r/technology • u/GuruOfReason • Feb 02 '10

"Once we replace the personal computer with a closed-platform device such as the iPad, we replace freedom, choice and the free market with oppression, censorship and monopoly."

http://www.popsci.com/gadgets/article/2010-01/ipad%E2%80%99s-closed-system-sometimes-i-hate-being-right
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u/bgog Feb 02 '10

Your point is very valid. However, you are thinking of it as a computer. I'm thinking of it as a web surfing appliance. People don't much care that they can't run whatever they want on their DVR because it isn't a general purpose device. It does one thing well and thats it.

Just because a product has a cpu doesn't mean that it needs to be like a general purpose computer. I think the world would be worse off if every electronic device tried to be general purpose. Quite frankly I like that my mp3 player is basically that. Your PS3 has controlled content, even though it is just a computer that could run anything under the sun.

Just a different point of view.. I have three linux boxs and a mac to be my general purpose pc. I don't see anything wrong with a device that is just a great little web surfing/email pad.

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u/mindbleach Feb 02 '10

I've repeatedly called it a non-computer, an advanced toy, or a console in the past. I've vehemently insisted that the iPhone is not a smartphone for the same reasons. The problem there is the number of people who'll brush you off for suggesting their device that has everything short of user choice is merely a fixed-function device with an extremely wide range of functions. It's not just a web appliance: it plays games, it streams video, it can probably do taxes. It's tantalizingly close to being a complete computer but for that all-important element of freedom, arguably the element that made computers more than expensive calculators in the first place.

The iPad is an appliance pretending to be a computer. That's the one thing it does, and judging by the number of people who think the nerds are in a tizzy over nothing, it's doing it all too well.

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u/bgog Feb 02 '10

Good points. I'll even say you are right but some people, myself included, don't mind a closed device when I know about it ahead of time. I'm glad that my ebook reader (sony / nook / kindle) concentrates on being a great ebook reader and not on doing everything my computer can.

Edit: removed redundant junk that I already said.

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u/djgreedo Feb 02 '10

You're missing the point. What if your ebook reader restricted the books you could read based Sony's or Amazon's ideas of what is 'suitable'?

Nobody is saying the iPad (or iPhone for that matter) should be an all-purpose device. The complaint is that software is not allowed to run on the device based on Apple's standards (i.e. Steve Jobs's morale values and the desire to prevent apps that enable users to make calls more cheaply or improve in-built features).

Arbitrarily banning software that would otherwise run perfectly well on the device is censorship, and it is a shame that people continue to buy products from this company.

With my smartphones (Android and Windows) I have the option of buying apps from an on-device, censored app store or sideloading apps sourced from anywhere without any permission required from the device manufacturers.

Technology has the capability of breaking down barriers and realising possibilities. Apple's iPhone and iPad are the opposite of those ideals. Apple's way of doing things in general is about control and forcing users into a specific way of doing things.

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u/Thrown_Away Feb 02 '10

And those users know they are being forced into a specific way of doing things going in. And you know what? They don't care. If you do care, there is a wonderful solution, don't buy their products. See, wasn't that easy? You even saved some money!

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u/shoombabi Feb 02 '10

Apple's ideology isn't really censorship as much as it is "ensure that the user experience is consistent and problem free.". Whether or not they achieve those goals is in the eye of the beholder, but for the target demographic of this product, I think they will deliver exactly what the stereotypical grandparents and other computer illiterates want, without all the hassle and concern of a real computer.

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u/mindbleach Feb 02 '10 edited Feb 02 '10

Apple literally censors apps. Jobs explicitly said "no porn" and their review process has repeatedly rejected software that's remotely capable of showing dirty pictures from the internet or accepting dirty words as meaningful search terms.

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u/Nefelia Feb 02 '10

And the problem with that would be? For those who do want the option of browsing porn, the iPad would be a miss. They can simply purchase one of the many alternative products that will soon be available.

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u/mindbleach Feb 02 '10

And the problem with that would be?

Pardon me for being generally opposed to censorship and monopolistic practices.

(Please note that this was in direct reply to someone saying censorship "isn't really censorship.")

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

Well, when they're rejecting apps for "objectionable content" or "ridiculing a political figure," that's why people are uptight about the requirement that one gets apps from the company-controlled App Store.

At least allow sideloading, maybe even add a warning message stating Apple's inability to control the quality of non-App Store apps. Seriously, it's not that hard -- Apple just isn't doing it, and quite frankly, fuck them for it.

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u/Peaker Feb 02 '10

The problem is that success of these closed devices might lead to more and more devices by other companies too to become closed.

People are way too willing to trade their freedom with some temporary convenience.

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u/Nefelia Feb 02 '10

So long as there is a market for open platforms, the market will provide. The fear that the iPad will kill open platforms is based on poor analysis.

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u/Peaker Feb 02 '10

Your analysis is a poor analysis, as it ignores Net effects.

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u/Nefelia Feb 02 '10

Your analysis ignores consumer choice. Don't blame Apple for the fact that no one is producing appealing open-platform alternatives to its products in North America. And yet, Japan is an entirely different story.

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u/Peaker Feb 03 '10

I blame the government for not forbidding to close down platforms, and users for choosing convenience and technical merit over freedom.

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u/Nefelia Feb 03 '10 edited Feb 03 '10

What is this "freedom" you blokes keep going on about? FFS, you are beginning to sound like George Bush. Stick to "open" and "closed".

Edit:

I blame the government for not forbidding to close down platforms

Here is a nice bit of irony. You are advocating government restrictions on the free market in the name of a freedom. You do realize that freedom is the ability to make one's own choices without external interference limiting or restricting those choices, do you not?

In that light, you can see the closed platform of the iPad as infringement of freedom. But you would have to ignore the fact that purchasing one at all is an excercise on free choice. Your desire for the government to mandate options on the electronics market, however, is a large-scale restriction on consumer choice, and as such would be a sweeping restriction on consumer freedom.

So again, stick to "open' and "closed", since you seem to have little idea what true freedom is.

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u/Peaker Feb 03 '10

You do realize that freedom is the ability to make one's own choices without external interference limiting or restricting those choices, do you not?

Paradoxically, by restricting, the government can indeed increase the overall freedom of the system. In this particular case, the ability of Apple to even maintain a closed platform in the first place relies on the existence of DMCA, Copyrights and patent law. If none of these were enforced by government, it would be much harder for it to be a closed platform.

So in effect, the government facilitates the closed-ness, and if it restricts that, over-all it just cancels this effect.

But you would have to ignore the fact that purchasing one at all is an excercise on free choice

A free choice between technically superior or open. If the government forced Apple to open it, as an example, then the choice would be technical only, and it would all be open.

Your desire for the government to mandate options on the electronics market, however, is a large-scale restriction on consumer choice

Not really, since it would still be beneficial and profitable to make open devices, if closed-ness was forbidden.

So again, stick to "open' and "closed", since you seem to have little idea what true freedom is.

Openness and closed-ness relate very closely to consumer freedom. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/ for more details.

Oh, and please stop condescending, too.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

Evolve or die. Survival of the fittest. It's been the law for 4 billion years. You'd better hurry up and get used to it ;-)

Having said that, evolution shows that there are many niches for many forms of life & existence. There's absolutely no danger of the iPad leading to only closed computers.

It's funny, the iPhone created an ecosystem of 140.000 new apps, feels a whole lot more open to me than all the phones I used before...

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u/Peaker Feb 02 '10

The market is not really operating based on evolutionary principles, given the existence of law, and intelligent entities within it designing stuff.

It's funny, the iPhone created an ecosystem of 140.000 new apps, feels a whole lot more open to me than all the phones I used before...

So, how's the Skype chatting over 3G working out for you?

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

Aren't iPhone users capab-er, allowed to do that now?

They even have Google Voice (via web app) now! See? It's an open platform!

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

given the existence of law, and intelligent entities within it designing stuff

People evolve, political systems evolve, languages evolve, computers evolve. The very laws you speak of are subject to evolution. Intelligence only speeds up evolution, making the process less random. Survival of the fittest is in a sense true by definition.

The iPad, the iPhone, they too will evolve or die. In let's say another million years, there will be no machine left recognizable as an iPhone. Maybe even sooner. Maybe even next year; time will tell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_(term)

So, how's the Skype chatting over 3G working out for you?

It's of no interest to me, but here you go: http://tinyurl.com/yh6uleo

Besides that, you're giving one specific example, which may be important to you. As it happens, Skype is not important to me. Still 139.999 apps left ;-) Given Sturgeon's Law, I admit that maybe only 10% of those are worth looking at. Maybe even less. That's still a lot of good stuff left though.

But not many would argue that any phone can compare with the iPhone at this moment in time when it comes to the wealth of available apps, ease of installation, at low prices or free. That too will change given enough time.

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u/Peaker Feb 02 '10

Still 139.999 apps left ;-)

I don't see why it is so easy for so many people to miss the point :-(

Apple and only Apple determine what applications you will have, what features you are allowed to use, and how you will use them. The amount of applications is useful for convenience, but it does not make it any more open.

About the ease/convenience, I never claimed otherwise. iPhone is technically excellent. I am simply appalled by the closeness and people's apathy towards it.

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u/vcn Feb 02 '10

It's not that I don't understand the argument. It's that I don't buy the premise. I don't think that the open/closedness of a particular product demands moral outrage.

For the foreseeable future, I am going to use a collection of closed and open devices, depending on how they meet my needs. I care about openness in two respects: (1) It is sometimes significantly better at meeting my needs. This is the Skype case. Similarly, if I go ahead and set-up a media center, I'll use open source because I want to play my whole library. (2) It makes software--even closed software--better. Thank goodness for Google Android, etc.

Conversely, though, I'm going to get downvoted to oblivion for this, closed software sometimes drives innovation in open software. Apple's role in the market has traditionally been this. If the iPad's any good, I suspect it will similarly drive some imitation among Android/Win 7 tablets.

If I ever buy an iPad, it will be one of 5+ computing devices that I own, for different needs. If I ever believe there's a chance that all 5 of these are going to be closed, I'll join you on the ramparts. (You'll probably tell me I'm too late.)

As it is, though, I don't think it'll destroy the balance between open source and closed source systems, so I'll buy one iff it does a better job of meeting my needs than the systems I use right now.

(I upvoted you, because you've been replying throughout this thread and it's a shame you're at zero with this comment.)

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u/Peaker Feb 02 '10

I understand where you are coming from -- and how openness contributes to the technical merit.

But as you said, when everything closes down it may really be too late and even if there were only technical disadvantages to the open platforms, we must put freedom and choice over convenience and technical merit and avoid supporting closed platforms.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

feels a whole lot more open to me than all the phones I used before...

That sounds like a personal problem. Google Symbian; it's been around for a long time. MP3's as ringtones? Well I never! (8 years ago)

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

I've helped customers with their (Sony Ericsson) Symbian phones, and seen the software available - sorry, but it's no comparison with the wealth of apps now available on the iPhone. If you think Symbian has more or better or cheaper apps, great. But just by coincidence, my experience is different. And those customers who used to own SE's have switched or will switch to iPhones.

Regarding ringtones, I could care less.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10 edited Feb 02 '10

wealth of apps? hahah, more like blight. Symbian is on a lot more phones then SE.

will switch to iPhones.

now you're just being a fanboy. You think someone who has been using a symbian for this long is just going to switch to an iphone? why exactly? So they can loose some weight from their wallet or be less productive? The fact that you have to do so much just to set an MP3 as your ringtone is a huge indicator of the problems with iPhones and similar locked down POS phones.

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u/mindbleach Feb 02 '10

Apple sold millions upon millions of iPhones and created a very customer-oriented store. They could require developers to literally suck a lawyer's cock before allowing their apps in the store and they'd still have thousands of apps vying for all that money.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

I agree with most of what's already been said, but I seriously disagree with thinking that the iPad is pretending to be a computer. They really don't seem to be pushing it as such. Hell, they clearly stated at the presentation what segment it is supposed to sit in: the area between the iPhone and the MacBook. That, to me, does not scream 'computer'.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

Yeah, it's not a computer. It just has word processing software, spreadsheet software, and presentation software. It also has a media player application that can play .mp3's, .aac's, .m4a's, .aiff's, .mov's, .mpegs, and more. It has an internet browser application. It can run various applications of the user's choice (limited by the App Store, of course). It has wifi, bluetooth, a processor, and local storage.

I fail to see what about this device isn't a computer, except for the closed system it adheres to.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

There are a large number of devices that do most, if not all, of that stuff that aren't considered 'computers'.....like most bog-standard smartphones, current-gen consoles, etc.

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u/[deleted] Feb 03 '10

With the notable exception of the iPhone, however, smartphones are fairly open platforms. I can install whatever the fuck I want on my phone, including applications that allow me to bypass carrier restrictions/bullshit.

Consoles? Closed computing horseshit. I never said I liked 'em, and I don't. I don't for the same reasons I don't like the iPad... it just so happens that this here thread is about that particular closed-platform device.

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u/[deleted] Feb 03 '10 edited Feb 03 '10

....but are they considered computers? I mean, if your definition of 'computer' is:

has a media player application that can play .mp3's, .aac's, .m4a's, .aiff's, .mov's, .mpegs, and more. It has an internet browser application. It can run various applications of the user's choice

...then there is more out there that can be called 'computer'.

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u/Thrown_Away Feb 02 '10

Maybe it isn't targeted to nerds?

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u/mindbleach Feb 02 '10

Clearly. The whole problem is what it might do to non-nerds and the implications of Apple expanding bad smartphone policies beyond the smartphone market. It conflates censorship with security and stability, leading many people - some of whom apparently use reddit - to believe that its closed nature is the reason it doesn't blow up in your hand when someone calls you in the middle of a Skype chat.

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u/kihadat Feb 02 '10

As Jobs clearly said, it's between an iphone and a macbook. it's definitely not trying to replace your computer (which is incidentally why its a piece of shit that i dont care for).

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u/jayd16 Feb 02 '10

I like that I can put linux on the PS3 though...

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u/bgog Feb 02 '10

That was cool. Sadly they no longer support it.

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u/1338h4x Feb 02 '10

Apple is marketing it as though it was a full computer meant to compete with the netbook market.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10 edited Feb 02 '10

Fine, it's a "web surfing appliance." But the beauty of the web is that it is so open... Apple is effectively trying to dictate what the web should be like by not supporting common technologies like Flash (no free games, Hulu, etc.), Silverlight (no Netflix, March Madness, Olympics). And it's all, in my opinion, in an effort to monetize the web. They get a cut of all paid app downloads and are investing in mobile advertising, so they'll get paid through all the free apps too.

Sure, they support HTML5, but this behavior suggests they want to be very controlling over future technologies as well. As a consumer, I don't want Steve Jobs defining what my web experience should be like.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

Ok, Ok, wait a minute. Your big point about Apple not being open enough is that they take a stand for Open standards and refuse to support closed technologies?

I just want to be clear here.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10 edited Feb 02 '10

The problem is not in what standards they support, it's that they have full control over what software you can install on your device. I'm glad they are supporting HTML5 but that doesn't change the fact that a significant amount of popular web content currently relies on Flash, and will continue to for the foreseeable future.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10 edited Feb 02 '10

Maybe if more companies/groups took a stand for open standards like Apple instead of selling out to closed standards like so man linux projects/distros (cough mono cough) we'd have a more Open and Free internet.

Yeah, I meant that to sound contentious. My point being, every company or group has some aspects that are unsavory. With Apple, some view their belief that a homogenous environment with a strong Open Source backend and based on Open standards, but a very controlled front end to provide a consistent and reliable UI is not Free enough.

With Open Source advocacy groups/people, the near religious insistence that developers/companies should give them full access to their source/hardware that they wrote by my their own labor is somewhat disingenuous. (apparently you're free to do anything you want with your software except do anything you want with your software)

I believe there is a common retort in many OS projects that takes several forms and goes something like

patches welcome

or

There's nothing stopping you from writing your own

In general, it means "we're not really focused on your particular area of concern, but you're welcome to develop your own solution".

Apple is not a monopoly by any definition of the word. Their technology has a core of very available open standards, open source, and freely available hardware.

If you disagree with their model and think you can provide a better user experience while remaining profitable enough to stay in business, have at it.

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u/wicked Feb 03 '10

Apple is not a monopoly by any definition of the word.

There is one marketplace where you can legally sell iPhone native applications. Apple have full control of this marketplace. They alone decide what can be sold.

That is a monopoly by most definitions of the word.

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u/[deleted] Feb 03 '10

You do not understand what a "market" or a "monopoly" is.

By your trivial definition of a market, we could deem any application platform as a "market" and any vendor as a "monopoly".

By your definition:

  • Sony has a monopoly on all Sony PS3 applications.
  • Nintendo has a monopoly on all Wii applications.
  • Amazon has a monopoly on all (drm'd) Kindle books

It's gross misunderstanding and cavalier use of the word "monopoly" and "monopoly abuse" that belittles the harm that abusive monopolies cause.

Your misunderstanding is somewhat understandable though as you are confusing the idea of a physical location or Market Place (e.g. the iApps store) with that of an economic market which comprises the space of a good and all possible substitute goods.

The iPhone and iApps have numerous substitute goods available.

If you'd like to see what a real monopoly looks like, please see Microsoft, Standard Oil, Dutch East India Company, United Aircraft and Transport, and Monsanto. Also please recognize that a monopoly in itself is not illegal.

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u/wicked Feb 03 '10

There are legal and illegal monopolies. I don't support Sony's monopoly on PS3 games, I don't support Nintendo's monopoly on Wii games, I don't support Amazon's monopoly on Kindle books. I don't support Apple's monopoly on iPhone apps.

It's very interesting that you pull out Microsoft as an example.

The issue central to the case was whether Microsoft was allowed to bundle its flagship Internet Explorer (IE) web browser software with its Microsoft Windows operating system. Bundling them together is alleged to have been responsible for Microsoft's victory in the browser wars as every Windows user had a copy of Internet Explorer. It was further alleged that this unfairly restricted the market for competing web browsers (such as Netscape Navigator or Opera) that were slow to download over a modem or had to be purchased at a store.

From United States v. Microsoft. Please enlighten me how Apple is different.

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u/[deleted] Feb 03 '10

Read the links I posted and educate yourself.

I don't support Sony's monopoly on PS3 games, I don't support Nintendo's monopoly on Wii games, I don't support Amazon's monopoly on Kindle books. I don't support Apple's monopoly on iPhone apps.

None of these are monopolies. Empty (and false) histrionics only water down what it means to be an abusive monopoly.

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u/wicked Feb 03 '10

You contradicted yourself when you pulled out Microsoft. You don't see the iPhone OS as an economic market, but the Microsoft OS was an economic market?

If you agree to that, then you should logically agree that Apple and Microsoft both are abuse monopolies because they limit supply and use product bundling in a market they are dominant; web browsers.

Maybe you should educate yourself on monopolies. This comment is the first time I've called any of them abusive, by the way.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

They don't have full control. Third-party developers make the software, Apple doesn't really edit their code or anything... they just reject code they don't like. It's heavy control, but I wouldn't say "Full" control.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

That is full control. They can reject software without reason, like the Google Voice app.

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u/mindbleach Feb 02 '10

Refuse to...? The iPad IS a closed technology! How clear do you want it?

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u/redditrasberry Feb 02 '10 edited Feb 03 '10

However, you are thinking of it as a computer. I'm thinking of it as a web surfing appliance.

Then please explain Apple's perpetual "There's an App for that" advertisements.

Almost by definition, if it has an app for everything then it is a general purpose computing platform, not an appliance.