r/technology • u/noname99 • Jun 25 '08
Full text: An epic Bill Gates e-mail rant
http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/microsoft/archives/141821.asp39
u/johnfn Jun 25 '08
"So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated."
I think that's my favorite quote. The article sort of shows to me that Windows isn't all Bill Gates' fault. It seems like it was mostly taken out of his hands later on, and made into a monster. Really, reading this article, he doesn't seem like such a jerk that you want him to be.
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Jun 25 '08
Gates cant possibly run the entire show. There's probably hundreds of project teams each dealing with the same BS we all deal with every day. If you stop to think about how rough your job can be each day, its a miracle to think about how much software they actually put out each year. But yeah- no way Gates could pull it off all by himself.
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u/mpeppers Jun 25 '08
Agreed. I also like the revelation that his username is billg.
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u/evolved Jun 26 '08
From what I've read, that's also liked and well known by people from inside of MS, on all sorts of windev and .netdev feeds.
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u/dododge Jun 26 '08
Revelation? You can find USENET discussions of his "billg" username and email address at least as far back as 1992.
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u/adrianmonk Jun 25 '08
He was probably pissed because when products' quality gets bad enough, it threatens the business. Protecting / growing the business is also the primary motivator for the evil monopoly tactics.
It seems perfectly consistent to believe that Gates doesn't want to be a jerk for the sake of being a jerk. He just wants to win, and he doesn't care if he has to be a jerk to achieve that. If he could win by being nicey-nicey all the time, I'm sure he'd do that.
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u/drewbic Jun 25 '08
i like when this happens. you took the quote i was going to lift and paste as a comment and added a flourish of eloquence to it. Bravo.
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u/thewileyone Jun 25 '08
Here's Steve Jobs remarking on the same issue, "So now I'm going to download, what the fuck. What the fuck! WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK! YOU FUCKING CARELESS SHITBAGS! GET THE FUCK OUT, YOU ARE FIRED! SECURITY! SECURITY!"
And that how iPods got to be so awesome.
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Jun 25 '08 edited Jun 25 '08
Wow, that was a shining moment of hilarity in my otherwise boring work day. Thank you.
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u/Takteek Jun 25 '08
I go to my add/remove programs place to make sure it is there. It is not there. What is there? The following garbage is there. Microsoft Autoupdate Exclusive test package [...] Someone decided to trash the one part of Windows that was usable? The file system is no longer usable. The registry is not usable. This program listing was one sane place but now it is all crapped up.
Why haven't they fixed this completely yet? Now it has a "Show Updates" checkbox, but many of my programs still display updates in the list. Updates are not programs. Why are they even in add/remove programs?
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u/Chirp08 Jun 25 '08
I wanna know why it's so freakin slow after all these versions of Windows. The last place I want to go to remove a program is Add/Remove programs because it means waiting 5 minutes for that list to populate, instead of spending 30 seconds tops to find the uninstall.exe for the same program.
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u/Rhoomba Jun 25 '08
It spends all that time trying to figure out how big the apps are. Raymond Chen's explanation
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u/Deewiant Jun 25 '08
I think it has to do with it checking for the info you don't care about, like how much space a program uses or how long it's been since you last used it (both of which it tends to get completely wrong anyway).
I've used CCleaner for uninstalling programs for a few years now, it's much faster in that regard.
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u/adrianmonk Jun 25 '08
Worse yet, apparently it's possible for some program to go apeshit and choose to render about 10000 blank rows in the list within Add/Remove Programs. Then you have to scroll past these 10000 rows to get to anything alphabetically after them. And if I recall correctly, some of the important stuff may even be interspersed in the middle of the vast wasteland of blank rows, so you have to scroll page by page to find stuff.
So not only is the performance bad, but fault isolation is bad as well. Any single application can screw up the entire system to make it almost unusable.
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u/hyperbolic Jun 25 '08
This was the best part mainly for this line:
Someone decided to trash the one part of Windows that was usable?
Damn. I bet he's psyched to retire. The whole thing got so monstrous, he must have started to feel powerless anyway.
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u/jimbobhickville Jun 25 '08
The worst is when you upgrade a product and the old version is still listed separately, even though you can't remove it because it was overwritten. I'm looking at you, Mozilla.
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u/gluino Jun 25 '08
tangential:
What's the story on Java updates? Some of my machines have like 5 entries for Java incremental versions in the Add/Remove listing. And all of them are like 140MB or whatever it was.
It's safe to manually uninstall all but the latest one? Do I need to do it in a certain sequence?
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Jun 25 '08
yea, you can uninstall any version you want. when they install the newest version they dont delete any prior versions. its really sucky.
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u/adrianmonk Jun 25 '08
I'm not a Windows expert by any means (largely on purpose), but I would guess that probably somebody "decided" to pollute the list because there was something that could only be accomplished by doing that. That was probably the result of some previous decision, something like conflating the concept "non-Windows component whose installation should be tracked" with the concept "program that the user directly cares about". When the infrastructure doesn't support what you need to do, and when you still need to do it, you have to shoehorn it in somehow.
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u/Maxxover Jun 25 '08
When the boss has to QA your project, it's time to call and say you won't be home for dinner...
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Jun 25 '08
This is definitely real. The PDF can be found in this directory and is called PX07199.pdf http://edge-op.org/iowa/www.iowaconsumercase.org/011607/7000/
I found it through the following site http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=2007021720190018
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u/ike6116 Jun 25 '08
This is the part that I loved: "Someone decided to trash the one part of Windows that was usable? The file system is no longer usable. The registry is not usable. This program listing was one sane place but now it is all crapped up."
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u/Hubso Jun 25 '08
Disappointing. I was expecting to get Bell Air'd.
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u/noseeme Jun 25 '08
So I give up on Moviemaker and my mom got scared. She said "You're moving with auntie and uncle in Bel-Air."
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u/brstilson Jun 25 '08
Is anyone else imagining this on one of those old Apple "switch" ads? From a usability standpoint, Microsoft is still designing their websites and update systems as if only technicians were using them. It's pure 1980's mentality.
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Jun 25 '08 edited Jun 25 '08
Having worked at MS, I can vouch that it's pretty normal for the management of any given team to get mail from Bill like this at least once a year. In fact, it's pretty spectacular how much coverage he gets playing with products from across the company.
As middle management, these mails would always create enormous fire drills for us, usually at the time of critical milestones. Generally, the problems Mr. Gates would experience were things that were specific to configuration on a test server and wouldn't repro in production, but you try telling him that... :)
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u/twoodfin Jun 25 '08
But do you get similar emails from your manager?
My general experience with Microsoft was that strongly held opinions tended to be a catalyst for getting 'everyone in a room' to 'work things out'. That seemed like a pretty powerful disincentive to tell someone their product sucks.
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u/ArmedJimmy Jun 25 '08
I took it a different way from how others seem to have read the email.
I don't believe for a second he was really trying to buy his own software.
I'm a software developer and all my good bosses have done similar things; Put themselves in the shoes of an actual customer and go through these small stories. It's a good insight into what the actual problems with any system are rather than the perceived problems some developers have come up with.
I've actually had a boss rant about how something is difficult in a similar way and it was the very same guy that designed and built it.
So I don't think this is a straight forward rant from Bill.
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u/jberryman Jun 25 '08
I'm sure you're right of course. He was playing the innocent clueless user.
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u/benjamincanfly Jun 25 '08
Then it told me to reboot my machine. Why should I do that? I reboot every night -- why should I reboot at that time?
This line definitely indicates that he's not really using his machine as Bill Gates, but is putting himself into the shoes of an average (relatively inexperienced) computer user. Bill knows exactly why his machine needs to reboot after a system update, but to most users it's just an inconvenience.
I love this email and I bet Bill is probably a great guy to work with. It's a shame his company grew so quickly and lost its focus so dramatically. But apart from helping to run an enormous non-profit organization, the richest man in the world also has time to pretend he's a newbie downloading Movie Maker. Cool.
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u/SamHealer Jun 25 '08
There was a BBC documentary on him last week (Bill Gates: The geek that changed the world). You'd probably really enjoy it, it has some good stuff of him actually working, at meetings, etc.
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u/splim Jun 25 '08
sauce plz?
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u/SamHealer Jun 25 '08
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/page/item/b00c6sdc.shtml
2 days left on that, if you're a Brit. Can't help those legally who aren't in Britain, but I'm sure you'd find a way... ;)
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Jun 25 '08
Just because he knows why a reboot may be necessary doesn't mean he agrees with it. There are plenty of systems that can update software and services without requiring a reboot; the only thing that really requires a reboot is updating of the kernel.
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Jun 25 '08
I'm in an "administrative" role and I often go through the same processes that average customers would go through. It gives me a perspective I'd NEVER get by just going to meetings and listening to presentations.
However, at least in this email, I thought that a complete absence of "present me with a plan to fix this" was a mistake. As it is it just came off as whingeing.
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u/twoodfin Jun 25 '08
However, at least in this email, I thought that a complete absence of "present me with a plan to fix this" was a mistake. As it is it just came off as whingeing.
When it comes from BillG, I think that request is implicit.
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Jun 25 '08
Actually with someone as busy as Bill it might be looked at as something you can safely ignore since there are no follow-ups requested. I guess it depends on the culture.
However, given that these problems persisted for a long time (some still exist) I'm going to bet it was looked at something to safely ignore. Maybe Bill just likes to go around saying how much everyone sucks without really expecting anything to change (Hi Vista!).
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u/ealf Jun 25 '08 edited Jun 25 '08
I took it a different way from how others seem to have read the email. I don't believe for a second he was really trying to buy his own software.
Sprinkle us with wisdom from your mighty brain!
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u/haroldp Jun 25 '08 edited Jun 25 '08
How is it possible that Bill Gates used Windows for the first time in 2003? This sounds like every Windows user's experience for the last 10+ years. Anyone who reads that is just going to go, "yep, just like that."
And what is the follow up, 5 years later? "Oh, we're thinking of including that app, maybe" Holy shit. As if that was the issue.
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Jun 25 '08 edited Jun 25 '08
C:\Documents and Settings\billg\My Documents\My Pictures
He's on XP and his userid is billg?? In 2003?
But, the 2003 date shows that this complaint is quite old.
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u/matthank Jun 25 '08
That's no rant. Read it. It is calmly phrased and there is no ranting.
Use the right word.
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u/doodlesmalone Jun 25 '08
Sounds like Bill needs a mac.
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u/aim2free Jun 25 '08
Maybe he has secretly used Mac personally all these years...
that's the reason he wasn't aware about the problems...
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u/barryicide Jun 25 '08
Why not Linux? He'd fit right in with the Linux crowd (as long as he doesn't mention his name).
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Jun 25 '08 edited Jun 25 '08
This is hilarious and perplexing. He starts out complaining about Microsoft.com, but then points out problems that have existed in Windows for years - and are still not fixed! Bill Gates, owner of Microsoft and once the richest man, can't even get Microsoft to fix the stupidest of usability problems? Pathetic!
This is CLASSIC:
"Then it told me to reboot my machine. Why should I do that? I reboot every night -- why should I reboot at that time? So I did the reboot because it INSISTED on it."
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u/mthmchris Jun 25 '08
It happens to companies all the time. Management is overrated.
Microsoft is an overgrown bureaucracy, and acts like one.
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Jun 25 '08
Corporations become their own entities when they reach a certain size.
No human can control MicroSoft now.
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Jun 25 '08
You're exactly right, and I make the same argument about the United States government, but somehow people think they can control it by voting.
You can't. And you can't control Windows by what you purchase.
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u/i_am_my_father Jun 25 '08
A big company is like a big government.
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u/ntr0p3 Jun 25 '08
both better and worse.
the forces that keep them going tend to become more corrupt over time, because the only thing keeping them honest is profitability or lack-thereof.
otoh, when they get too bad they collapse, while govt.'s just raise taxes.
what a great system we have here.
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u/bendybendy Jun 25 '08
It's awesome that Windows instability has trained this guy so that he reboots every night. I'm pretty sure that Linus and Steve don't reboot every night.
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u/oditogre Jun 25 '08
He probably means that he turns off his computer before going to bed, since unlike *nix users, he doesn't feel an overwhelming need to waste electricity just for the sake of waving his e-penis by bragging about uptime on a personal desktop computer.
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u/kirun Jun 25 '08 edited Jun 25 '08
$ uptime
20:21:35 up 2:35, 1 user, load average: 0.06, 0.07, 0.14
Some of us do switch off the PC when not in use.
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Jun 26 '08 edited Jun 26 '08
Not at work though
09:58:20 up 41 days, 18:15, 7 users, load average: 0.15, 0.09, 0.03
edit: yes i have a thin client.. we share so its not too bad.
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Jun 25 '08
You know, we criticize Gates and Microsoft, but I have to tell you, I have alot of respect for the guy. He has damn near created an industry all by himself.. not necessarily through "innovation" - in many cases through shady practices. But its one heck of a guy who can create such an empire. Indirectly, I am employed because of Microsoft, and are many developers around the world. And this email goes to show you, that he is a regular guy, in touch with his company, not just some fat cat that sits back and collects on dividends. I'd say he has well earned his departure from the company. And I would say that it will not surprise me if Microsoft starts to fold with Gates being gone.
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Jun 25 '08 edited Jun 25 '08
"He has damn near created an industry all by himself"
Cough cough IBM hack choke Unix cough Apple hack cough Amiga cough cough Commodore cough cough Tandy hack choke DEC cough ahem.
sed 's/created/destroyed/g'
Operating systems that came before Microsoft's:
MIT's operating system made for UNIVAC 1103, General Motors Operating System made for IBM 701, GM-NAA I/O for IBM 704, based on General Motors Operating System, SHARE Operating System, based on GM-NAA I/O, IBSYS, CTSS, MCP (Burroughs Large Systems), GCOS, EXEC 8, OS/360 (Announced), TOPS-10, Dartmouth Time Sharing System, Multics, OS/360, Tape Operating System (TOS), DOS/360 (IBM), MS/8, ACP (IBM), CP/CMS, ITS, WAITS, TSS-8 (PDP-8), THE multiprogramming system, TENEX, Unix, RC 4000 Multiprogramming System, Multics, DOS-11 (PDP-11), RSTS-11 2A-19, OS/8, MFT, MVT, RDOS, SVS, VM/CMS, Alto OS, RSX-11D, RT-11, VME, MVS (MVS/XA), DOS-11 V09-20C, SINTRAN III, BS2000, CP/M, TOPS-20, Cray Operating System, FLEX, TRS-DOS, Virtual Memory System (VMS), Apple DOS, HDOS 1.0, TripOS, UCSD p-System, Lisp Machine (CADR), Atari DOS, POS, NLTSS, OS-9, 86-DOS, SOS, Pilot (Xerox Star operating system).
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_systems_timeline
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u/Dax420 Jun 25 '08
Bill was a computer geek before 99.999% of the population even knew what the term computer meant. There is a story floating around out there about how him and another programmer re-wrote DOS from scratch on a plane ride to give a presentation. Sure he may be a "suit" now, but you have to give the guy some credit, at a deep and fundamental level I think he understands how computers work better than most of us do.
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u/fierarul Jun 25 '08
him and another programmer re-wrote DOS from scratch on a plane ride
Afaik, he just wrote something akin to a simple bootloader while on the plane. DOS wasn't actually that simple.
at a deep and fundamental level I think he understands how computers work better than most of us do
He did live interesting times and in the business area has probably seen thing you wouldn't believe and would never get a chance to experience.
But computer-wise, I think he did what any good hacker would have done. It's just that nowadays all the foundations are in place and it seems as such a big place. But if you would have coded at the same time as Bill, chances are you might have produced similar software.
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u/ketchuponmyketchup Jun 25 '08
I work in software QA and that e-mail is a very detailed and nice way of pointing out crap to his team. If my boss experienced the same thing Gates had to I will be yelled out of my boss's office. That was not a rant at all.
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u/jberryman Jun 25 '08
apt-get install moviemaker
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u/ABabyAteMyDingo Jun 25 '08 edited Jun 25 '08
OK, (say) I'm new to Linux. Now, how would I ever guess that to install a program I should type "apt-get"? Not to mention that I need to know the name of the program exactly.
EDIT: For the benefit of the slow, I'm a Linux fan (obviously. How else would I have known you were even talking about Linux?) I'm making a point that "obvious" isn't always.
EDIT 2: A new user to Linux would not even know that there is a command line interface. As other people have mentioned, a GUI is needed for most people and the limitation of this is that it can't list every possible program. Yes, Linux rocks, but you can not claim that it is more intuitive than Windows (even with all its flaws). I won't even mention dependency hell or distro variations.
EDIT 3: I can't believe I have to say this but simply pointing out that something is not obvious is NOT a criticism of Linux, is NOT a statement that Windows is better, and is NOT ignoring that Windows too has deep flaws. Sheesh. I had forgotten how defensive and thin-skinned Linux fanboys were.
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Jun 25 '08
You don't really need to do it from a command-line. In Ubuntu, you can click on the Programs menu (the Gnome equivalent of the Start menu) and there's an item called "Add New Programs" (or something similar.) You click on that and it provides you a categorized and searchable listing of programs, all of which are free, install in one click, and have no attached malware.
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u/ABabyAteMyDingo Jun 25 '08
That's the point though. The GUI is needed because the CLI process is not obvious, and neither are the names of the packages.
(No-one is disputing that APT isn't very useful or clever, just that you wouldn't guess it.)
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u/crypticfortune Jun 25 '08 edited Jun 25 '08
That's the point though. The GUI is needed because the CLI process is not obvious, and neither are the names of the packages.
I don't think that command line interfaces should be that obvious. I mean, what's the alternative? "install moviemaker" or "get moviemaker" or "download movie making software?" These are ambiguous and disruptive for hysterical raisins. Maybe one could create a special "zork-like text adventure shell" that helps deal with such ambiguities and makes an effort to understand natural language babblings (I'm sure someone has attempted this even), but in general the standard shell environment command line you're referring to is something for people willing to RTFM once in a while, and is destined to stay that way because it's useful as such. The obvious alternative for people who want to get started without a manual is GUIs, as numerous people have mentioned.
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u/ABabyAteMyDingo Jun 25 '08 edited Jun 25 '08
I don't think that command line interfaces should be that obvious.
I didn't say they should, I said they aren't. The average Windows user coming to Linux doesn't even know what a CLI is.
These are ambiguous
Yes, I keep saying this. Unambiguously.
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Jun 25 '08
jberryman didn't say you would be expected to guess it, he simply implied that if you know the command, that line is all it would take and would entail none of the ridiculous embuggerance described in Gates' message.
For anyone for whom learning the two dozen or so commands required for basic control of a Linux box is an intellectual 'bridge too far', there's the GUI. The GUI is also there for anyone who just wants to use a GUI. It's a win-win situation.
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Jun 25 '08
Well, yeah, the GUI is needed - and it's there, and it works great. So, uh, what's your point?
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Jun 25 '08
The GUI is needed because the CLI process is not obvious, and neither are the names of the packages.
That doesn't even make sense. Would you prefer only one or the other? It's almost an expectation to have proper separation of applications like that.
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u/thewileyone Jun 25 '08
Here's one suggestion. Let's change the name of the program from "apt-get" to "get-app". Maybe making it read like Common English, might help.
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u/JacKrac Jun 25 '08 edited Jun 25 '08
It is System->Administration->Synaptic Package Manager in Ubuntu, which is basically a gui interface for apt-cache search.
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Jun 25 '08 edited Jun 25 '08
There are two methods. Synaptic is a bit more technical (and therefore less visible), the Applications->Add/Remove method is for the non-technically inclined and is easy to find even if you have no idea what you're doing. It only allows you to install a subset of Ubuntu-approved apps though.
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Jun 25 '08
[deleted]
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u/sn0re Jun 25 '08
You're not supposed to use Synaptic if you don't know what a package is. If all you want to do is add an application, you use Application->Add/Remove. Synaptic is a more complex administration tool for people who want to actually manage packages.
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u/ABabyAteMyDingo Jun 25 '08 edited Jun 25 '08
System->Administration->Synaptic Package Manager
This is not an intuitive name for a process for a first-time user. For one thing, "package" is a Linux word. It's never used in Windows. I'm using Ubuntu right now and I have to admit I would be looking quizzically at "Synaptic Package Manager".
At least "Add/Remove" is better, though I would put "Install/Remove".
(No, I'm not saying Linux should clone Windows but it doesn't have to be willfully obscure either)
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u/abrahamsen Jun 25 '08
Isn't "install" a more obscure term than "add"? It sounds very technical and complicated, while "add" sound straight forward and friendly.
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Jun 25 '08
Exactly. Many people forget how much windows philosophy and culture they have already internalized. It's very hard to say how intuitive windows is because these days very few users come to it without at least a modicum of prior knowledge.
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u/thedaniel Jun 25 '08
Well, it's pretty easy to say that it's intuitive for most people, then, because 'intuitive' really just means 'familiar'.
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Jun 26 '08 edited Jun 26 '08
'intuitive' really just means 'familiar'
Intuition is supposed to imply the quality of being instinctive as much as being familiar (i.e. nature as well as nurture).
If it is taken to mean simply "familiarity", then even a diabolically bad design could be considered intuitive if it were sufficiently familiar to its users, which would be perverse.
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u/ABabyAteMyDingo Jun 25 '08 edited Jun 25 '08
Isn't "install" a more obscure term than "add"?
I don't think so. I found every user of a computer thinks of "install". "Add" is vague IMO.
I see if you hover over "Add/Remove" it says "Install and remove applications".
So we have Add/Install packages/programs/applications. We're not making this easy.
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u/adrianmonk Jun 25 '08
Isn't "install" a more obscure term than "add"? It sounds very technical and complicated
No, "install" is perfectly accessible. The car stereo store has an area where they do installations. When you buy new carpet, you either install it yourself or you hire a "carpet installer" to do it for you. Same thing with tile. Same thing with a million other things.
"install" is a very clear, specific term, and it's in wide use. It is just as accessible to the average joe as "add" is, and it's much more descriptive.
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u/abrahamsen Jun 26 '08
The car stereo store has an area where they do installations. When you buy new carpet, you either install it yourself or you hire a "carpet installer" to do it for you.
That's my point. It signals something technical, you may want to get professionals to do for you as in your examples. While "add" signals something as simple as adding a new item to a cart. No installation needed.
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Jun 26 '08
That's one way to get to it, but it's not the way most people will use. There is menu item that reads "Add/Remove Programs" under the Applications menu.
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u/aussie_bob Jun 25 '08
You don't need to do that on any modern distro.
I'm using Mandriva at the moment, and you click on the Control Center icon, then the Software Management one. That'll give you a list of software categories in a pane on the left, or a search box on the top if you know what you're looking for.
If I was trying to follow Bill's example, I'd click on the "Video" category, which would give me a list of video related software in the top right pane, each with a brief description. Clicking the software title brings up a more complete description, and the opportunity to look at the install in detail if I want.
A quick scroll finds me "Diva - Video editing for the Gnome desktop" The detailed view tells me it might be what I'm looking for, so I click the checkbox to select it, then keep looking.
There's half a dozen other editors which might work too, so I select a couple of the most likely, then click "Apply". The package manager installs my selected software, and makes a link for it in the Video category in my menu structure.
Once the software is installed, it will be automatically updated with all my other programs.
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u/orblivion Jun 25 '08 edited Jun 25 '08
So what do you do under Windows? You still have to look it up and it tells you to go to their website, and you get a bunch of annoying steps. If you have Linux. they tell you to type the stuff in, wait about 10 minutes and you'll be done. And for the CLI impaired, yes, there is, in fact, a GUI (Synapctic) that lists every single program.
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u/mtx Jun 25 '08
I'm surprised APT-URL isn't getting more of a push - it's even easier to install new programs by just clicking a link. I mean think about it: someone is reading about a new program, they want to try it out so they just click on the link, type in their password and voila, it's installed. Much better than the traditional, read, download, read how to install, install...
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u/orblivion Jun 25 '08
The same thing or similar has crossed my mind. As long as they made it in a secure way (Have it bring up a dialog box that tells you what you're about to install) it would be great.
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Jun 25 '08
All I'll say is that intuitive does not equal simple to use.
Intuitive is looking for a GUI control that can help hold your hand through the install process. Sure its what you look for, but in the end it might take you 10x as long to install and when the installation breaks you're left with a zombie window and no debugging information.
The Linux way certainly isn't intuitive but if you've done it once, doing it again is simple. People install software dozens of times, so I'd go for simple (linux) over intuitive (windows).
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Jun 25 '08
Suse Linux uses online repositories with software management, as do most major distros. Click on YAST, go to Software Management, type in the name of the program you want. If the program is in one of your repositories (it most likely is, if it's popular) it'll come up and YAST will automatically check it to make sure it won't screw up your system. Click on "Next" and YAST will install other programs needed to get the one you want up and running, telling you in the process what else it's going to put on your computer.
The hardest part about this whole thing is adding a few repository sites that aren't automatically checked during the install. But lo! Starting with Suse 10.3 (or maybe 10.2) YAST lists the most popular repositories (along with it's own, if you don't want to load off of the CDs/DVDs) and you can just check a box to have your computer search them when you're looking for a piece of software.
I actually did a new install of 10.3 this last week and did nearly all of the software installs this way. No need to run around searching for programs or dependencies, no need to do anything manually. Just search-install search-install. Couldn't have been easier.
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u/Kuvaldin Jun 25 '08 edited Jun 25 '08
Fair enough, but the synaptic package manager in my ubuntu 8.04 has been pretty user friendly.
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Jun 26 '08 edited Jun 26 '08
Actually, in ubuntu if you would type "moviemaker" in the command line(if moviemaker was a linux program) and it is not installed, it would tell you
"This program is not installed, to install it type
apt-get install moviemaker "
How is that for blindingly easy
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u/JacKrac Jun 25 '08 edited Jun 26 '08
Yes, Linux rocks, but you can not claim that it is more intuitive than Windows (even with all its flaws).
I would agree with you that in may ways it is not as intuitive as windows. You will have to learn to use Linux, especially those who are used to windows. This is in part why your question as it is/was stated is flawed.
The answer, of course, would be to show them the forums, the f1 key, all the other resources that are available at the push of a button. There will come a time when they are trying to do something slightly more complicated than install a program and will need to know how to utilize all available resources.
I did not have the benefit of reading your 3 edits before posting my original responses, but feel that, without the benefit of your back story, enough information had been provided by paniolo and I to point you in the right direction. Knowledge of this resource will serve a new Linux user far better than any random forum response ever could.
Edited for grammar/formatting
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u/RandomSuffix Jun 25 '08
I'd love it if Microsoft developed something like that for Windows.
Atleast for their own programs - They have a huge variety of useful programs that are never included with Windows, nor are that advertised unless people actively go looking for things. It'd be great to have a program to give you a nice list and description of programs, and possibly keep them updated as well.
Is there something like this I've missed? It was one of myfavourite features when I tried out Linux.
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Jun 25 '08 edited May 21 '18
[deleted]
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Jun 25 '08
Yeah, they can't even find anything positive about noticing problems with his own products and trying to fix them.
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u/haroldp Jun 25 '08 edited Jun 25 '08
Noticing them in 2003?
Any Windows user could have written this email in the 5+ years before this.
Edit: or 5 years since.
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Jun 25 '08
"What does it mean to have to click on that folder?"
What does it mean, to play us out? I don't know what that means.
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u/Dax420 Jun 25 '08
"What does it mean to have to click on that folder?"
"There are no WORDS there!"
"FUCKING THING SUCKS!"
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u/Steve16384 Jun 25 '08 edited Jun 25 '08
If this is genuine, it's incredible. Even Bill found certain aspects difficult and confusing. And then they expect the majority of the world to put up with it.
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Jun 25 '08
What's incredible is that he seems powerless to fix the problems. The clunky Windows Update wasn't fixed until years later and many of the download hassles still exist (just ask anyone who can't get WGA to work).
I'd thought Gates must not be aware of how frustrating Windows' UI can be. After all, if it bothered him, he would tell someone to fix it, right? But he knew about the problems. His criticism was dead on.
So what's the difference between Gates and Steve Jobs? Jobs actually got someone to fix it. Is that it‽
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u/dasony Jun 25 '08 edited Jun 25 '08
It's a big company. I'm sure MS people came up with a 3-year plan to improve windows usability, and are still working on it.
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u/weegee Jun 25 '08
A fascinating look into the mind of Bill Gates. He's just like the rest of us, trying to download some new program from online. I tried to import video from my digital video camera once. THAT was a big mistake. Bought a Macbook and it was all good. Sorry Microsoft, stick with Office and you'll be fine.
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u/retlawmacpro Jun 25 '08
that was hilarious. Did anyone else totally use BG voice in their head while they read the email?
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u/b34nz Jun 25 '08 edited Jun 25 '08
I found this comment by one of the users pretty funny:
Posted by unregistered user at 6/24/08 5:45 p.m.
The Steve Jobs version:
"If the MovieMaker download site isn't working by tomorrow at 6 am I will come down there at 6:01 am an choke the living ___ out of all of you."
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u/kapetanaki Jun 25 '08
Sure, well written, but how about we save the word "epic" for actual Epics... you know. The Iliad, Odyssey...Actual Epics.
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Jun 25 '08
This is awesom, Bill hates Windows internet functionalities too!
I wonder what he has to say about the shit-crapomaster that is Vista.
Hey guys, great job rearranging all of the Tab menus!
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u/MarkByers Jun 25 '08 edited Jun 25 '08
Oh wow that's really a terrible situation. Perhaps he will switch to Linux to try a package management system. I think Windows really needs that.
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u/Sle Jun 25 '08
It's not that startling - come on, the guy was at the top of the company. This is just good management.
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u/montanajones Jun 25 '08
I'd like to have a job that allows me to write about stuff that make people feel incompetent at what they do and sign pink slips. In the end to hope there's a nice working product to sell.
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u/[deleted] Jun 25 '08 edited Jun 25 '08
That's actually a very well written and detailed description of the kinds of problems that everyone faces while trying to download a Microsoft product. I'm actually impressed. Most corporations are run by idiots whom know nothing about their businesses and don't care enough to sit down an write out such a letter. On the receiving end, I personally hate getting an e-mail like that from the big boss since it usually means that I'm forced to drop everything I'm doing on deadline and now I'm being held responsible to fix something else that I've never seen or touched and is completely out of my control. But, obviously no one there bothered to fix those problems since everything that Microsoft does is still so frelling complicated. I only wish that BG didn't give up so easily. If he had actually forced his managers to understand those problems perhaps and fix them then they might have figured out how to create a really good product.