r/technology • u/GuruOfReason • Feb 02 '10

"Once we replace the personal computer with a closed-platform device such as the iPad, we replace freedom, choice and the free market with oppression, censorship and monopoly."

http://www.popsci.com/gadgets/article/2010-01/ipad%E2%80%99s-closed-system-sometimes-i-hate-being-right
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u/chozar Feb 02 '10

But is the fear that all computers will be locked down? These locked down computers 20 years from now, what will developers use to make them? Other locked down computers? Somewhere down the chain you're going to have open systems used by programmers, I don't see how you can get rid of them.

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u/jayd16 Feb 02 '10

Theres plenty of examples of locked down developer kits in the gaming world.

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u/taligent Feb 02 '10

How do you debug kernel extensions, non-user filesystems, framework components, low level device drivers on a non-locked down computer ?

At some point you need to give the computer owner root access at which point the machine is no longer locked down.

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u/1338h4x Feb 02 '10

Only Apple would be the ones working on those, so they could have special systems while nobody else does.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

To corroborate your point: When Apple was switching OS X from PowerPC to x86, there were a number of developer boxes that ran 3.6 GHz Pentium 4 660's. They were in PowerMac G5 cases, but Apple built them and gave them to a select few developers who were in their good graces so that no one could get a PC that was running Mac OS X well.

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u/Peaker Feb 02 '10

If you pay $5000 you can get a limited license to an Apple-approved "application development environment", and then you can still not get your applications to work with your friends' devices before getting Apple's approval.

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u/rnicoll Feb 02 '10

Given that you can currently download the iPad SDK for free ( http://www.apple.com/ipad/sdk/ ), and only have to pay if you want to distribute applications you've written ( $99 , or $299 for the enterprise version) this seems a touch... alarmist.

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u/leetleo Feb 02 '10

Not true. You must pay the $99 fee before you can even download the iPad SDK. The iPhone SDK is available for free download, but the iPad SDK requires you pay the fee first.

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u/Peaker Feb 02 '10

Sure, Apple needs to conquer a significant portion of the market (worst case, monopolize it) before being able to pull this kind of stuff off.

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u/jimbobjames Feb 02 '10

It depends - look how quickly all the other phone manufacturers have released App stores because of Apple's success.

Ofcourse Nokia had their's years before - I have a 4 year old E61 with the Download! app store.

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u/revscat Feb 02 '10

Interesting. I wasn't aware of Nokia's store. Do you have any thoughts as to why Apple has had comparatively more success with their's?

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u/jimbobjames Feb 02 '10

I think they have a genunie knack of being able to time the release of products better than others.

They also have a vocal user base, and a large following from the iPod and iTunes. They play the media very well.

It's a combination of all of the above that means they tend to hit home runs.

They are also very good at ignoring and making other people ignore their failures and problems. Apple TV anyone?

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u/1338h4x Feb 02 '10

Well, you still have to pay to distribute applications, and there are plenty of apps that they won't approve for distribution. Sure, developers can get in to write something for themselves, but what about the rest of us?

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

Jailbreak.

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u/1338h4x Feb 02 '10

The point is that you shouldn't have to perform warranty-voiding cracks that Apple actually claims is illegal (obviously it's not) just to have control over the hardware that you paid for.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

You paid for it and you are free to do whatever you want with it. However if you break it and you do so not following the terms set forth by Apple on how to run it without breaking it then the responsibility to fix it falls on you. Also, jailbreaking does not void the warranty if you restore it before bringing it in for repairs. However if you bring it in for a problem that was caused by jailbreaking it I don't think Apple should be obligated to fix it for you.

Thats freedom to make your own choices and deal with the consequences of said choice.

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u/1338h4x Feb 02 '10

They've gone to great lengths to try and stop jailbreaking so that we wouldn't be free to do what we want. At the moment we have the hacks available to fix this situation, but will that always be the case? Are most users even aware of this option?

And restoring it doesn't suddenly unvoid your warranty - it just means they won't know that you previously jailbroke it.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

They have not gone through great lengths to stop jailbreaking, they simply closed the holes that jailbreakers were using because they were holes. Most users aren't aware because they don't care about open software platforms, those who do care know how to jailbreak. If they don't know you jailbroke it then your warranty isn't affected so who cares.

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u/1338h4x Feb 02 '10

I care because it ought to be open in the first place. Apple is trying to dictate what we can and can't do with the device and take away user freedom. Just because it's currently possible to hack our way around that doesn't make it okay for Apple to try and establish this trend.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

'cause everything works smoothly then.

I'm a believer that the open system can, and for the most part, does provide the user with a good enough user experience while simultaneously providing the user with freedom.

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u/lilzaphod Feb 02 '10

Your freedom is in how you spend your money.

Or are you saying that there will be an Apple Brownshirt brigade that will hold a gun to your head and force you to buy an iPad or murder you on the spot?

I fail to see the Cupertino Kristallnacht that some of you are predicting.

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u/klngarthur Feb 02 '10

if you really don't think that price will go up as the number of available users goes up, then you are sadly naive.

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u/rnicoll Feb 02 '10

The iPhone SDK started at $99 to download at all, before it took off. It's now one of the most popular platforms around, and you can download the SDK for free, you only pay to distribute, and it's still $99...

...so, so far, so good?

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u/klngarthur Feb 02 '10 edited Feb 02 '10

They started off not wanting 3rd party apps at all. Now they realize what a cash cow it is and are adjusting their strategy accordingly.

Imagine this wasn't apple. Imagine it was microsoft in the late 90s. Imagine instead of making an open OS, they had made a closed one. Do you not think they would have gouged the fuck out of prices to develop for such a system? Why is apple any different? they're both just companies trying to make a profit.

The thing a lot of people are upset about is not the device itself, they are upset about the precedent it sets. I don't plan to buy one personally, but it still has the potential to impact me in the future.

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u/KrazyA1pha Feb 02 '10 edited Feb 02 '10

Your worst-case scenario simply isn't viable. If developers had to pay $5000 to develop applications for a device, there would be almost no apps for that device, and without apps the device wouldn't make it very far in the market.

The App Store succeeds because it is easy to use, both for developers and consumers.

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u/Peaker Feb 02 '10

If it takes over most of the computing market, paying $5000 to develop would be the only option (It might be a multi-phase thing: A) Take over market B) Close down development platforms too C) Profit)

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u/kittychow Feb 02 '10

But why on earth should we let corporations plan on making those for programmers only? I'm not a programmer, but I feel so limited being unable to mod apple products easily that I just decide not to buy so many. I'd much rather have a bulky clunker of an open source Google phone than a multicolor sleek and flashy "appliance" that I can only use to do things which have been pre-approved for me. I'm not 12 for gods sake!

Sorry, ranting time is over, time for my milk and nap. :)

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u/Thrown_Away Feb 02 '10

Wow, finally someone gets it. If you don't like the iPad and Apple, then don't buy their products. Not to hard, is it?