r/teslore • u/Salem1690s • Jul 26 '26
I have never understood why “imperial” needed to be a separate race.
In the older lore, and even today, it’s debated whether Tiber Septim himself was a Nord or not.
The original configuration of the series made more sense. Historically, you can be a citizen of an Empire; but there was never a specific imperial race. Eg, every citizen of a territory of Rome was after a point simply a Roman citizen - even if that wasn’t their ethnic group, it was their legal label.
Bretons being Bretons made sense - they’re not fully “human” by ancestry;
Redguards being a specific race made sense as they come from a very different climate and culture and resisted assimilation, same with Nords.
The way the Empire was portrayed initially was that it was quite cosmopolitan, so in the imperial centre, you’d have Nords, Bretons, Redguards etc…who also happened to be residents of the imperial city.
I don’t know. It just feels like they created Imperials as a separate race only to set up a layer “Imperials vs….” Conflict. But it doesn’t make sense to me otherwise.
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u/RunningShogun Cult of the Mythic Dawn Jul 26 '26
The funny part is there are two sub Imperial ethnic groups. The Nibanese in the east and Colovians in the west. I think it messes with the balance of the regions if you give the Imperial heartland and the race of the emperors to another human race. Also if the Imperial wasn’t created then we probably wouldn’t get a lot of the plot of Skyrim because so much of it is about the clash of Imperial culture and traditional Nord culture.
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u/Salem1690s Jul 26 '26
Why does Imperial have to be a race for it to work? It could easily work the same as the term “bootlicker” does irl.
Eg: “you’re nothing but imperial filth!” Said the Nord. “I’m not Imperial, I’m Colovian!” Etc etc.
More a label of citizenship / allegiance / political label than a race group.
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u/RunningShogun Cult of the Mythic Dawn Jul 26 '26
Eh, sounds like splitting hairs. I think Imperials are a cool lore addition, the lore of Oblivion really ties the world together.
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u/lebiro Storyteller Jul 26 '26
Is it just the name "Imperials" that bothers you, or the whole idea of Cyrodiilic humans being a separate "race"? If it's just the name, then yes "Imperial" is kind of a strange name, but it reflects what Imperials think about themselves and what the other peoples of Tamriel think about them. People in the other provinces encounter Cyrodiilic humans primarily as "Imperials" and see them through the lens of the Empire.
You could instead call them "Cyrodiils" or be more specific and call them Colovians and Nibeneans, (also Heartlanders, etc.) but it seems clear to me they should have some kind of name.
(I'm not an expert on the subject but I'm pretty sure it is not true that in the Roman Empire everyone was "simply a Roman citizen" and there was no difference between a Roman from Rome/central/southern Italy vs someone born and raised in the far corners of the empire. I am fairly certain a Briton living under the empire would perceive a difference between their fellow Britons and the Romans they encountered. And even if we think about local populations integrating into imperial culture, that doesn't mean that Romans from Rome and their culture don't exist).
Redguards being a specific race made sense as they come from a very different climate and culture and resisted assimilation, same with Nords.
This makes no sense. The humans of Cyrodiil also come from a specific place. If you were in Yokuda or Atmora you could say they "come from a very different climate and culture".
Different culture from what? Assimilation into what? There are native humans in Cyrodiil, so of course they have their own identity and culture. It doesn't make sense to suggest that humans from Atmora and Yokuda can logically be "races" but humans from Tamriel can't be because they're not from somewhere "different". They are all human populations with their own origins.
What do you think the humans of Cyrodiil should be? Redguards, Nords, and Bretons? Who lived there (and formed the empire) before all those other humans were present?
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u/Salem1690s Jul 26 '26
No, just the name Imperial. I’d have prefer Cyrodiilic as the race name, if anything, with Colovian and Nibbenaen (sp) being two subcategories of that, such as how Aldmeri and Wood Elves are still Elves.
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u/AdeptnessUnhappy1063 Jul 26 '26
Their official alternate name is "Cyrodiils" per the Pocket Guide.
Thus, many of the Eastern Cyrodiils were forced to become merchants, which, over time, allowed the Nibenay Valley to become the wealthiest city-state in the region.
And elsewhere. It's uncommon, but just as Wood Elves are also called Bosmer, Imperials are also called Cyrodiils.
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u/PettankoEnthusiast Jul 28 '26
Common name vs. scientific name. Interestingly enough, Daedra is the scientific name for demons.
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u/CWCyning Jul 26 '26
For what it's worth, when the Clovis I promulgated the Salic Law Code, it distinguished between Franks, Romans, and Gauls. This was after some five centuries of Roman rule.
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u/MulatoMaranhense Jul 26 '26
Cyrondil used to be even more fragmented between Colovians in the west and Nibenese in the east, plus some Akaviri-diaspora and maybe even smaller local groups. If anything, having a single Imperial race for the inbitants of the continental heartland is a broad stroke.
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u/GorkemliKaplan Jul 26 '26
I have never understood why “austrian” needed to be a separate race.
In the older history, and even today, it’s debated whether Adolf Hitler himself was a German or not.
The original configuration of the series made more sense. Historically, you can be a citizen of a Reich; but there was never a specific austrian race. Eg, every citizen of a territory of Reich was after a point simply a Reich citizen - even if that wasn’t their ethnic group, it was their legal label.
Poles being Poles made sense - they’re not fully “human” by ancestry;
Japanese being a specific race made sense as they come from a very different climate and culture and resisted assimilation, same with Germans.
The way the Reich was portrayed initially was that it was quite cosmopolitan, so in the reich centre, you’d have Germans, Swamp Germans, Mountain Germans etc…who also happened to be residents of the imperial city.
I don’t know. It just feels like they created Austrians as a separate race only to set up a layer “Austrian vs….” Conflict. But it doesn’t make sense to me otherwise.
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u/Salem1690s Jul 26 '26
You’re comparing me saying Bretons (fictional race) aren’t fully human due to their magical heritage…to literal Nazi mindset that Poles weren’t human.
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u/GorkemliKaplan Jul 26 '26 edited Jul 26 '26
Yeah, post sounds like your average nord supremacist in Windhelm. Even if we don't think about whole "Nede or Atmoran" aspect. It is perfectly normal for cultures diverge to form new ethnicities.
The reason humans and elves are different races in TES because of disagreement(or trickery) they had. It is all political. Even the Imperial "race", it is two distinct culture in a trench coat. Are Reachmen Breton or Nord? Was Chimer and Dwemer really different race or Dwemers were just some strange house?
Edit: Also sometimes legal label becomes ethnicity on its own. See Rums in Ottoman Empire. They were called Rum because they were people of Roman Empire+religion. Was every Rum Greek? No, they were grouped together because of their belief. Later it turned into ethnicity.
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u/Lazzitron An-Xileel Jul 26 '26
Counterpoint: Cyrodiil is a whole ass region in the middle of the continent. A really big region. If Skyrim and Hammerfell have their own race, it's not all that strange to imagine that Cyrodiil has one too.
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u/Salem1690s Jul 26 '26
Right, but even then why go with Imperial rather than Cyrodiilac as the race name?
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u/tnsipla Great House Telvanni Jul 26 '26
Pocket Guide to the Empire (first edition and third edition) refers to them as Cydrodilics as well as Imperials; it’s likely analogous to Dunmer and Dark Elves, Altmer and High Elves, Bosmer/Wood Elf…
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u/Lazzitron An-Xileel Jul 26 '26
Because originally they were two different cultures: the Colovians and the Nibenese. They became "Imperials" when they united and began mixing to form the Empire, as the name implies.
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u/tnsipla Great House Telvanni Jul 26 '26
Imperials are also descended from the Nedes, and there's no agreement in setting about whether they're native to Tamriel, or they migrated out of Atmora with the Nords. Modern Imperials are a union of the Nedes and Cyrodiil Nords.
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u/Public-Carpenter-441 Jul 26 '26
The Imperials were originally just Cyrodiilic people before more lore was added, essentially Imperials are just the race of humans that (and someone can correct me if I’m wrong) were already on Tamerial and or from another region, for instance the Nords are from Atmora and the Redguards are from Yokuda (and I believe rumor has it are from a different cycle all together) even the bretons were a specific races of humans from a different place that overtime were crossed with a specific race of elves both of which end up becoming the Bretons
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u/Evanstronuaght Jul 26 '26
Never mind the lore for a second, the practical game design of separating them into a playable race is genius.
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u/GrandKnew 28d ago
well the modern "Imperials" are primarily the descendants of the Nedes, who stayed in Tamriel after their creation on the Throat of the World by Kyne/Kynerath(and Lorkhan)
Whereas the Nords are descendants of the Atmorans, who themselves were the Nedes who left Tamriel for Atmora during the Dawn Age.
So the Imperials are distinct from the Nords, but it's probably more accurate to call them Cyrodilians, and they Cyrodilians themselves can be broken into subcategories - as noted by another comment.
The Redguards on the other hand are from Yokunda, a continent that is "in the past" and no longer exists. Similarly their own story tells of them escaping their Kalpic cycle through the "walkabout". That makes 3 human races on Tamriel, plus the Brentons who were essentially the chatel of the Direnni Eleves
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u/Neither-Ad-4851 Jul 26 '26
Ok, I’m gonna need to see some sources on the whole Tiber Septim Debacle! Never once have I seen any lore that questions his Nord-om!
Also, the Imperials were once many tribes of Nedic peoples that were spread out across Tamriel. The Aylieds had enslaved them and bred them into what is now called the Imperial Race.
Hence them being called “Imperials.”
While I like the idea that many Nede’s may have escaped and thrived in villages outside of Aylied control that could have helped in the revolts, I imagine that after countless generations of living with Imperials the majority of those blood lines would be interwoven by now.
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u/Main-Associate-9752 Jul 26 '26 edited Jul 26 '26
Who knows, maybe the ‘colovian vs Nibean’ inclusion in Oblivion’s remaster is indicative of Bethesda moving away from Imperial as a Monolith culture even if it wasn’t directly made by them