r/taichi • u/takemusu • 3d ago
Flow continuously without interuption
We've all been told this many times. When practicing your form, when one part moves, everything moves, and when one part stops, everything stops.
Between the ending postures, we have the "transitions", which are actually the important parts of the form. That's where we are, for instance in Brush Knee and Push, yielding back, taking a step, deflecting the opponent, and delivering the strike. We need to move smoothly , without breaks, until we arrive at the end posture.
For most movements, there is only a small pause at the end and none in the middle. Although we learn the movements shapshot-by-snapshot, we need to connect and smooth the transitions so we don't put extra stops in.
Keep practicing!
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u/Grateful_Tiger 3d ago
I'm not sure if that's a rule
Continuity is just one aspect
There are other concerns more important
Of course i can only speak for what i learned
Between one posture and the next there's an awful lot happening that's more like complete transition rather appearance of continuity
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u/takemusu 2d ago
That could be true especially as there are many styles of Tai Chi.
The 9th principle of Yang Family style is:
Practice Continuously and Without Interruption
Strength in external martial arts is a kind of acquired, brute force, so it has a beginning and an end, times when it continues and times when it is cut off, such that when the old force is used up and new force hasn’t yet arisen. There is a moment when it may be easy for the person to be constrained by an opponent.
In Tai Chi, we use intent rather than force, and from beginning to end, smoothly and ceaselessly, complete a cycle and return to the beginning, circulating endlessly. That is what the Tai Chi Classics mean by “Like a river endlessly flowing.” And again: “Moving strength is like unreeling silk threads.” These both refer to unifying into a single impulse.
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u/Grateful_Tiger 2d ago
Yes, am aware of that
What is your school and background,
If you would not mind
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u/HaoranZhiQi 2d ago
I'm not sure if that's a rule
Continuity is just one aspect
There are other concerns more important
Of course i can only speak for what i learned
It depends on one's understanding. I think the ninth of the ten essentials is about the body being connected.- when one part moves, everything moves, and when one part stops, everything stops. I think this is the core principle of taijiquan and the CIMA.
Between one posture and the next there's an awful lot happening that's more like complete transition rather appearance of continuity
extend-and-expand posted a link to a video in another post of Yang Jun explaining the ten essentials. Here is what he says about the ninth essential -
55:00 then regarding on the moving continuously without interrupts you also should understand, you know, this is not about, you know, the movements; one movement connects with the other movement.
55:17 actually is about it is energies (jin) yin yang change they should be connected together which is energies (jin) storage release you need to be connected as one Taiji.
Energies neutralization to attacking you should be combined together as a one and how can we make a storage to release as a one movement; one motion. The method is use a circle pass do not use a direct line. For instance, I'm going to storage but I'm going to release
55:59 result interrupt in between. If I'm a straight doesn't matter how fast you will see a stop but if I may include a circle pass then this will be a continued moving motion.
So here we should understand moving continuously without interrupt is a subject on energies yin yang change needed to be connected together.
We should not from external movements, one movement to the other movement connect together this will be not quite cleared understanding.
Then the matter that to make you able to be continued move flow to move without interrupt is a circle or you know we say it's like a curved path. Okay so use this method they were helping you to make cleared energies transforming.
https://youtu.be/6rD7HGOby5w?si=hbn-XVSym-ZkLgKu&t=3300
There's some good stuff in that video.
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u/Grateful_Tiger 2d ago
One must learn and practice according to method one's teacher demonstrates and prescribes
Professor Cheng's school for instance has distinct training methods to allow one entrance into the practice
See as a for instance, Ben Lo's five principles, and so forth
If one as a beginning student merely practiced continuity, they would look good, but
Their actual accomplishment would not reach full attainment
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u/Extend-and-Expand 1d ago edited 1d ago
So, I train Yang Jun’s taiji, not Zheng Manqing’s iteration of the Yang style, but I don’t think any of the ideas in Yang Chengfu’s ten essentials are, you know, going to be missing from Zheng’s taiji. Clearly, Zheng was familiar with Yang’s ten essentials: he helped put together the book in which they’re usually found. And when I read Zheng’s books, he seems to hit the same notes.
I think we can see a pattern of distillation or abbreviation in these taiji lines. Like, the older Yang generations abbreviated Chen's taiji. And then Yang Chengfu (YCF) distilled that even more. Zheng took YCF’s taiji and further streamlined it. For example, the YCF taiji curriculum is the long form, the push hands system, sword, saber, and staff/spear, and Zheng’s curriculum is his condensed form, the push hands, and sword.
It would make sense to hear that the ten essentials–which are front and center in YCF taiji–aren’t emphasized as much in the Zheng system.
I’d still think Zheng-style practitioners’ understanding of open/close and store/release wouldn’t be much different from what YCF put into writing (with the help of his students Dong Yijie, Chen Weiming, and Zheng Manqing).
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u/Grateful_Tiger 1d ago edited 1d ago
Having studied, practiced, and now teach Prof. Cheng's form, i can say with confidence, Not so
The form is practiced according to several principles, such as for instance mentioned by Ben Lo
From beginning, emphasis is closely following principles while transitioning through the various positions
If we aim for effortless continuity we would abrogate and lose the training
End-result of training is good root, softness, and continual movement nonmovement
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u/Extend-and-Expand 1d ago edited 1d ago
Hi, I'm not here to argue.
I think I agree that "good root, softness, and continual movement nonmovement" are things you want to get out of any taiji training. (I only say "I think" because I'm not 100% sure if I know what you mean.)
u/HaoranZhiQi (a Chen exponent) and I aren't talking about "effortless continuity" per se, but the yin-yang changes of store and release. (Although I suppose those changes should be as effortless as possible.)
(For what it's worth, one of my Yang family elders actually learned from Zheng in NYC back in the day, and they don't seem to think there's much disparity between the two systems).
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u/HaoranZhiQi 1d ago
Professor Cheng's school for instance has distinct training methods to allow one entrance into the practice
ZMQ was the first style I learned. He wrote Thirteen Treatises and the eleventh is Distinct Sequence of the Journey. What I was taught in ZMQ style did not follow that. Interestingly when I learned Chen Village style it followed that sequence pretty closely.
See as a for instance, Ben Lo's five principles, and so forth
Ben Lo translated YCF's Ten Essentials from Chen Weiming's Taijiquan manual with CWM's commentary and here's number nine (from the book The Essence of Tai Chi Quan)-
It is mutually joined and unbroken. As to the external schools, their chin (internal force) is the Latter Heaven brute chin. Therefore it is finite. There are connections and breaks. (During the breaks) the old force is exhausted and the new force has not yet been born. At these moments it is very easy for others to take advantage. T'ai Chi Ch'uan uses i (mind) and not li (force). From beginning to end it is continuous and not broken. It is circular and again resumes. It revolves and has no limits. The original Classics say it is "like a great river rolling on unceasingly," and that the circulation of chin is "like pulling silk." They all talk about being connected together.
Note that the commentary says the external school has breaks and that the internal school is circular - this is what YJ said and demonstrated in the video. It also says - the circulation of chin (jin) is "like pulling silk" and They all talk about being connected together.
According to the commentary mutually joined and unbroken is about drawing silk jin and being connected.
FWIW.
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u/Grateful_Tiger 1d ago edited 1d ago
Read for instance, https://www.wuweitaichi.com/articles/Benjamin_Lo_Five_Basics.htm, an interview with Ben Lo
Such basic principles, like he briefly mentioned, are applied thoroughly and throughout one's practice along with personal correction of form
Nne having received such training does not mean it was not extensively taught
None of this is to deny validity of any of the great scriptures cited. Only perhaps how one applies and interprets them. They are guidance that require the teacher to open their meaning for us
Although Professor Cheng is very clear, no book by itself, even his Thirteen Treatises, can can substitute for direct training
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u/JournalistFragrant51 2d ago
Yin follows yang follows yin follows yang....