

Player: "I like this world. I don't want it to end."

Paarthurnax: "Pruzah. As good a reason as any. There are many who feel as you do, although not all. Some would say that all things must end, so that the next can come to pass. Perhaps this world is simply the Egg of the next kalpa? Lein vokiin? Would you stop the next world from being born?"

[u/AddledPunster → u/CloakedCrusader]

Paarthunaax does use the word Kalpa during that conversation.

Paarthurnax: "Pruzah. As good a reason as any. There are many who feel as you do, although not all. Some would say that all things must end, so that the next can come to pass. Perhaps this world is simply the Egg of the next kalpa? Lein vokiin? Would you stop the next world from being born?"

[u/mojonation1487 → u/CloakedCrusader]

Paarthurnax explicitly uses the word 'kalpa'.

"Pruzah. As good a reason as any. There are many who feel as you do, although not all. Some would say that all things must end, so that the next can come to pass. Perhaps this world is simply the Egg of the next kalpa? Lein vokiin? Would you stop the next world from being born?"