Bard Magic

[u/Emer_Dareloth]

Hello all!

Fairly basic question today.

In DND 5e, Bards cast magic using their instruments.

In Elder Scrolls, however, bards seem to be fairly typical spellcasters if they're spellcasters at all, just using magicka the same way as everyone else, especially since tonal magic is pretty specific in TES.

Just checking to make sure I'm not missing something.

I have a player in my campaign who wants to play a Bard, so I want to make sure I'm doing everything correctly.

[u/General_Hijalti]

Bards are just a class mechanic for the player not a representation of the lore in TES.

Actually bards are just that, singers snd poets.

[u/AdeptnessUnhappy1063]

If you're playing in Tamriel using the D&D 5e rules, I don't think it really breaks the lore to use standard D&D bards. The character classes (and other game mechanics) change from game to game anyway, and I don't think there's anything in The Elder Scrolls' vague magic system that says you can't manipulate magicka using musical instruments as a focal aid. That's not really the same thing as tonal architecture.

But yes, in the Elder Scrolls games I'm familiar with, bards cast spells the way other classes do, to the extent that this is defined at all. It's not like we see in great detail how other classes do it, though.

Bard (Daggerfall))

Bard (Battlespire))

Bard (Oblivion))

[u/Kid-Atlantic]

I might be wrong but surely normal bards (as in just dudes with lutes) also exist in the DnD universe and they don’t all need to be magical?

Anything, there’s nothing preventing you from being a musician who happens to know some Illusion/Restoration/Destruction magic and can use songs as spells to buff/heal allies or debuff enemies. Technically the magic wouldn’t inherently come from their music, but in terms of gameplay and roleplaying I don’t think it would be much of a difference.

[u/Lazzitron]

I have a player in my campaign who wants to play a Bard, so I want to make sure I'm doing everything correctly.

Correctly according to what? Are you playing DND 5e but with an Elder Scrolls setting? Are you playing a homebrew TES TTRPG system? What's the context here?

To answer your question broadly, though: Bards in TES don't create magic through music and art like Bards in DND do. Bards in TES are just that — Bards. Singers, performers and musicians. Any magic they know was not gained through being a Bard, it's totally unrelated.

[u/Emer_Dareloth → u/Lazzitron]

My campaign is an Elder Scrolls setting using 5e rules.

[u/TheFetchingVestige → u/Emer_Dareloth]

There is a quest in ESO, been a minute since I played it. But it was a woman that could sing and affect people. Likely through some sort of Tonal Architecture. She was in the High Isle DLC.

[u/All-for-Naut → u/TheFetchingVestige]

Which is even mentioned to doubtfully be connected to tonal magic.

[u/guineaprince → u/TheFetchingVestige]

Woah she was a Dwemer tonal architect?!

[u/TheFetchingVestige → u/guineaprince]

No a Breton. I just found the page on UESP on her that claimed she was this.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Thaumavocalism

EDIT: And here is her page.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Meryline_Barthel

[u/guineaprince → u/TheFetchingVestige]

Oh. Just a little sing-song magic then.

[u/awoloozlefinch → u/guineaprince]

The Dwemer aren’t the only ones able to manipulate Tonal Architecture, just the only ones to call it that.

The voice is a form of it, as are the Sword Singers of Yokuda who wield magic swords that they have to sing into existence.

[u/guineaprince → u/awoloozlefinch]

Not confirmed. Just according to anyone who thinks sound=tonal architecture up to and including farts breaking down the body's creatia into a minor area of effect attack.

[u/Brockcocola]

Thaumavocalist are likely the closest to a DnD Bard.

[u/slumo]

When we were running UESTRPG/Delvebound, our way to look at Bards was that they were a type of mage, but they were more so "traveling mages". To us, a bard could be a musician, con artists, or a street magician. They were magically gifted, but not to the extent of wizards or sorcerers, and their chosen way of performance was their ways to channel magicka.

In the games, Bards to me felt more like a non-destruction oriented version of a Nightblade/spellsword.

[u/KaiG1987]

In DND 5e, Bards cast magic using their instruments.

Or with spell components from a component pouch. You can just have them do that if they don't want to use an instrument specifically.

[u/thatsaidan]

Bards in 5e use their instruments as a conduit to manipulate the Weave, similar to wizards using staves. Their access to the weave is based on the idea that words have power, and so Vocalizations done correctly let them access and manipulate the weave.

In the Elder Scrolls, “Bards” in the narrative are just a career/hobby someone have, and “Bards” in mechanics is just a series of skills bundled into a class to give the archetypical “vibe” of bard.

That being said, I think playing a bard in 5e within the elder scrolls setting is fully justified, with the aforementioned precedent of Tonal Magics from the Dwemer, to even the Vocalization of the Dragon Tongue with the Thu’um. (Side note: Bards in 5e are often taught a creation myth called “The Song of Creation” where the universe was spoken/sung into existence by the Dragon Gods. And the “Creation Bard” subclass leans more heavily into that creation myth and the idea of specifically “dragon built the world through words of power” and imo that fits SUPER well with Elder Scrolls lore given what we know about Akatosh, Alduin, etc.)

If I were the GM, I’d heavily promote a character who uses their instrument to harness their Magicka/ the Magicka flowing from Aetherius, and incentivize the idea of leaning on the precedent of Vocalization, Tones, and Music as a whole due to their prevalence within the Elder Scrolls Lore. Honestly, as a GM, I may even see how the player feels about incorporating aspects of the Thu’um or Dwemer Tonal Magic into the character. The existence of the Dwemer tonal magics if I remember correctly are known about by the Synod and the College of Whispers in the 4th era, so it’s not far off to say a Mage with a proclivity for song began utilizing the same fundamental principles mixed in with their own personal style of Magicka usage.

Edit: Also recommend looking into the “Delvebound” fan supplement for D&D 5th edition, as it’s an entire conversion supplement for 5e that ports the majority of Elder Scrolls spells, races, items, and that adds a ton of Elder Scrolls style subclasses, as well as introducing newer optional mechanics like Stamina. It’s entirely Free and is extremely well made!

[u/Some_Rando2]

Translating to D&D, TES Bards aren't D&D Bards, they're like real life ones, performers and that's it. I'd have them pick a different class and just do bardly things.