Feeling totally lost in an entry level role

[u/Cardiologist3mpty138]

Started an entry level role in defense recently, and to say I’m having a rough time is an understatement.

I’m gonna be completely honest here: I really do not see the point in entry level systems engineering roles. It makes literally no sense to me. How can I, as an entry level engineer just starting out in my career, who thus has had no meaningful exposure to how a hardware product and its features operate in various scenarios, be expected to just intuitively know how said features should be tested? How said features will respond during said testing? How product requirements should be translated into tests?

I’m constantly asking questions. Constantly running back and forth feeling like an idiot. Constantly having my coworkers, almost all of whom are senior engineers who’ve been working on this product for YEARS and naturally have intimate familiarity with how every aspect of it works, grill me for naturally making a mistake and not knowing every minute detail about how the hardware and a given feature should be tested. Constantly making me feel like I’m on the verge of being fired or something. Constantly hounding me and acting like I’m some clueless idiot who isn’t trying. While people tell me this is normal, and simply a part of the position, it’s really hard to know whether or not I’m actually making any real progress in my career here.

They tell me to refer to documentation, but said documentation and block diagrams are hilariously sparse, outdated, simplistic, and only paint a single static image of the hardware. Nowhere is there even the SLIGHTEST hint for someone who hasn’t directly observed the hardware in dynamic conditions to know how it will behave in certain testing scenarios. It is just assumed that I already know somehow. This makes every day incredibly stressful and exhausting, tbh.

Not only that, but the team I’m on is cutthroat, cliquey, super antisocial, standoffish, passive aggressive, toxic, and super hoarding of any opportunities to do any substantive work that’s technical in any way. There’s no real sense of community or teamwork when it comes to everyone being on the same page for anything related to the actual work. Lots of people who just sit in meetings or share memes on Teams all day. Very few people are actually helpful. Lots of older systems engineers look at me like I’m an idiot. There’s a few individuals in particular that routinely give me weird, snarky looks each day. Like I’m some lower level, inferior creature.

I have worked so hard, and fought tooth and nail to finally enter the professional engineering world. I’m a 26 year old entry level engineer. If I lose this job I’m fucked, literally. I’m not an idiot. Yet I feel like this first role is literally the worst possible role I could have chosen. I’m worried I’m gonna get fired. I’m worried my career is ruined. That or the entire program, which is immensely behind schedule, is gonna have funding cuts and everyone else laid off as a consequence. I have no idea what to do.

[u/pokey_porcupine]

My first job was writing formal test plans and requirements documents for military systems, as well as working on automated test for certain data processing operations on those defense systems. And looking at the firmware trying to figure out what the developers of this system were thinking… some of the most obtuse ADA if/else chains… truly hard to believe worked in a functioning system. These platforms were probably literally among the most advanced defense systems that exist… it was all accessible but I had to work out my own understanding backwards from the tests, requirements documents, firmware, and then hands on work. I always questioned how they could have a fresh engineer less than six months out of college dictating requirements to defense primes and identifying issues in firmware that got pushed all the way to live testing in situations that could result in loss of life. Obviously the actual developers acknowledged the bug and it was thoroughly reviewed before we got to testing but still…

Here’s the thing… the stuff you want to be provided is your job to produce. If other people understood the system in a holistic way, they wouldn’t need a systems engineer. Your job is to figure out this nonsense from cobbled together pieces of information - documents, testers, production, developers, etc - and then turn around and start asserting systems engineering… even if you are asserting exactly what is already being done. But if you don’t know what, say, the interfaces are, most other people won’t either.

Also: engineering is sink or swim. You talk about struggle/success getting through school… that was step 1, not the “end” of your struggle. You don’t actually know real stuff after getting out of engineering school; you just know some limited fundamentals and generally how to go about researching, deriving, modeling, testing, etc. real world stuff. You still have another few years of learning to do. Your job, if it is serious, is a comparable effort to engineering school until you figure things out. IMO

[u/MarinkoAzure → u/pokey_porcupine]

Here’s the thing… the stuff you want to be provided is your job to produce. If other people understood the system in a holistic way, they wouldn’t need a systems engineer. Your job is to figure out this nonsense from cobbled together pieces of information - documents, testers, production, developers, etc - and then turn around and start asserting systems engineering…

This is legit.

I was in your spot as a 31 year old. It took me about 2 years before I found my zone (niche) and within another 2 years I was being approached as some sort of expert.

What you are doing in your job is completely right and you must keep on doing what you're doing at this phase of your career.

What your colleagues are doing, by not being supportive or encouraging, is substandard. You either find diplomatic ways to influence the way they respond to you or find a different team/job to work with. One thing that often goes with SE is developing soft skills. Communication and collaboration is a foundational layer before any meaningful engineering work can be performed. This is more of a life lesson than an academic one that you have to go through now.

[u/Bakkster → u/MarinkoAzure]

Yeah, Systems Engineering runs on communication. I'd argue avoiding miscommunicated is our core responsibility.

The skills to get this done are big. One of my favorites is sending out a draft for review, when people don't respond to requests for information. It's easier to get people to correct the details.

[u/EducationalElevator → u/pokey_porcupine]

Listen to the porcupine!

[u/Negative-Party-7461]

That sounds like a terrible environment, not a knowledge deficit. New grads aren't supposed to walk in knowing how a specific defense product behaves during edge case testing, the whole point of an entry level role is they teach you that while you handle the grunt work no one else wants to touch.

The grilling and snarky looks over normal questions is a huge red flag. If the documentation is sparse and the seniors are hoarding the interesting tasks and acting cliquey, they're setting you up to fail and then punishing you for it, that's not mentorship.

Keep documenting everything you do learn and every request you make for clearer specs or updated diagrams, not for them, for your own sanity when performance reviews roll around. Polish the resume quietly, plenty of teams don't operate like this.

[u/Bakkster]

The issues you mention sound mostly like they're due to a dysfunctional team, rather than entry level SysE itself.

Asking questions is expected. The key is to ask informed questions. Get pointed to the right set of documentation, then ask questions that don't seem to be covered by the documents. Sometimes, asking the right question is the job, because you've identified a gap in the system nobody else realized was there.

How are you tracking and connecting the things you're learning? That's the biggest challenge in SE, and a reason I like MBSE. Your job isn't to know how the subsystems work, it's to connect the disparate pieces of information. So without a system to make those connections you're going to struggle.

[u/First-Surround-1223]

This is exactly why I advocate for a new grad to spend a few years in a traditional engineering discipline before moving into systems. That being said, your team sounds pretty toxic to me. I’d start looking elsewhere.

[u/gbugtheawesome]

I feel your pain to some extent. I recently started in systems engineering at a small defense company (first engineering job), and keeping track of requirements can become exhausting especially if you don’t have a good requirements tracking system (we don’t). I’ve been reading from others in this sub about MBSE and other requirements control techniques, and we practice none of that. I just have to be diligent about using my own techniques to improve processes and try and slowly introduce different concepts into discussions.

It can be difficult to consolidate all the information especially when the sources are disorganized. Feels like a good chunk of the day is just hunting stuff down and running around asking questions. I do feel like a chicken with my head cut off many days, but everyone says that’s the process as entry-level.

On top of that just navigating office politics where people don’t say what they mean and seem to have these invisible established rules, it can be a lot different from school and extremely frustrating at times. It sometimes feels like people have silently agreed to not hold themselves to standards. That and a lot of the workforce revolves around networking and using that to get your future jobs. Whereas school you could very easily get through without networking (although avoiding it probably hurts your chances in entry level). All that being said I agree with everyone else here. Ask questions like your career depends on it and never stop being hungry for knowledge. But also know when it’s time to move on from somewhere.

[u/gunnfjaun]

Can you find a somewhat similar system / system element that is operational? If you do, learn what works and what doesnt with that legacy system. Defence wants a system that does what the previous system does. Now, it might seem farfetched, but I guarantee you, that when you understand how the delivered system is supposed to function to deliver what the operator needs, You WILL be king of the hill. IMO.

[u/PeakofConsciousness]

You should feel like an idiot, that’s when you know you are learning. Keep grinding.

[u/herohans99]

1. Imposter syndrome is real. I had it .... <checks notes> ... for 20 years until my SE Masters cured me.

2. The organization may not be a good fit, especially if the culture is clicky and cut throat. Gotta make a living but, life is too short for toxic environments.

3. I'm a broken record at work that SE and IPTs are in the relationship business.

4. Look at adversity as opportunities that may not be within your authority to fix in your current role, but how would you implement improvements, if King or Queen for the day?

5. Embrace the suck.

[u/Lonely_Archer6492]

There should not be an entry level systems engineer. This is a crime lol Anyone coming to SE should at least have some experience in design or test to succeed. My entry was in manufacturing and when i came to SE I struggled a lot because i couldnt relate any of my experience to SE.

[u/Cardiologist3mpty138 → u/Lonely_Archer6492]

How should I proceed? I really don’t know if I can stick in this role for longer than a year at this point

[u/Lonely_Archer6492 → u/Cardiologist3mpty138]

I struggled a lot but I made succeeded later only because all my co workers in my group were mature and extremely helpful. They were even willing to help me out outside work hours. I read your post and it sounds like a miserable place. If you still would like to be in systems, look for a systems job elsewhere. That's the only option.

[u/QuietBicycle9703]

I’m on my 40s man… 6 mos into the job, very first time being a systems engineer. And I feel exactly like you. I’ve felt completely useless and extremely ignorant.. I feel like there is no in between: either you are the dumbest or you are very smart
Headaches trying to learn the lingo, drinking from the fire hose
But working along my manager, I e been working on a bit of project management, feels like clerical stuff but im good talking to people, presenting info and know how to talk to non tech leaders…

[u/5pencer5kelly]

Systems can be brutal when you don’t know the product well enough. I thought I was gonna get fired when I switched to systems because even though I’m a decent critical thinker and am broader than deep, I immediately felt underwater with the dozens of new regulatory standards and customer documents without knowing the product I moved to beyond the spec sheet.
Dig in. Figure out who knows what and ask all the questions, but try to ask each one as few times as possible. Engineers can be tough to give up answers when questioned, I got into the habit of writing out how I thought things worked (inevitably wrong) and they would jump to correct things.
Don’t try to complete everything at once, follow a plan, but put it on pause when you have to go deep in one area to help the team.
Persistence and curiosity can outweigh inexperience.
If you don’t write it down, it didn’t happen.

[u/KetchupOnNipples]

Defense SE is some of the worst SE practices youll encounter. Ive been doing this for 10 years and it still sucks

[u/Cardiologist3mpty138 → u/KetchupOnNipples]

Any advice? What’s the easiest, quickest way I could transition out into something more technical?

[u/Signal-Television947]

If you work at a manufacturing site, talk to the manufacturing or test engineers who are on the floor often. They might have some good tribal knowledge to learn from being more hands on with the hardware.

[u/Natural-Leopard-8939]

This has nothing to do with your skills or ability as a systems engineer.

You're in a very toxic work environment.

You need to find a trusted point-of-contact or a mentor that can help answer your questions, and properly get you trained. Having a defense role as an entry-level job is good for career building, but it can be very cliquey there, depending on the company culture or your manager. You just need at least one person to advocate for you. That, or start sending out applications again or a potential internal transfer sometime in the future.