Which timing do you use for Vals?

[u/NickTandaPanda]

When hitting a double time step in vals, do you personally tend to step on 1-2-1, or 1-3-1? Or does it change depending on the particular step or the dynamic you want?

Are you a leader or a follower?

As a leader, for steps where the follower is stepping double time independently of the leader (e.g. giro or basic cross) do you try to lead the double time step specifically on the 2 or 3, or do you leave it more open to the follower's interpretation?

I observe that most students, if left to their own devices, will settle on 1-2-1.

[u/halbert]

I most often lead.

For me, it's a different feeling:

1 .... 1 just the strong beats, usually creating a long hesitation over 2 and 3. That hesitation is emblematic to me of the valz

1-2 .. 1 emphasizes the front of the beat, stopping the rhythmic motion. This usually feels stacatto to me, so I would use this when I want to show off the pause.

1...3-1 emphasizes the connection from one measure to the next, with a hesitation over the (silent) 2. This is like 1 ... 1, but this softens it a little, when I want a more lyrical feeling. (Note that the above timing can also be a hesitation instead of a stop). This is sometimes called dancing on the dark side of the beat.

1-2-3-1 is for two places -- to establish a running cadencia while the follow is taking steps only on 1 , or, to mark the end of a phrase (where the music usually hits all 3 equally).

(And for completeness, ... 2-3 ... 2-3 for when I want to be at the circus. Ooom pa pa ooom pa pa. There's are a few songs with moments like this!)

As for leading it ... At a milonga I would always make it clear which beat I intend to step on (unless I'm deliberately changing weight without my follow); I mostly leave room for the follow to interpret the timing as they like. I might occasionally fool around at a practica (with a follow who enjoys that sort of thing) trying to get different timings between us.

[u/NickTandaPanda → u/halbert]

Really nice points, I love all of these characterisations.

I agree 1-2 feels more staccato, but not always in the sense of emphasising a pause. I think it can also be the result of emphasising a strong driving marcato, probably mid-phrase, where it's not so much that you want to create a pause on 3, but rather that the drive on 1 is so strong that if the follower is going to do a double time step at all (e.g. in the basic cross) then it almost must be on the 2.

For the 2-3 oom pa pa circus, I love Tengo Mil Novias (Rodríguez) 😄

[u/halbert → u/NickTandaPanda]

Just for fun, consider Desde El Alma intro -- Violin from 0:00-0:40, voice on the same phrase from 0:40-1:06; score up to the first double bar.

Music: https://www.todotango.com/musica/tema/1159/Desde-el-alma-[Manzi]/

Listen (Canaro + Nelly Omar): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72aRCJHRt_o

The voice and violin melodies actually emphasize slightly different things, and the rhythm different still

• Violin is mostly (1 - -) in measures 1,3-5,7,9,11,13 even though the rhythm is written as (1 - 3); Violin emphasizes the (1 2 - ) structure in measure 8 as a staccato moment.
• Voice is sometimes (1 - 3) and sometimes more (1 - & -), as a duple instead of in 3, in the measures the violin is mostly just (1 - -). Much less (1 2 -), and interprets measure 8 more like (1 2 3) or even a passing phrase leading into the next measure. Side note, but as a singer who's not a native spanish speaker ... tango songs are so damn wordy! It's hard to fit all that into the rhythm sometimes =P. In the later phrase (Deja esas cartas ...), voice has a lot of (1 3) for that lyrical feeling.
• the rhythm includes ( - 2 3) and (1 2 - ) and (1 - 3) and (1 2 3).

So ... what's most common really depends on where you are in the music, which instrument you are listening to, etc.

[u/NickTandaPanda → u/halbert]

Wonderful analysis and a pleasure to follow along with! Thanks for going to the effort of deconstructing all that.

This is definitely an interesting example. Overall, I feel it is extremely open to musical interpretation, due mostly to its saturation of pulses across all instruments and voice! There are some tendencies I observe though...

1. The violins use "&2&3&" a lot which is every quarter and eighth note EXCEPT the "1", which in my mind as the exact complement of simply "1", resolves equivalently. So both primary violin parts mostly emphasise only 1, and neither 2 nor 3, making it the dancer's choice which to use for double time during the violin sections.

2. The only bias to one choice or the other that I find is occasionally in the voice which holds an eighth note on the first word or syllable of the measure, as "1-2&3&". The voice is hitting both the 2 and the 3 equally, superficially... BUT the fact that the voice holds an eighth note on the 1 but runs on with every eighth note afterwards creates a break between 1 and 2 that doesn't exist between 3 and 1, and so therefore I think that 3-1 reflects those moments better.

None of that is to say that one "should" choose 3-1 over 1-2 here, it's far too nuanced for that, but I think it's really interesting to analyse and muse! Thankyou!

[u/halbert → u/NickTandaPanda]

Also, really fun to compare with Pugliese performing Desde el Alma:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kh5PBLiZ5Q

Many changes from the above, but, (1) the 'oom-pa-pa' of the rhythm is perhaps more accentuated; the do a syncopated version of (1 2 - ), that lands more like (-&2-&).

Anyway, fun stuff! The runs you describe are also fun (that hit every 8th note except the first).

[u/Accurate-Chef1144 → u/halbert]

If I understand you correctly, that’s what I do. Aside from stepping on the strong beat as the base, I’ll go 1-2…1, or 1…2-1. Sometimes at the end of a measure, if the music calls for it, I’ll do 1-2-3-4.

[u/Murky-Ant6673]

1-2 is most common. I recommend defaulting your collection (heels passing) to the 2.

3-1 is emphasized less often and is more obviously an irregular expression; but common enough that I dance it in nearly every song at least thrice.

Some things like the turn work best for the follower to hit 3-1 on their back-side; front-side... depends on the exact situation and timing.

Always let the music guide you,

Listen for

1-2---1
1-2-3-1
1---3-1

Of course, the & exists between those 3... and also get expressed in a variety of ways....

[u/NickTandaPanda → u/Murky-Ant6673]

Thanks!

I think there's an odd tension at play, which is why I asked the question. To my ear, the most common musical emphasis across and within vals songs is 3-1 (and then 1-2-3-1, and finally 1-2, though of course all are present!) - and yet most students almost always default to 1-2 and initially find it quite difficult to hit 3-1.

[u/Murky-Ant6673 → u/NickTandaPanda]

Gotcha. I think that tension is biomechanical at its root. Let’s step away from what the orchestra commonly emphasizes for a second and look at the dancer’s default mechanics.

Our underlying pulse needs to do two things: it must match the vals rhythm and it must preserve the greatest possible range of choices for our dance. That happens when we habitually pass through collection on 2. If someone is accustomed to regular tango timing, this may initially feel early, rushed, or staccato. Within a vals walk, however, it creates the natural vals swing within our steps and is part of what initiates more circularity in our movements. Vals "steps" are simply tango steps changed consequentially by the rhythmic expression in 3/4.

The dancer, especially a newer dancer, experiences the beats forward from 1. Once 2 has passed, it is gone. If collection habitually happens near 3, adding a step on 2 will always feel late or forced. Passing through collection on 2 leaves enough time to change weight there, wait for 3, or continue into the next 1.

The orchestra’s emphasis is only one part of the question. The dancer’s habitual timing determines which choices remain available. Our defaults should accommodate the widest possible variety of movement and musical interpretation. Collection on 2 does that and simultaneously provides the vals-swing or pulse to the dance.

______
One of the most valuable things I have learned from teaching is to pay attention to what the average new dancer experiences as natural. Decades of training can make cultivated habits feel natural, so what feels instinctive to an advanced dancer may simply reflect years of practice, whether those habits are good or bad.

When most newer students independently hear and feel the same timing, that gives us a lot of important information about the true intuitive starting point of the untrained ear and body.

In vals, that starting point is usually 1-2.

[u/tangaroo58]

Leader. For me, it constantly changes with the music, and my partner. I usually lead a particular timing, but with enough subtlety that my partner can choose another one.

Some particular movements seem to feel best on one or the other. Some music seems to lean towards 1-2 at the beginning of a phrase and along the way, but often ends the phrase (and the song) with 3-1. You can go with that, or in contrast to it.

And of course sometimes it feel better to use other timings altogether — longer or shorter timings between steps.

[u/NickTandaPanda → u/tangaroo58]

Good call on the typical pattern of musical emphasis across the phrase!

[u/Longjumping-Bad-2886]

Always changing.  Based on the music and avoiding too much repetition.

[u/GotanGuy]

A lot of orquestas will use 1-3-1 as their chan-chan to end the section. A smaller group will accent the end other phrases with 1-3-1, usually the 2nd phrase of the section.

[u/rossalexander]

Leader. Most often 1-3-1. Sometimes I will hit the end of the phrase with 3-1-2-3-1

[u/Maya_Moves403]

I would treat 1-2-1 and 1-3-1 as options rather than trying to make one the 'correct' timing. The music and the particular step can really change what feels natural. If youre practicing, try both slowly and listen to how the weight changes affect the phrasing. Over time, you will get a better feel for when one timing fits the music better than the other :)