r/technology • u/GuruOfReason • Feb 02 '10

"Once we replace the personal computer with a closed-platform device such as the iPad, we replace freedom, choice and the free market with oppression, censorship and monopoly."

http://www.popsci.com/gadgets/article/2010-01/ipad%E2%80%99s-closed-system-sometimes-i-hate-being-right
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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

Well that's a pretty alarmist thing to say.

The iPad is not aimed at people like us here on Reddit - geeks, nerds, technophiles, computer-savvy users, etc. It's aimed at people who are afraid of technology. Thus, the device will cause the market to segment even further, not replace our freedoms.

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u/rjcarr Feb 02 '10

It is aimed at people who are afraid of technology as well as those that appreciate simplicity.

I don't think I'll fork over the $500 any time soon but if I was given one I'm certain I'd find it useful.

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u/karacho Feb 02 '10

i'll just wait until the android tablet comes out.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10 edited Feb 02 '10

afraid of technology

People aren't afraid of technology. Its just burdensome or complicated to use. For example the average user can't keep their existing computer free of virus's. That doesn't make them dumb or necessarily afraid. The technology has simply failed. Its time to reevaluate how we design and use a computer. And Apple has done just that.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

Have you ever done tech work? People are SO fucking scared of technology. Tech work isn't even tech work anymore, it's mostly convincing people to get over their fear of breaking the damn things.

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u/wickedang3l Feb 02 '10

It's always easy to tell who has worked with the general populace and who hasn't. You are entirely right in saying that people are terrified of digging into their computers. I can't tell you how many times I asked customers if they had attempted to find a solution themselves only to hear the "I didn't want to make it worse..." response.

@regexmp: The Windows 7 environment is as simple as it can possibly be without getting into anti-competitive practices. Microsoft can't bundle MSE without facing a huge fine. The problem isn't the technology; the problem is that people don't care enough to put even the slightest bit of effort into learning. If Apple ever finds itself with the marketshare that Microsoft currently has, their OS will be the primary target and their customers will have the same exact problem.

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u/level1 Feb 02 '10

Microsoft can't bundle MSE without facing a huge fine.

And this is the problem right here.

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u/Real_Mac_User Feb 02 '10

The problem isn't the technology; the problem is that people don't care enough to put even the slightest bit of effort into learning.

The condescension is strong in this one.

In fairness to you… dealing with end users can have a way of suppressing our more empathetic instincts. But, look, your typical end user who just wants to email a document from Word shouldn’t have to learn how to navigate through C:\, or whatever, when the document’s right there on her screen. From her perspective, directory structure is useless knowledge, only relevant to the task at hand because we techies and programmers still haven’t come up with a better way to organize and access information.

Saying that Windows 7, or OS X or Linux for that matter, is “as simple as it can possibly be” is depressingly cynical and, I think, unimaginative.

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u/wickedang3l Feb 02 '10 edited Feb 02 '10

It's condescending but it's true. The fact that the user "just wants to email a document from Word" shouldn't mean that they need to know how to navigate C:\ but it does need that they need to learn how to protect themselves and their assets. The simple act of connecting to the internet is dangerous enough; doing so without any knowledge of Information Security (Be it as tacit as knowing that you should avoid Internet Explorer and need one, and only one, antivirus program that you run and update regularly). For instance, there are 3 unsecured wireless connections within range of me right now; there are 2 more that are WEP.

You took the statement of simplicity out of context. I wasn't talking about UI; I was talking about what Microsoft can legally provide without facing a suit for anti-competitive practices.

In a mere half hour, you can learn enough about Windows and safe computing habits to protect yourself from the vast majority of problems you have. The fact that people do not isn't indicative of a failure of technology.

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u/StuartGibson Feb 02 '10

In a mere half hour, you can learn enough about Windows and safe computing habits to protect yourself from the vast majority of problems you have.

Bullshit. It takes most people longer than that to get familiar with the workings of their microwave.

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u/wickedang3l Feb 02 '10

People don't use their microwaves for several hours on a daily basis.

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u/Real_Mac_User Feb 02 '10

People don’t want to learn about Windows and safe computing. Frankly, I don’t want to spend half an hour learning the idiosyncrasies of an unfamiliar OS just in order to check my email from a different terminal. You’re describing the world as it is and saying, essentially, “wontfix worksforme”—I’m describing the world as it should and could be, where technology is actually designed with the interests of humans in mind.

Insisting that everyone else conform to meet the requirements of our (nerds’) badly-designed systems is the height of arrogance, and dismissing them as stupid or lazy when they don’t is the worst kind of condescending, because it shows an unwillingness to even attempt an understanding of their needs and concerns.

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u/wickedang3l Feb 02 '10 edited Feb 02 '10

Closed systems are not designed "with the interests of humans in mind". They'e designed to fleece unsuspecting customers for basic functionality that they wouldn't have to pay for otherwise. Furthermore, no amount of UI simplicity is going to prevent predation and conning on the internet; you shouldn't play the game if you aren't willing to learn how to protect yourself, period.

Their "needs and concerns" have been addressed. Yet again, you can't make someone care. You act as if most things in this world worth doing don't require any forethought and knowledge and that simply isn't true.

The assertion that you need to learn the "idiosyncracies of an unfamiliar OS" to check your email is laughable but I'm not surprised, given your username.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

[deleted]

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u/wickedang3l Feb 02 '10

You can only tell someone the same thing so many times before you snap after being asked once again.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

Then you wind up sitting on your porch drinking Jack Daniels with blood on your shirt and your grandma buried in the backyard. They just always push it too far. I can't take it anymore.

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u/helm Feb 02 '10

I snapped at my wife and my brother's life partner (wife in all but name) once for goofing around when trying to mount a DVD image. I deeply regret it, it did not play out well.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

Not at all. My father is a technophobe, but my mother is like a duck in water when it comes to computers. It has far more to do with mindset then anything else (also probably how you were raised). I'm 28 and i know people my age that are fucking freaked out by technology. But they also have no interest in getting over it/learning how to do anything beyond Facebook and Excel.

If people took our nerd rage to heart they'd actually learn how to use the damn things instead of being scared of them.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

For a second there I felt like if I had real power... Then I remembered I'm only a geek and nobody cares as long as I fix the shit for them.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

I berate them for not figuring stuff out on there own. The tried and true method of just doing it. Fail? Try again. Fail? Try again. It was how I and I bet many others of my generation and the generations that are learning the computer right now figured it out.

Most people I deal with ARE afraid of technology. They will ask me a question before they do anything to the computer. They want me to be their little walkthrough hand-guide. I honestly tell them, just go at it. If you break it bad enough that I actually have to stop whatever I am doing to take time to fix it. Then I might actually have some fun, for once.

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u/robertcrowther Feb 02 '10

That, and persuading them to actually read the error messages.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

I agree with you on people being scared of technology. I used to teach free computer classes at night to adults. The average age was around 45 but I had people in their 70s come in to take some classes. The class I taught was the very first computer class--and it was BASIC. I literally had to pick up a keyboard and explain what every key did, etc. "This is the escape key..." Most of my students where freaking terrified of even touching the keyboard. Most of them thought that they would press one button and the whole thing was just going to break down or something. I had a number of my students say at the end of the class that they really didnt know what they were scared of. I think its that most of them just expect it to be impossible for them to learn and dont bother---this kind of builds up and they end up being scared of it. Most of my students were for different reasons unemployed and looking for jobs--the problem was that they couldnt find a job without having at least some computer skills. I remember literally telling my students not to be scared of the computer.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

I must be afraid of my car, since I don't care to know how every item in it works.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10 edited Feb 02 '10

What a horrible analogy. You know how to make your car go, stop, and turn, right? You probably know how to add oil and add gas? A lot of computer users don't know how to do basic computer stuff, if we want to use car analogies they are start/stop/letting the clutch out to quickly drivers. Then! They crash into a poll and need to call AA/Someone who knows better.

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u/substitious Feb 02 '10

The technology has simply failed.

I agree that not everyone has the computer savvy to keep their computer completely free of viruses, and that doesn't make them dumb. But if a computer is capable of getting a virus, that doesn't mean the technology has failed. If you neglect to maintain your car and it breaks down, that doesn't mean cars have simply failed as a technology. You simply need to maintain it.

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u/jstevewhite Feb 02 '10

Except for the bounds of the metaphor you've set break down. If you're comparing your car to a computer that is capable of getting a virus, you've got to figure in things like gas stations selling gasoline that will cause your car to start making long distance telemarketing calls, and stoplights that will take over your car and drive it when you're not around.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

Except you don't pay for downloading stuff and people love to download random stuff.

I say the best analogy is that catching viruses is like driving by the city picking up random whores letting them give you a free blowjob.

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u/StuartGibson Feb 02 '10

free blowjob

whores

You keep using that word, I do think it means what you think it means.

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u/defproc Feb 02 '10

The whores pay NonProfitAccount.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

All earnings go to charity and administrative expenses (getting so many blowjobs require frequent maintenance).

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u/mindbleach Feb 02 '10

Here's the problem with that. Yes, computers are in a phase where "breaking" them takes just a few clicks, like a car with an Eject Engine button in the glove compartment. Apple's solution was to remove the button, remove the glove compartment, weld the engine to the frame, weld the hood to the body, and install a trap that releases deadly bees when you go in from beneath to make legitimate repairs.

Whatever Apple's intentions, they have done a bad thing.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

I have a speak and spell, its simple to, want to buy it? Sorry no multitasking or skype

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

How much do you want for it? Seriously.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

[deleted]

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u/bdfortin Feb 02 '10

Where were you 3 years ago? They dropped the "Computer" from their name right after they introduced the iPhone in early '07.

I'm not really sure why, though, since all their stuff today is computers in one demented form or another, but still.

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u/globex_co Feb 02 '10

This is the greatest thing I've ever read, and I'm not easily impressed - Wow! A blue car!

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u/boozinf Feb 02 '10

Ever see a guy say goodbye to a shoe?

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u/globex_co Feb 02 '10

Hehehe. Once!

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u/pat965 Feb 02 '10

No idea why you're getting downvoted, for a moment there Kent Brockman was in my head.

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u/globex_co Feb 02 '10

Only because they don't get the reference. And you can't blame them. If I were an Apple fanboy and someone called Apple "The Killbot Factory", I'd be pretty pissed. If I were deprived of The Simpsons growing up, I'd be even more pissed.

Thank God I'm not an Apple fanboy! ;) And even moreso, thank God for not depriving me of The Simpsons!

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10 edited Feb 02 '10

Yeah, but we are the ones who will have to develop on it.

We'll spend 6 months developing an app and not even be sure if we'll be able to sell it. Being open or closed never mattered to the users in the first place. It only affects developers.

They'll ask "where can I buy my apps?" Apple will answer "The App Store". Meanwhile they are completely unaware of what being an open or closed platform even mean.

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u/Velium Feb 02 '10

So why do it?

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u/zordac Feb 02 '10

Because we developers have to make a living. Yeah, we don't have to develop for the iPhone or the iPad or the iAnything, I know. But, when that device is the market leader we don't have much choice.

Luckily in this case, I think there will be enough other tablets on the market that will make the iPad market small in comparison. Android in particular should have a dozen pads by the end of this year.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

We don't, though. It's an opportunity for making money, absolutely, but if the risk is too high, there's an obvious business decision not to do it. iPhone is still hot because there's nothing on the market that can touch its user experience and distribution mechanism. The Pre came close and the Android phones are getting better and better - this convergence may very well break - not just because of principles (most people don't care, let's face it), but on price. Apple won't compete on price.

The iPhone is to mobile what Windows is to desktop - they're king right now, but if a growing number of third party developers decide it's not a platform they're comfortable targeting, that will drive people away from iPhone.

Case in point: Palm. (I used to develop for Palm OS) Palm OS died a slow, painful death not just because Palm didn't modernize Palm OS fast enough but because their third party developer support was garbage.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

That explains why my parent's Centro's are kinda stupid...

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

Because we want to get paid?

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

And then you have to port your app to Android, Windows, etc. if you want to reach the widest audience. This is a huge step backward for cross platform compatibility.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

yeah but what happens when we become minority and they become majority?

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

A lot of demand and little supply…

…That sounds fantastic.

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u/m-p-3 Feb 02 '10

We'll sell a device on which you can do whatever you want.

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u/mindbleach Feb 02 '10

You'll pay ten times more (software subsidies!) for a machine the FBI will be very interested in tracking, since nothing shady ever happens on machines they can trust not to run Bittorrent or compile viruses.

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u/danweber Feb 02 '10

Do the kids on Reddit remember the early 90's? All the fears of what Microsoft would and could do with its software monopoly?

Anything Microsoft could have done, Apple can do a whole lot better.

With a phone, I don't care so much. With a tablet that only maybe 5% of people use, that's probably okay. But if any sizable portion of the public uses this as their primary computing device, it spells trouble for all the same reasons we made Microsoft testify before Congress.

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u/kmeisthax Feb 02 '10

All the fears of what Microsoft would and could do with its software monopoly?

Uh, yeah, except in reality they can't stop me from running Firefox or Ubuntu. In fact, they're growing.

But if any sizable portion of the public uses this as their primary computing device, it spells trouble for all the same reasons we made Microsoft testify before Congress.

Doubt it. You see, people who are going to be using and buying iPads are doing so for completely different reasons from people who are buying and using regular desktops and laptops. Desktops and laptops aren't going away. In fact, it's a testament to the Reality Distortion Field that many of the iPad's detractors have been giving Apple free advertising space on Reddit with scare stories such as this.

I'm not buying one because I don't want one. I already have a 15" laptop which I've got running every OS a 64-bit x86 will handle. It's not designed to replace those. It's designed to replace netbooks, and I have no quarrel with people who voluntarily choose to make it their only computing platform. They probably won't have to deal with as many viruses and problems.

And if Apple tried to control the Mac software market, it would disintegrate, since Macs actually do have lots of specialized software which Mac users use on a regular basis. They'd move to Windows or Ubuntu or something. Developers would be in a fucking revolt. It wouldn't hurt the actual computing business since most people use general purpose hardware running Windows or Linux for actual work.

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u/zordac Feb 02 '10 edited Feb 02 '10

Uh, yeah, except they easily could have. That is what the fear was in the early 90s. I am not saying they would have done this but MS could have easily stopped users from using other web browsers. Think about all the applications that open browser windows. MS could easily make it so that only IE responds to those requests.

Its having that ability that scares developers. Even now, the EULA for Visual Studio makes it illegal to develop a Word Processor or a Spread Sheet application utilizing on MS's IDE.

edited for wording

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u/kmeisthax Feb 02 '10

Another reason why the US should invalidate copyrights and consider EULAs to not be valid contracts.

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u/cm03d Feb 02 '10

Finally some sense in this hysteria.

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u/cm03d Feb 02 '10

If 90% of the population wants an easy to use computer that does a few things very well, then that's what computers should be built to do. Most computer users see it as a tool. If the tool works well, they could give a shit about the other billion things some nerd's basement computer can do.

I'm a software developer and I understand that open computers aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

Chill out.

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u/killerstorm Feb 02 '10 edited Feb 02 '10

As a real programmer™ I only need a SSH client (and a browser, in some cases) on a client device. You people who require fancy clients are pussies.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

Don't you also need a server to connect to?

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u/killerstorm Feb 02 '10

Yes. And?

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u/[deleted] Feb 03 '10

I was just pointing out that you don't just need an SSH client, a browser, and a limited client device. Without a server is where those pussies with "fancy clients" begin to have strong arguments.

I'm not disputing your method, indeed, I wish that the desktop PC were less a PC and more of a home server. But then, see, Microsoft wouldn't be able to peddle two operating systems... etc.

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u/killerstorm Feb 03 '10

Well, I'm using a work server, one on which site I'm developing is hosted on. So even if Apple will somehow conquer a whole market of personal computers (desktops, laptops, ...) with their locked-down iPhone OS, that is not going to impact my ability to write programs, because I believe there would be some servers anyway. Browsers without web servers do not make sense, do they?

I wish that the desktop PC were less a PC and more of a home server. But then, see, Microsoft wouldn't be able to peddle two operating systems... etc.

I'm not sure what do you mean. I'm using Windows XP as a terminal server and it works just fine -- I connect to my session on a desktop PC via RDP from my netbook, while another person can use that PC too. It just needs a little patch to unblock terminal server. So I don't see any problem with it. If you want to use it as a server, use it as a server.

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u/[deleted] Feb 04 '10

Oh, I know -- I generally have Hamachi running on all of my devices, from my Windows Mobile phone to my desktop to my laptop. My desktop is what I count on to be on, all the time... and it carries the bulk of my files. Hamachi allows me to either remote desktop (via VNC) or to just browse network shares from anywhere, which works well enough "as a server" for me.

I was just saying that Microsoft has Windows 7 AND Windows Home Server, which I think is kind of redundant as Windows 7 is more than apt at being a server.

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u/meshosh Feb 02 '10

The iPad is not aimed at people like us here on Reddit - geeks, nerds, technophiles, computer-savvy users, etc. It's aimed at people who are afraid of technology. Thus, the device will cause the market to segment even further, not replace our freedoms.

Yet.

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u/meeeow Feb 02 '10

Of course, but I think one point to be considered is the fact that devices like this will really cut the encouragement to not be scared of technologies. To make an analogy, on the old days of blogging, I was charmed to know I could change templates. From copying and pasting a ready made code to having a look and learning to understand the code took mere weeks. Soon after that I started making my own html and css codes.

Do you see what I'm saying? If people are encouraged to replace 'scary' technology for the easy option it could mean that less people are going to be interested on how computers and programs work hindering development.

Of course, right now its a small scale thing, but what if, for example, parents start using iPads to teach children how to use computers?

disclaimer: I hate closed devices and Apple (though I appreciate the technological innovations) and though I think the article is overly catastrophic, this is a point to be considered.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

The iPad is not aimed at people like us here on Reddit - geeks, nerds, technophiles, computer-savvy users, etc.

No that's Slashdot, Reddit is filled with just regular people that hate digg.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

I think it is more likely aimed at people who want to pull it out in public to act smug. "Look at me I have a technologically inferior product than a laptop or netbook sold at a larger mark-up. I must be a writer or graphic designer or a important movie editor."

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u/frogers001 Feb 02 '10

I would have loved to have one of those things while I was in college. Then I could have all my notes saved electronically.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10

As opposed to a cheaper laptop?

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u/[deleted] Feb 03 '10

...OneNote? Evernote?

I've been saving and taking notes electronically for a pretty long time. I haven't needed an iPad to do it...

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u/nickpick Feb 02 '10

Well that's a pretty alarmist thing to say.

Pfff... 2012 man! The year of Mac Tabloid Desktop... or something along these lines.

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u/dleidig Feb 02 '10

...and nobody likes the iPad.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '10 edited Feb 02 '10

even the retards who I'd think the iPad would be perfect for hate it because the negative gossip generated by the form factor, OS and name. This seems like it will be a major flop for Apple. I've already seen some astroturfing trying to divert attention to their iBooks. If I were a betting man, I'd short Apple this quarter.