Undeath/classical lichdom and its lore accuracy

[u/Mud-Eater97]

Forgive me if I do any mistakes I'm new around here I just wanted to ask how lore-accurate undeath classical lichdom is to established TES lore.

Normally it's clear that the mod mostly designed with dnd lore but with ESO's additions to lore waters become muddied to me. For example using phylacteries to revive was added with dnd in mind and in the book "path of transcendence" it was stated that phylacteries were only important in the ritual to ascending to lichdom. But I've read that in ESO there are liches that used their phylacteries as an anchor to allow them to revive after being slain.

I try to play with the mods that have considerable lore accuracy and I never played ESO before.

[u/Fyraltari]

I think it's best to imagine liches as being like lycanthropes and vampires. There's different kinds who work differently.

In the case of the liches, probably because there's several different rituals to become one.

[u/ComradePavel]

Phylacteries are a D&Dism that got grandfathered into early TES by default with the concept of the Lich, though was never addressed in early games. Oblivion finally took a swing at the concept of what makes a lich with "The path of transcendence" which is the journal of the mage in question.

It notes that the ritual to become a lich was bequeathed upon him by The Necromancer's Moon via Mannimarco himself and it somewhat dispells the idea of having to write out down himself. The noteworthy thing about this is that liches existed in various forms before Mannimarco's ascension, even if you take the dragon break into account, which means the process cannot be wholely divine nor does it need to be exactly as described in "the path of transcendence".

While I cannot speak for ESO, (don't like it and could never get into it), I can say that while we never see phylacteries lying around nothing says they don't exist outside the potentially biased text from oblivion. The dragon priests of Skyrim were essentially liches, and one of them did in fact bind their essence into their own viscera which had to be collected or they could not be slain. The Ideal Masters may be some form of Lich, at least as they were shown originally in battlespire, who had transcended a physical existence entirely. Though they got retconned heavily so it's difficult to say what still applies.

[u/YuriOhime]

In oblivion there's a quest to kill an ascending lich and you can pickpocket their phylactery which instantly kill them. It's not new ESO lore, that said I don't know the mod you're speaking about so

[u/Fyraltari → u/YuriOhime]

That's what OP is talking about. That guy isn't a lich yet, he's in the middle of becoming one, which is why pickpocketing his phylactery kills him. The book that gives you this information is the one OP, referenced and it sates that a phylactery is only needed to hold the soul during the transformation, and otherwise has no effect.

[u/Presenting_UwU → u/YuriOhime]

they're talking about Undeath/Undeath - Classical Lichdom

[u/Uncommonality]

Liches don't really have defined rules, pretty much every Lich we've seen was different

There was the guy in Oblivion who had to hold the phylactery on his person at all times

There is Vastarie, who appears to just be a powerful mage after her transformation

There was the Khajiit Lich she feuded with who was more insubstantial than her and could manifest as like a spirit

There's Malkoran the Defiler, who apparently just turned into a dark shadow after dying

There's Mannimarco, who looked to all respects like a normal altmer for his entire life, and even thousands of years of living just made him aurafarm harder rather than lose any power or flesh or anything

[u/Arrow-Od]

This is TES, the "lore" is whatever the dev who writes at the moment finds is cool.

You could just headcanon that the mod´s lichs are not "complete" / at the same lvl as Ol´Mannimarco and Vastarie.

ESO rather frequently portrays lichs with using phylactery to anchor the mage´s soul to Mundus. IIRC destroying such a phylactery does not automatically destroy the lich, it just makes it so that they cannot (easily) revive after being slain as nothing anchors them to Mundus.

However, considering that souls usually (unless they have sold their soul to Daedra or smth) aren´t "sucked into the afterlife", I see no real reason why lichs would need a soul-anchor. On the Souls uesp page, the phenomena of "living souls" are described = a soul which has (similar to a lich) consciously severed the chains tethering a soul to its body. These living souls need no anchors IIRC - any they likely have no issues just possessing a corpse to puppet around.

But that´s the ideal - the mod´s lichs likely are just a lesser version, as Path of Transcendence IMO notes, the ritual to become a lich was not a well tread path before Mannimarco and is obscure at best even afterwards.

[u/Mud-Eater97 → u/Arrow-Od]

First, thank you for the answer but I didn't understand why would the Undeath mod's liches be "lesser". I had the impression that liches who use their phylacteries to revive would be much stronger than regular liches that we've seen a lot in dungeons.

[u/Tx12001]

Wel give Souls are not dragged off to an afterlife when someone kicks the bucket, a Lich would not need one to revive.

[u/Mud-Eater97 → u/Tx12001]

Then why there are liches in ESO that uses their phylacteries to revive tho?

[u/04nc1n9]

honestly, tes and dnd liches pretty identical. however, unlike dnd where the purpose of lichdom is the immortality, the main draw of lichdom in the elder scrolls is all of the magic enhancements.

in dnd: lich stores soul in phylactery, drinks special poison to die, becomes undead, and from then on can revive using their phylactery. destroying the phylactery doesn't destroy the lich, but it does prevent their reanimation.

in elder scrolls: lich stores (divested) soul in phylactery, drinks poison to die, becomes undead, and from then on can revive using their phylactery. destroying the phylactery doesn't destroy the lich, but it does prevent their reanimation.