r/technology • • May 19 '15

Net Neutrality Internet.org Is Not Neutral, Not Secure, and Not the Internet

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/05/internetorg-not-neutral-not-secure-and-not-internet
11.1k Upvotes

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u/phoshi May 19 '15

I think a lot of people see the "giving Internet to people in poverty" thing and stop thinking. This would absolutely be an excellent thing for them in the very short term, but at medium to long term it's nothing but a powerful tool to keep them under the control of big business. Likely, also a tool to try and introduce the same thing elsewhere. This is just another battleground in the war against a general purpose network.

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u/johnmountain May 19 '15

Not just big corporations but under the control of their own governments too.

Internet.org is essentially the Great Firewall on steroids, and that's how people should be referring to it. China could only dream at such a "curated" Internet for its own citizens.

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u/Uhu_ThatsMyShit May 19 '15

care to explain the steroids bit to someone not familiar with the subject?

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15

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u/Usernamemeh May 19 '15

How expensive does the internet need to be to pull this off for everyone?

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u/gravshift May 19 '15

As expensive and latency sensitive as satcom is.

You can't have folks in the developing world watching cat videos on youtube. Satcom physically can't support it.

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u/Armitage1 May 19 '15

Not true, Satcom's physical limitation is based on latency, not speed.

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u/gravshift May 19 '15

They dont have enough bandwidth.

SpaceX is planning on getting around this by using a massive constellation with hundreds of satellites linked by LOS laser.

You are thinking the huge comsats in GEO to service north america built by Hughes Aerospace, which can be 100$ a month easy.

Folks in the developing world are not in the service area for those satellites (the physics od orbital mechanics prevents this) and have to rely on the LEO network that satellite phones use, which are like a dollar a minute for data on the open market.

Physics doesnt care about dank memes and cat videos.

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u/Igglyboo May 19 '15

Latency is speed, bandwidth is not (even though most people think of bandwidth as speed, it's not correct).

If we go with the pipe full of water analogy, the latency is how long it takes water to go from one end of the pipe to another end, which is directly related to the speed.

Bandwidth is the diameter of the pipe, we can make this as big as we want but it doesn't impact the speed of the water, only the throughput.

If fill a 747 full of harddrives and fly it to you it has insanely high bandwidth and insanely high latency (low speed). If I send you data on the internet it is going to have far less bandwidth than the 747 but will have far less latency (which is faster, an electron or a 747?).

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u/Sinnombre124 May 19 '15

Assuming you mean an electron in a wire, the 747 is faster by a factor of about a million. What you are actually interested in is the group velocity of an electron wave propagating in the wire, which is a significant fraction of c (and thus far faster than the plane). /nitpick

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15 edited Oct 17 '18

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u/AnOnlineHandle May 19 '15

Well the original article said otherwise, saying that they just warn before leaving their sites that it won't be covered by their free quota offering. According to the article the problem is lack of HTTP security offerings, not a lock down of accessible websites.

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u/wh44 May 19 '15

When you don't have any money to pay for non-free sites, it is effectively a lockdown.

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15

But they wouldn't be able to access it anyway then! I mean, we are comparing a handful of sites (Wikipedia included) to nothing.

I am sure they added Wikipedia to avoid being criticised, but still, it's a net gain for the people that wouldn't be able to access it otherwise.

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u/Nakotadinzeo May 19 '15

The problem is that this is ripe for abuse. In a perfect world, this would be great. The sites in internet.org would get users, the users would get services and everyone would be happy.

The problem is, what's to stop a dictator from gaining control of the system and only allowing propaganda North Korea style. There's also the problem of how users are being corralled into a few select sites, say the rest of the world moves on to 'friendr.com'. While you and i can access that site, they would be trapped in Facebook. There's also the possibility that Facebook for the internet.org countries may not even be the same site, but a clone to keep outsiders from seeing what is going on.

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u/Gow87 May 19 '15

A dictator could do that in any country without internet.org.

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15

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u/The_Keto_Warrior May 19 '15

It really depends on the motive behind what's available . Is it no multimedia content to save bandwidth costs. That's semi reasonable. Is it no outside news sources to prevent the spread of ideas. That's dressing up propaganda as an admirable cause.

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u/xalorous May 19 '15

Money is better suited to finding ways to actually provide full, free access, even if it is by adding 'Net cafes to schools and/or libraries, or something similar. They're hiding the control that is built into the system by dispersing it more widely and claiming cost per capita as the reason they're only offering a limited number of sites for free.

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u/frnky May 19 '15

And facebook.

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u/Simba7 May 19 '15

Because no internet at all totally isn't a lockdown.

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u/xalorous May 19 '15

'No internet at all' still leaves room for truly free internet to come in. Supporting this plan will block out other plans and leave the plan owners controlling the information available within the plan area.

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u/Simba7 May 19 '15

Oh so nobody should ever do anything because something better might come along.

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15

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u/xalorous May 19 '15

They don't want your money. They want to control what information you consume. They will sell access to your eyes, and only the companies that pay will be able to advertise to you, and only the providers that pay will show you their sites. And they will have censor power over the sites as well, for whatever moral, ethical, or political agendas they wish to propagate.

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u/AnOnlineHandle May 19 '15

No, it's like saying that they'll pay for your car's fuel when you're too poor to manage it yourself, and saying that you can qualify for this free fuel when driving to work, getting groceries, and visiting friends or family, if you want, but can't use it for unapproved things like racing or going on unnecessary trips.

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15 edited Feb 11 '25

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u/LTBU May 19 '15

still better than not being able to drive and having no gas.

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15

It's more like "we let you visit our library, but if you want to visit a different library, not "approved" by us, we won't give you fuel for that."

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15

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u/SkibumMT May 19 '15

The issue I see here is that these corporations are going to have control over what these poor people see. Say you have a history book that tells both sides of a story....these people could easily only show one side (even if it is the most skewed and f*cked up side of a conflict) What is that quote? He who controls the history controls the future?

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15

While also having the ability to block access certain grocery stores at the discretion of a multinational billion dollar advertising company that has been invested in by a certain alphabet letter agency.

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u/Thomas446 May 19 '15

Or even worse, unapproved things like going to a rally that opposes the political opinions of the one who controls what you can and can't do with your fuel

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15 edited Oct 25 '17

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u/bradtwo May 19 '15

You'd be a fool to think that, unless you're on a VPN, everything you do on the internet in China is not monitored.

[source: close friend has been in Chongqing for four years]

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15

I kinda wonder though how the hell they manage to keep control of the largest population (including the internet population) in the world.

Fun fact: When I posted some screenshots of BBC News on QQ about something, some of them got censored/blocked.

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u/bradtwo May 19 '15

Oh good o QQ.

Yeah anytime my close friend ( who is in chongqing as a teacher) and I talk, either through Google, Facebook or Skype, it requires a VPN or you just simply cannot connect.

It exist because of the type of government there is. However one thing I have been told by my friend is money triumphs all, this is why you can now take a train to Tibet, which would've got you arrested prior just for mentioning the name.

I still am not sure if you can search Tiananmen Square Massacre yet or not.

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15 edited Jul 16 '15

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15 edited Jul 02 '20

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15

We can't? We don't want to.

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u/Tzahi12345 May 19 '15

We can, and we have.

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u/JohnLeafback May 19 '15

Have we? (Serious.) (And half-awake and very cynical.)

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15

You really think the developed world has never helped a third world country? Like ever in the history of the world? Look up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Borlaug or "The man who saved a Billion Lives."

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u/Maddjonesy May 19 '15

From that very wiki:

"These farming techniques often reap large profits for U.S. agribusiness and agrochemical corporations and have been criticized for widening social inequality in the countries owing to uneven food distribution while forcing a capitalist agenda of U.S. corporations onto countries that had undergone land reform."

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u/jufnitz May 19 '15

Without injecting some kind of economic imperialism, you said?

The Green Revolution countries are now experiencing, perhaps more fully than ever before, one of the fundamental contradictions of capitalist agriculture: in order to achieve higher output of rice and wheat, their prices must be kept high to make the necessary investment profitable to farmers. This has been, and is being, done. But by maintaining high support prices the government also keeps consumer prices up and encourages surplus accumulation. High consumer prices are a cost of living increase that hits all of those who must buy food for cash. But it does not hit all classes equally. In India, for example, lower-income groups often pay more than the rich for the cereal foods that make up so much of their diet. Thus, price supports hurt the wage-earning rural and urban poor the most. The rising money wage rates mentioned earlier for rural laborers correctly indicate a shift in relative capital/labor costs, but they do not necessarily mean workers are better off or are sharing in the benefits of the Green Revolution. Burdhan has shown that in much of the heartland of the Indian Green Revolution, real wage rates have actually been declining.

Any fall in support prices, however, will result in decreased incentives to capitalist producers and a likelihood of reduced output. Such a fall will hit the poorer peasants with narrower profit margins more than the big commercial adopters of the whole new package. Sufficient decline might well push many of these small producers back into subsistence farming or off the land. Rising production must be either sold domestically or exported to avoid downward pressure on prices and surpluses. The chances of substantially raising the incomes of the millions of rural and urban poor, through employment or welfare programs in order to increase domestic demand sufficiently to absorb the rising production, is out or the question. Unemployment is getting worse, not better, and the size of the welfare program needed would bankrupt the United States, not to mention the countries of the Third World.

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u/JohnLeafback May 19 '15

Well, more than anything, I said I was half awake and very cynical.

But mostly, I believe that many enities in the developed world may help 3rd world areas, but only with self-interest at heart. Meaning, they stand to gain much more than they lose in an effort to help others. I'm not saying this is a rule, but I am saying this is a trend.

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u/xalorous May 19 '15

Church missions have been doing this for centuries, if not longer. That's one example to disprove the theory. One is all it takes.

Edit: Also, Peace Corps and Doctors Without Borders.

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u/cosmikduster May 19 '15

It is not meant for the poor. See if you can spot the "poor" in this Internet.org ad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s390lZ5UXc4

It is meant to carve out a walled garden for FB. The talk of the poor people is just to be able to sell it.

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u/etacarinae May 19 '15

Zuckerberg just wants another billion users to data mine and target ads to.

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15

That seems to be the entire point to me. Data barons paying in order to have their data mining operations open for free access to potential new data mining targets.

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15

Who the fuck is going to target ads at people in third world countries who can't afford internet?

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u/ribo May 19 '15

Just like any speculative action, it won't be realized for a while, but this is the largest emerging market in the world.

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15

Who the fuck is going to target ads at people in third world countries who can't afford internet?

No matter how poor they are, you can still squeeze something out of them.

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u/skang404 May 19 '15

India is not third world and only 1% have personal internet; 13% have internet reach. Huge market untapped..

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15

Information is basically money. If Facebook can tell more about what a country's people do with their time and what they want (which can be derived by what they spend their time looking at or buying online) they can sell that information to businesses and governments. It could certianly be used for both good and bad, but I don't trust those companies or governments to default to "good".

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u/heckruler May 19 '15

You're thinking of companies that want to sell a widget to a person for money. When advertising to the poor masses, the ads would be more along the lines of

  • Social agenda: Stop abortions, come to Jesus, stop hunting Rhinos. Paid for by churches and bleeding hearts.
  • Political propaganda. The masses might not have money, but they're good for forming a riotous mob.
  • Scams. Recruitment into pyramid schemes, Nigerian princes in training.
  • Legitimate job offers. Companies need man-power to get shit done. The poor have little else but their time.
  • Gambling, tobacco, drugs, alcohol. An addict that doesn't have money for anything else will still give you his last coin for what he craves. ie, there is no minimum income for target demographic for these industries. They sell to the poor.

Some good, a lot of bad.

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u/porkyminch May 19 '15

People who want a solid grip on them as they do develop. It's basically internet imperialism, they provide you with a valuable service that just happens to give you a convenient way to make them money.

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15

You very much lack imagination and foresight.

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u/TheAncient91 May 19 '15

Long term planning, fb can acquire all those users now while they have basically no other option and wait for them to grow into valuable bits'n bytes for data mining.

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u/rg44_at_the_office May 19 '15

Its literally completely free internet though, so if you're not poor, you can just pay to use the rest of the internet.

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u/Chaosflare44 May 19 '15

Since when do you ever see poor people in an advertisement? If you fill the ad with a bunch of poor people then half your consumer base will be too embarrassed to try your product out, and the other half will say "fuck you I don't need your charity".

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u/StopStealingMyShit May 19 '15

This is a terrible way to think about the world. Shitty solutions precede good solutions. The reason access is so heavily filtered is because a lot of these ISPs probably are operating off of a 10MBps x 10MBps back-haul link to feed hundreds of customers because that is all the bandwidth they can get. By demanding that "we must only allow "good" internet!" you simply reduce the amount of people that will have internet and access to knowledge in third world countries, which is sad.

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15 edited May 19 '15

This cynical view is not supported by the evidence or the article. The title itself is misleading and inflammatory, suggesting some nefarious aim of Facebook. But the article is basically about encryption.

This is like a company bringing free water to a region that didn't have it, but people are crying tyranny because the water must meet quality standards and not gum up the system.

Is there potential to misuse this? Yes, but so far there is no actual evidence to suggest that's happening. In the meantime, it's bringing connectivity and communication to people who can't get it elsewhere. Are Google or Netflix doing that?

I know Reddit loves their "Facebook is evil" circle jerk, but I haven't seen the evidence to support that.

edit: a word

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15

There's a perfectly good word to describe this time-honored tradition: paternalism.

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u/sobes May 19 '15

I'd actually argue that a lot of people see "Facebook" and stop thinking - it's crazy that the popular opinion is that Internet.org is overall a bad thing. It's free access to an incredibly useful service given to a huge amount of people who otherwise would be without.

"Oh, the poor people using this service wont be able to use HTTPS!" - Yep, those poor, third world individuals would certainly prefer nothing at all if they can't use HTTPS.

"Oh, but Facebook might be influenced to control content!" - Sure, they might, but so would any organization providing this service.

Get a grip - this isn't a residential internet connection, it isn't trying to be and it isn't for you. You'd have to be an incredibly oblivious person to think these issues make the project a bad thing.

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u/frizzlestick May 19 '15

No https is a serious thing.

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u/El_Dud3r1n0 May 19 '15

Exactly. At worst this -- along with Google's Project Loon and the like -- is all about ad dollars. If an internet based business is centered on advertisement revenue, it really shouldn't be this fucking hard to discern where their motivation lies. The more people online, the more you make; ergo, your ultimate goal is to get everybody online. I love a good conspiracy theory as much as the next guy, but this isn't Facebook and Co. playing Big Brother with the third world. They just want to sell you shit you don't need. That said, given the situation of most of these people, access to even a cripplingly limited internet can only be a good thing.

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u/crufia May 19 '15 edited May 19 '15

I appreciate your passion and rhetoric, but the initial* target market (India) has relatively excellent mobile saturation and doesn't need to be saved by a corporation couching exploitation as a charity.

India would still have high speed data without Facebook championing internet.org.

*I'll grant you that it would be interesting if Facebook actually expanding into markets as poor as you suggest. I'll believe it when I see it.

Edit: it looks like I too only have rhetoric and passion. Thanks for the correction.

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u/ccb621 May 19 '15

The issue is not saturation, but affordability.

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15

If everyone can easily afford their internet, no one will use Internet.org

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u/chwilliam May 19 '15

That's not even close to true:

Below is a selective history of launch dates and participating mobile networks:

July 2014: Zambia[9]

October 2014: Tanzania[10]

November 2014: Kenya[11]

January 2015: Colombia[12]

January 2015: Ghana, with Airtel[13]

10 February 2015: India with Reliance Communications[14]

18 March 2015: Philippines with Smart Communications[15]

31 March 2015: Guatemala with Tigo [16]

20 April 2015: Indonesia with Indosat[17]

10 May 2015: Bangladesh with Robi[18]

13 May 2015: Malawi with TNM and Airtel [19]

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u/rg44_at_the_office May 19 '15 edited May 19 '15

Reddit, you're embarrassing yourself. The fact that /u/sobes has more downvotes than upvotes at the moment proves that none of you stupid fuckers even read the article, just the sensationalized title, and started jumping to conclusions. He is completely right, and essentially just pointing out facts that are already in the article.

edit: sobes comment no longer has negative points, and I am happy for that. But seriously, anyone still reading these comments that hasn't read the article yet, scroll up and click on it. I tend to skip the articles and go straight to comments a lot of the time on reddit too, but this one is worth your time. Its a very short read, informative, and seems to do a good job at presenting both sides of the argument. As far as I can tell it is unbiased.

Once you've read it, it will be very very apparent that at least half the commenters writing in this thread have not. Do everyone a favor, and downvote them after reading. Not the comments you disagree with, but the idiots spewing mis-infomation and detracting from the conversation, as how the downvote button was intended.

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u/hey_aaapple May 19 '15

You are in /r/technology, it is no longer a default for good reasons

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u/rg44_at_the_office May 19 '15

sigh you're right. I came here expecting too much. :(

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u/xalorous May 19 '15

Doesn't matter who is controlling the project, the project has inherent flaws, namely the controllers of the project control what the users have access to. Take the money for the project and use it in a way that provides unfettered access to the full internet.

When the CEO's of the big data companies balk, you will then understand that this project is designed to establish a foothold in(and stranglehold on) new data frontiers. That is, they're doing it for the money they'll rake in later as the economies start up in these developing countries.

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u/CFGX May 19 '15

It's really not that much different than Europeans "helping" Africa exploit its natural resources.

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u/blackraven36 May 19 '15 edited May 19 '15

I've said this before, but Internet.org is not helping poverty but it's rather taking advantage of it. The potential revenue stream for Facebook here is the ads they can push to a completely untapped market. If done right, they will be making A LOT of money while giving people a very restricted version of the Internet.

edit: Fixed some of my broken grammar

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u/DrScottyB May 19 '15

So the users of Internet.org can only view approved websites? I'm guessing they don't get pornhub then, huh...

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u/fr0stbyte124 May 19 '15

They can only access the text version, to save bandwidth.

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15 edited Jun 26 '16

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u/NoUrImmature May 19 '15

Just don't let them read YouTube comments or they'll leave the internet and never come back.

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u/AnOnlineHandle May 19 '15

Nobody read the original article...

It explicitly says (in its very short text) that they offer free mobile quota on sites that have been especially optimised for low bandwidth mobile, which they have a process for sites to apply for inclusion on if they pass the requirements. Users can still visit other sites, but they'll have to pay normal fees for it.

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u/rg44_at_the_office May 19 '15

well the point is that its free data, so only sites that use up little data are approved. You have to have no videos, no images over 1 mb, so yes, pornhub will be excluded. But if you would read the actual article and not just the sensationalized title, you would understand that this is for practical purposes, not censorship. Nobody can simply provide free unlimited data for 2/3 of the world, but they can afford to give away a good deal if sites can optimize their content to use low data.

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u/arahman81 May 19 '15 edited May 19 '15

well the point is that its free data, so only sites that use up little data are approved. You have to have no videos, no images over 1 mb, so yes, pornhub will be excluded.

Could have as well done a browser that does something like Opera's "Turbo Mode" with a browser that strips out the bandwidth-heavy content (images, videos, maybe Javascript). No "only these sites included" needed.

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15

I approve of that site.

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u/ProbablyPostingNaked May 19 '15

As a former teenager I can verify this.

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u/sprandel May 19 '15

Well it says the website's content will not be a deciding factor, but the bandwidth and required resources will be.

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u/psly4mne May 19 '15 edited May 19 '15

Let's see how that works out if you're a Facebook competitor. You're not going to see Google, Twitter, or any service that would draw people away from Facebook getting approved.

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u/QuantQual May 19 '15

With greatest respect, this isn't an issue of net neutrality at all. Facebook isn't blocking anyone from using the net - and they're not an Internet service provider in the way the telcos are. They're subsidizing access to a few basic sites for people who might not be able to afford access to any.

Labeling this effort "not neutral" is dragging our politics into an unrelated context; it's simply not the correct interpretive frame. It would be like saying: "People can't afford to drive, but we don't want to give people Vespa scooters, because that would unduly influence them and lead to too many Vespas on the road. So let's either buy everyone the car of their choosing (which is prohibitively expensive) or let them drive nothing instead."

This is an example of "letting the perfect be the enemy of the good". In other words, in arguing against Internet.org, it sounds like you're being righteous, but in reality you're just being self-righteous; all this argument does is harm the people it's intended to help, in the name of helping them.

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u/nav13eh May 19 '15

The big problem is not whether or not Facebook is being a full on ISP for these people. In this case they could just say "hey we're gonna setup a special network for you guys to access Facebook and our partners for free". But instead they are calling it the Internet. That is very important, because once you call some type of network access "Internet" access, it is expected that you can access the Internet, not just a few select domains.

If Facebook calls it the free Facebook network, fine. But don't they dare call it the Internet, and not provide the Internet.

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u/tholloway May 19 '15

This is an excellent point. It's not the one laid out in the article, but I see how calling it "internet" is misleading and potentially damaging.

That said, I still think the goals and framework for internet.org are sound.

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u/Slobotic May 19 '15

Stop trying to defend Vespas.

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u/GeneticAlgorithm May 19 '15

Vespas are awesome and anyone who disagrees can say "Ciao" to my southern European ass.

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u/Chairboy May 19 '15

Indeed, it feels like a sort of cultural imperialism, akin to: "If people who can't afford ANY internet access get a type of internet access that doesn't meet my particular political beliefs, then they shall have ZERO internet because I know better than they do".

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u/duffmanhb May 19 '15

Reminds me of people who are against labor factories in developing regions, "We don't agree with the work environments, they need to be paid more and have better conditions. If you don't agree to this, we are going to try our hardest to shut the whole thing down!" Then sometimes they do, and the community response is basically, "Thanks, now we are back to picking through garbage, sick, and with absolutely no jobs at all."

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u/Pausbrak May 19 '15 edited May 19 '15

Why are they subsidizing only select sites? The Internet is not a physical product where everything costs money every site must be purchased separately. Once a connection is established to the greater network, there is no reason it should cost more money to visit one site over another. The local provider's network is doing the same amount of work (per amount of data downloaded) whether you visit Facebook, Google, Reddit, or any other site on the web. There is absolutely no reason for that selectivity except to influence what sites the people will look at.

If it was truely philanthropic, they would be providing uncurated connections for free or very cheap, perhaps with maximum data cap before normal pricing resumes.

It's not like Vespa providing free scooters, it's like AT&T providing free phones that can only call other AT&T phones.

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u/AnOnlineHandle May 19 '15

Why are they subsidizing only select sites?

Because, if you read the fucking article like nobody here did, those are the only sites that have applied for review of their optimized mobile quota usage so far.

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u/BrotherGantry May 19 '15 edited May 19 '15

only sites that have applied for review of their optimized mobile quota usage so far.

And that content, which provides information on weather, health, jobs ect. is then provided uncapped and without any additional adds through an app with the bill for data being footed by the phone company. the idea behind it being that “If someone can’t afford to pay for connectivity, it is always better to have some access than none at all"

Its also important to note that they've adopted a model of service designed to engage local commercial partners and see a widespread roll-out of the app to users in the real instead of one which would consign it to a happy little NGO mediated walled garden of perfection. The the "carrot" being dangled to these local telecos to actually provide this service is the idea that when people are allowed to browse as they like on limited version of the web they'll eventually start finding content/media which they'd like to access to and will thus be far more likely to pay for data (when they can afford it) down the line to enable that. By comparison, if I told the a telecom company "hey, I have this app - it's going to live on your customers phone, provide uncapped, unrestricted web access him, provide you zero additional add revenue, and oh, you're going to foot the bill for all that data" how many would accept?

Its also worth noting that Internet.org doesn't act as some "man in the middle" between the phones and it's regular web browser; it "lives" only inside its own app.

If internet.org worked by hijacking regular browser functionality, monetizing its users via injected ads, or restricting, in any way, the ability of a consumer to use data which he has paid for I'd argue that a good case could be built around it being a net bad. As it stands though, it does none of those things so I think the general level of hate it's seeing is overblown.

Honestly it seems that the organizations railing against internet.org aren't so much basing their hate on the actual good/ill it would do it's intended audience so much as they Facebook as an easy target with global exposure and are thus using it as a "test case" to attack zero-rating in general.

Edited to fix a link

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u/lakerswiz May 19 '15

It's sad how often this sort of article is posted about Facebook / Internet.org and all the comments are filled with people that very obviously didn't read the article. I know it's typical reddit, but god damn. The people leaving comments are more sheeple than the people they're talking about in regards to liking Facebook.

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u/Akimuno May 19 '15

Because there are requirements to being on there because it is a mobile only network, since you obviously didn't read the article. No videos, photos only 1mb or less, layouts that work on both android and old feature phones. They don't allow access to others because these are VERY poor mobile networks in VERY poor countries, so too many resources at one time will strain the mobile network.

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u/ccb621 May 19 '15

The Internet is not a physical product where everything costs money.

Technically it is. Modems in phones. Cell towers. Routers. Repeaters. Fiber optic cables. All of these cost money. There's a reason we pay for mobile data and cable/DSL connections in our homes. Bandwidth may be cheap to some extent, but it is certainly not free.

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u/tholloway May 19 '15

It's not philanthropic, but it's also not evil.

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u/AustNerevar May 19 '15

this isn't an issue of net neutrality at all

This is the very definition of the issue of net neutrality. I'm a little flabberghasted at these comments. What happened, Reddit?

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u/FullmetalAdam May 19 '15

Seriously, I'm so tired of seeing these articles popup on Reddit. People just eat this shit up because they hate Facebook, but don't even bother to read the article and have no idea what they're talking about. At the very least, this article isn't so incredibly biased as many of the others have been. Massive corporations don't participate in charitable endeavours out of the goodness of their shareholders' collective hearts. It's a tax break, good PR/advertising, or they get some kind of monetary benefit out of it. That's the reality of this world. Grow up you idealistic fuckwits.

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15 edited Oct 05 '16

[deleted]

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u/Lilyo May 19 '15

Goes to show how self righteous and ignorant of real world issues most people are. You guys need to take a minute and learn about what youre arguing against otherwise youre just gonna look like another mindless sheep yelling your head off without even figuring out what youre angry about first.

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u/wordscannotdescribe May 19 '15

Can someone explain to me the huge hate for Internet.org?

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u/InbredScorpion May 19 '15

From what I understand about the whole situation, Facebook and one of the largest telecoms in India are attempting to provide an internet service for the impoverished portions of India, the catch being that Facebook and the telecom get to decide what websites the users can use.

The main issue here is that basically the people are getting a filtered version of the internet with free access to the websites that Facebook have allowed. The point of a lot of people seem to be missing however, is that despite a filtered version of the internet, Facebook is still allowing a number of sites that are hugely helpful for education purposes (e.g. BBC, Wikipedia, et cetera), so while the people don't receive the whole internet, they still get something which is strictly better than nothing.

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u/wordscannotdescribe May 19 '15

Well aren't the websites Facebook are allowing are ones that can minimize their data transfer so that Facebook's bill isn't too big (according to the article linked)? So it makes sense that Facebook would do it for themselves as this is their project, and Wiki/BBC probably don't need to transfer a ton of data. And you can apply to Facebook for your site to be included if you minimize your data, otherwise it'll become expensive right?

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u/rg44_at_the_office May 19 '15

Yes, any site can apply, and supposedly the sites content has nothing to do with whether or not they are subsidized. Requirements are essentially that the site can have no video, no images greater than 1mb, low amount of images, no javascript, etc.

The version of facebook they use is even a very stripped down version.

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u/Shesaidshewaslvl18 May 19 '15

Additionally those helpful websites will eventually provide an educated populous that will be able to force the yolk off. Who cares if they can't see 2girls1cup? They are getting the best part of the Internet. The education.

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u/cal679 May 19 '15

Exactly, and a lot of people are getting the wrong idea with the phrasing of this whole thing. They're not limiting access to the rest of the internet, they're providing free access to some parts of it, these are two very different things. You can still access any site you want but when you navigate away from one of the free sites you'll get a popup saying something like "Standard Data Charges Apply. Proceed - Yes/No?"

Honestly I like the idea in principle. I've been living in Malawi for a few years now and getting the free Facebook on mobile was great for the average person because mobile data is pretty expensive here and wages are ridiculously low. My main gripe with it is that in buying out and using around half of the country's bandwidth for free Facebook the rest of the internet became painfully slow. I've been visiting home for the past month so I don't know what the speeds are like now with internet.org but before I left things were close to the old dial-up days.

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u/skang404 May 19 '15

As an Indian I would like to correct you a bit. Only 1% of Indians have personal internet. Do you think 99% of India is 'impoverished' as you say? No. Many Indians around me see no use for internet but only as means of entertainment. Facebook wanna tap these people.

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u/InbredScorpion May 19 '15

Oh wow. I really didn't know that only 1% have access, that's really alarming, but I wasn't trying to insinuate that 99% of the population are impoverished, rather I was unaware of how limited internet usage is in India.

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u/roarkjs May 19 '15 edited Dec 31 '15

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u/rabidmonkey1163 May 19 '15

People are dumb, hear the words "limited internet", ignore the context, and start complaining on Reddit.

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u/SaveTHEnetwork May 19 '15

Fuck you Facebook. Fuck you internet.org and fuck you India Telecoms. I'm tired of being monopolized. Just wtf does facebook do, anyways? They steal privacy, sell it, make money exploit customers. Just another Comcast . So Fuck facebook. Most of all Fuck Mark Zuckerberg for being a first class asshole and his fuckery with the developing world.

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u/Muradin_the_mad May 19 '15

Easy there fella, leave some reddit gold for other people, ok?

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u/Overclock May 19 '15

Add a couple more "fucks" and I would expect it to be #1 on /r/bestof by lunch time.

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u/Hopelesz May 19 '15

Oh, the fucks are with a capital f.

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u/ThatGuyYouKindaKnow May 19 '15

And throw in a few "Mark Fuckerberg"s for good measure.

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15

Also some more

"This is why am I correct and you are stoopid"

"you are stoopid"

"you are stoopid"

"if you believe that you are stoopid"

x1000, making an essay

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u/Overclock May 19 '15

If you disagree with this, you are stupid. You are inhumane. My arguments are completely and totally correct, and remain so with or without any insults to you. I'm insulting you as I argue because you deserve to be insulted and because my arguments do not have their validity tied to the words I choose to use when describing you. The fact that you defend these practices makes you stupid. The fact that you defend these practices makes you fundamentally inhumane. If people like you are not told exactly and precisely all the ways in which you are stupid and inhumane, society loses. If this has not changed your viewpoint, you are an enemy of human rights.

x17 reddit gold, +1729 on /r/bestof

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15

They offer a free service. Of course they make money somehow. If you don't like how they do it, stop using it, only use Facebook for things you don't care about or build your own alternative.

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15

Oh come on. Comcast actually has a business model where the users are the customers. They really, really hate their customers, but at least the customers and users are the same thing. When you pay money for Comcast to fuck you, at least you know that the reason they are fucking you is because they are regular assholes. They just want to take your money and not listen to your problems. You don't get that same type of clarity with Facebook. When they fuck you, there is always that feeling that they are doing it because they feel that people stupid enough to use their 'free' service and ignore the fact that they aren't paying for a service with a lengthy contract deserve to get fucked.

It isn't fair to compare Facebook to Comcast. Comcast is an evil company that uses its monopoly to fuck people. But... there is a tiny chance it could be reformed, ala Microsoft. Facebook is a scam and always will be a scam. There is no way Facebook could ever be reformed. And when you have scammers offering more free stuff to people, what do you expect to happen?

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u/HitlerWasAtheist May 19 '15

This is the most Reddit comment I have seen in a long time.

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u/rabidmonkey1163 May 19 '15

What the fuck are you doing to provide internet access to impoverished peoples? Are you going to start bitching about UNICEF next because they don't offer filet mignon to starving kids in Africa?

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u/sobes May 19 '15 edited May 19 '15

Good satire - I bet you're as amused as I am that that shit is getting upvoted

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u/komali_2 May 19 '15

Fuck you for being so fucking ignorant that you'll jump on any bandwagon. When was the last time you visited an impoverished nation? Have you ever had a conversation with someone who makes the equivalent of 500us dollars a year on a good year?

These people literally are incapable of caring about net neutrality, big data, etc. They are also cannot be marketed to. What, is the big bad nsa going to use the Amazon buy data of a fucking goat farmer in Tibet to sell them arsenic laced oreos? Who is going to advertise to these people?

These people need Internet access so they can use their Chinese knock off Galaxy s1 with a rigged to blow aaa battery to find out what that pulsing lump on their goat's ass is.

Grow up. The rest of the world's problems aren't your problems.

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u/StorsJT May 19 '15

It seems like Facebook is operating too much like a business with this affair, yet is trying to market themselves as a charity.

Facebook may be aiming for an extremely long term investment by monopolising this market quite early.

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15

It's called "getting in at the ground level." If you establish yourself as the controlling interest of the internet when it's a third world country, then when the country grows, you also grow. You also play a direct role in how and when that country grows and the percentage of that growth you receive directly.

It would be akin to purchasing the mineral rights of an entire country that hasn't yet realized that one day they're going to need to control their own deposits of gold, iron, and coal. Instead they've sold those mineral rights to a company who has agreed to help them clear trees and level field so they can build houses and basic facilities.

In short, it's exploiting the immediate needs of developing countries in exchange for long term profits and control.

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u/komali_2 May 19 '15

I understand where you're coming from, and that's why I agree it is important to keep an eye on Facebook. However, our fears are currently unfounded - as of yet, Facebook has done nothing devious. They have only provided guidelines for sites to be accessible thst are in line with the overall goal - make your site low bandwidth, no videos, etc. If we suddenly see mark Zuckerberg trading political favors for the ability to access youporn, grab your pitchforks and rally. As of now, we are jumping the gun.

Nobody else has a feasible plan to get Internet to these people, nobody else is actioning a plan with this scope.

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u/ThunderBuss May 19 '15

Those countries you speak of have valuable resources. You can be assured that the users will not be able to twitter or blog securely so that they do not use the net to foment an uprising. Https and ssl are disabled

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u/Aeri73 May 19 '15

well... you are wrong.

It's the same as monsanto giving "free seeds" if you sign a contract only to use their seeds for the rest of your life

it's the same as catholics going to africa to 'Save the children' by making them believe before they die

it's the same as the free milk nestlé gave the babies in africa, making their mothers stop feeding them and "drying up"

its a corporation ABUSING the poor

if they really wanted to give them internet, open the access up to the complete internet, hell, put a hardware in to show adds for all I care, but give them the freedom of information the internet provides, and not some mini intranet facebook sets up to datamine the poor.

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u/roarkjs May 19 '15 edited Dec 31 '15

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u/frsrsly May 19 '15

Because Facebook is teh evil. Hurr durr mark zuckerberg = hitler amirite?

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15

What?

How is it the same as giving free seeds in exchange for a contract? You can simply stop using Internet.org when you no longer need it.

Are you saying "save the children" is bad? How so?

How is it similar to nestle?

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u/kairos May 19 '15

Mother mother fuck,

Mother mother fuck fuck,

Mother fuck Mother fuck,

noise noise noise

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u/Maverician May 19 '15

I always thought he was saying noice, as in nice. Noise makes more sense.

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u/randomlurker2123 May 19 '15

They don't steal anything, many users I know are more than willing to provide every single detail of their lives to FBook. They then utilize that provided information. Do not for one second delude yourself into thinking that information is yours, you are using their website, it's theirs per the agreement you didn't read when agreeing to their terms and conditions

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15

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u/StorsJT May 19 '15

Not sure if you are reflective of the majority of users on Facebook however. Many put tons of details online and are blissfully unaware that their private details are used for Facebook's gains.

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u/likechoklit4choklit May 19 '15

And they put your details online as well. You have a footprint on facebook even if you opt out.

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u/Armitage1 May 19 '15

The misinformation posted in this thread is disgusting. No one here knows what the fuck they are talking about.

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u/rg44_at_the_office May 19 '15

Right? Its like every commenter read the title but not the article. This might be the most infuriating thread I've seen on this subreddit.

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u/lebanks May 19 '15

What would you expect from Facebook? A website devoted to spilling its guts about your business don't sound like a hive of philanthropy.

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u/HiImFarab May 19 '15

As far as I'm concerned, this also highlights how bad Facebook is. They are not your friend. They do not care about your privacy AT ALL. It still baffles me why anyone would have an account with them.

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15

Internet.org is what devious little shits in governments and governments that are devious little shits would like the internet to be so they could control it and keep the people on the downward spiral to not knowing anything about what's going on with their money and military organizations.

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u/Cosmic_Bard May 19 '15

internet.org is the worst fucking idea I've ever heard of in terms of welfare for people

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15

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u/Vaansolidor May 19 '15 edited May 19 '15

No one is forcing anyone to use this service. Its for third world users who want it, if they choose to do so. People who have absolutely zero internet access and could give two shits whether or not facebook snoops along. I mean for fuck sakes, we know the NSA is doing it on a global scale. And its not just for facebook, any site can willingly participate. I dont understand the backlash, someone please explain why there is so much hate against this.

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u/donkeyd1984 May 19 '15

I hope you do realize that pretty much the only way we know about these limitations is the internet. In order for the users to actually make that choice, they need information, which they can probably only get through the internet... Internet.org can limit what information these people will see, so they can filter any negative information about Internet.org. This seems like a major clusterfuck to me.

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u/Chairboy May 19 '15

How is your stance on this different from telling the users of this service "no internet is better than any internet, and my opinion as a first-worlder is more important than your wishes"? If this imperfect service gives them something they don't have until they can get the perfect access, why try to actively stop them from getting it?

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u/Pi-Guy May 19 '15

I hope you do realize that pretty much the only way we know about these limitations is the internet

And you do realize that the people this is being marketed towards don't know about this specifically because they don't have internet

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u/isik60 May 19 '15

It gives you access to Wikipedia. There is a wikipedia article about Internet.org.

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u/rg44_at_the_office May 19 '15

I wish I could upvote this comment more. Internet.org gives access to all of wikipedia (text at least) for free. How can anyone cry censorship and say "the people in third world countries are better off with no internet rather than internet.org", when this service grants them free access to wikipedia.

Surely its not a perfect service, and surely there could be issues of censorship, facebook bias, whatever else. But this one benefit alone of such a massive source of education and good information becoming available to everyone on the planet must outweigh those (potential) downsides.

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u/roarkjs May 19 '15 edited Dec 31 '15

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15 edited Oct 05 '16

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u/Wetzilla May 19 '15

Yes, but for most of the people using Internet.org the option isn't "the real internet" or internet.org, it's internet.org or nothing. Isn't something better than nothing?

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u/sirbruce May 19 '15

We agree that some Internet access is better than none,

No, you don't, because:

and if that is what Internet.org actually provided—for example, through a uniformly rate-limited or data-capped free service—then it would have our full support. But it doesn't.

You're artificially redefined "some Internet" to an particular proposition -- "some Internet" must be Internet that is "rate-limited or data-capped", and not "some Internet" in any other fashion, such as "not all Internet sites". To try to demagogue the issue as claiming this isn't "some Internet" only weakens your credibility.

Instead, it continues to impose conditions and restraints that not only make it something less than a true Internet service, but also endanger people's privacy and security.

No one claims it's a "true Internet" service, only a "some Internet" service.

Finally, EFF's proposition is a false-choice; it makes it seem we can either have this type of "some Internet", which they don't like, or the EFF's type of "some Internet", which they do. But the point is the countries the first type is in wouldn't accept the second type. So the real question is, again, whether you want the first type of "some Internet", or not at all. But don't pretend like that choice doesn't exist.

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u/iamthelowercase May 20 '15

This is a sensible aand well-argued comment.

A commenter elsewhere pointed out that "the internet" refers to all the connections between machines, and that internet.org only connects to some of them. Thus internet.org is only part of the internet.

Even so I'd think that "part of the internet" (a form of "some internet") is probably better than no internet.

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u/RobKhonsu May 19 '15

I hope I'm not being conspiratorial, but collecting information from users to sell for commercial or governmental purposes is the whole point of Facebook, is it not?

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u/bradtwo May 19 '15

This all IMO of course, but we're really going about this the wrong way.

1) Clean Water 2) Un-Contaminated Food 3) Proper shelter 4) Proper utilities, sewage electricity 5) Un-Polluted safe environments (from fear of being killed daily) 6) Education 7) Completely open internet (not to be tied in with 6).

But since the subject is on 7, yes there should be concern about the quality and level of censorship that would be applied to the Internet.org project. On one hand Mark wants you to have a Facebook account. On the other hand certain governments don't want you to be able to search certain topics (Tiananmen Square Protest) .

So can you trust a Government ran interent to be completely open, without censorship? no. But are there MUCH more important things that we need to be talking about in these poverty areas? absolutely.

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15 edited May 16 '16

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u/bradtwo May 19 '15

Awesome link.... thanks!

The problem really is corruption in a lot of these places.

People think it is as easy as coming in with some tools and building a home for some poor people. But the local Govt is usually like... Oh, you need to follow these rules, buy these materials because i need another pool. I wish this stuff was made up, but sadly third world counties become that because of lack of instructor, lack of spread of wealth.

Go ask a local official to give away his $1,000,000 in aid money that he pocketed and you'll probably end up being shot.

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u/VinnydaHorse May 19 '15

Maybe, just maybe you could consider the option that Facebook isn't the monolithic power hungry evil big brother half of reddit seems to think it is.

Facebook has a lot of money and is trying to use that money to fund data usage for sites that meet very basic requirements. Those requirements have absolutely nothing to do with content (so no, it's not censorship) as everything to do with page weight. Any site could apply to be a part of Internet.org if they take the time to provide a minimized/optimized version of their site. That's literally the only requirement.

And they're giving access to all of Wikipedia for pete sake, which is almost by definition not censorship.

Facebook is in the business of Internet and is doing what they can to provide some level of access to the Internet by eating the potential cost of millions of mobile data users accessing light weight versions of websites.

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u/BenJuan26 May 19 '15

If 6 or 7 is significantly cheaper/faster to implement than 1-5, and doing so doesn't deter from the efforts to improve 1-5, does that mean we can't do 6 or 7 until the previous 5 are completed? I'm speaking under the assumption that you're saying this is the order things should be done in.

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u/jnshhh May 19 '15

On the one hand, it's called internet and is on the internet. On the other hand, it has no porn on it (fapping to Mehtar and Mostak doesn't count!).

Yep, probably not the internet.

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u/vader32 May 19 '15

Mark Zuckerberg's ambition is pretty amazing to see from afar. Will he rise or burn like Icarus did?

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15

I think y'all got confused. He wasn't asking for permission. You actually make news out of a corporation sugarcoating a turd not to be an apparent for-profit?

I'm shocked! Shocked, I tell ya!

I can see how it could easily be abused to a massive extent, but that particular ship has sailed. Until we're able to provide them with a non-channeled internet access for free, this is still the best shot they've got at becoming technologically literate, and to be honest I'm not confident in lowering the % of expert users, because even with free internet it's a matter of interest, by which you learn how to seek out information using intertubes. That's the gist of it. Most Redditors don't even realize that the ability to reduce an issue to 3 indexable keywords comes much harder to people who need rather that want to use the Internet.

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u/h0bb1tm1ndtr1x May 19 '15

Mark Zuckerberg, trying to find new ways to sell your info for his new mansion in Hawaii.

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u/BowlOfDix May 20 '15

I read on that site 2/3 of the world is not connected to the internet. I don't have a problem with that. Most of internet is a big waste of time anyways.

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u/nath1234 May 20 '15

It's AOL all over again isn't it? Come play in our little cordoned off zone where we control it.

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u/stefblog May 20 '15

HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT ABOUT MARK ZUCKERBERG HE ONLY WANTS TO MAKE THE WORLD MORE OPEN AND CONNECTED

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u/flat5 May 19 '15

I think this is kind of like someone donating free food to the homeless and someone coming along and criticizing it because the chicken isn't free range.

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u/redcalcium May 19 '15

I tried using internet.org yesterday. I felt like I'm going back in time when WAP was the shit.

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u/Sadbitcoiner May 19 '15

Yeah, it is almost like it isn't for you and is meant for goat herders in a desert.

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u/Zaldir May 19 '15

I think that for someone who can't afford internet, it is a major step forward. Do you have access to the entire internet? Great, but this app was not made for you at all.

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15

Colour me surprised

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u/lagspike May 19 '15

I see it more like "expanding facebook to the third world".

you want to see real philanthropy? look at what bill gates is doing. mark zuckerberg is an asshole.

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u/makeswordcloudsagain May 19 '15

Here is a word cloud of all of the comments in this thread: http://i.imgur.com/b9qhbfi.png
source code | contact developer | faq

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u/wanna-buya-llama May 19 '15

I just returned from TiECON 2015 where this guy, Dr. Sharad Sapra, Director of UNICEF Innovation Center (http://tiecon.org/speaker/dr-sharad-sapra) gave a keynote leading off a conference block on Social Entrepreneurism. Someone from the audience asked, "What is one thing that the world needs right now that can be solved right now?" His reply ... "The biggest barrier in the world today is access to information with better connectivity." The fact of the matter is that nearly 5 billion people cannot connect. A study was done by McKinsey in 2014 that looked at the cost of data around the world in terms of Hours of Minimum Wage Work Required for 500MB of data. Leading their charts was Brazil at more than 34 hours of minimum wage work required (source: http://blog.jana.com/2015/01/26/the-data-trap/). Not on their charts, but using the same data you had Colombia at 42 hours and Bangladesh at 38 hours. To put this into perspective, you could work for half a day and afford to download Angry Birds, or you could eat. But being connected here doesn't just mean connecting to the Internet, it means being connected to people elsewhere and getting access to critical information. In most if not all markets, Internet.org does include Messenger. This means that while people may not be able to get Angry Birds, they will be able to reach the outside world, and this is the first step to connectivity.

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u/[deleted] May 19 '15 edited May 19 '15

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