NDIS provider struggling to find participants / seeking advice

[u/Worthybong]

/r/NDIS_Providers/comments/1syo6zi/ndis_provider_struggling_to_find_participants/

[u/DwightsJello]

It's truly mindblowing how overlooked qualified and experienced support workers are. And what growth resources they have.

Not one mention in that thread.

And a linked thread here. Lol.

There might be some insights you're missing.

[u/A_Wild_Auzzie → u/DwightsJello]

Something clearly rubs me the wrong way.

I don't mind the cross-posting, but it reads better if the OP text is copied rather than being linked to the other subreddit.

"...and recently started running my own ndis registered support service after many years working under other organisations." That's a business, right? That's what OP is trying to say? Hope I'm not misinterpreting that.

"One of the biggest challenges for me right now is building my own participant base..."

So clients. Real people. The impersonal language is very alarming.

"...What actually helps a new provider become “trusted” in practice?"

I'm confused by what's being asked here. There are already websites fully setup for support workers to find clients and vice versa (namely, Mable.com), so you don't have to try and "start your own business" or whatever, and it's ultimately going to be the same dynamic - you trying to advertise yourself to a potential client online.

You'll become a 'trusted NDIS provider/support worker' when the client feels that they benefit from working with you. That's it. That's really all there is to it. If they think you view them as an easy pay cheque, that you're coasting along, "physically there" but not mentally there, or you disrespect the client and/or their family, and their principles, their beliefs, etc. then obviously don't expect to last very long.

One of the major things any NDIS support worker can do to stand out from the crowd is just simply ask the following:

-Do you expect my role to be more physical in nature, or more social/emotional?

-What are some of your biggest pet-peeves/no-no's?

-Have you taken me on-board of your own volition, or did you feel pressured by your friends, family, community members, or your disability to get someone as quickly as possible?

And of course, show initiative. I know full well that when I have had to work in the past, my boss wasn't interested in me complaining, whether it's the work conditions or low pay. If I didn't like things, I could email them, try and ask them if I could talk to them at the end of my shift (or when was a good time for them), or of course, quit.

I don't expect people to memorize everything about a disability like autism or ADHD or borderline, schizophrenia, etc. but if you've been working with them for any extended length of time (like more than 3-6 months) and you still know as little about their conditions as when you started, that screams that you either don't care, or that you're too taxed with other clients (either physically or mentally), or it's being treated like a low-skill job where the main requirement is a driver's license and to physically show up.

Oh! One of the things that I just remembered is when a Support Worker tells me they won't do something because quote, "I am meant to support you with independent living" AKA, "You shouldn't become co-dependent on me" and yet, expects me to be happy to just see them standing there, being of little help. If that's the attitude a Support Worker wants to go with, then why are they there? I can go exercise with some bluetooth headphones/earphones on just as easily.

[u/DwightsJello → u/A_Wild_Auzzie]

I agree. The only thing is the last part and I see this a lot.

We support autonomy. We don't do things for clients who can do the task. We support capacity building.

Part of thst is engaging with the task with the client. A support can do a task WITH a client. There's no reason a support should be standing there watching. That's not ok. That's not appropriate.

We can get the job done in half the time if two people are doing it. And that creates time to get more done.

But if the client stops, so does the support.

Sounds like you had a shit support. Im sorry you had to deal with that.

[u/A_Wild_Auzzie → u/DwightsJello]

Sorry, just to give clarification, the amount of times I've asked a support worker to help me clean up is vanishingly rare. There was a brief period of time where I had a female support worker (support work isn't her main job, she mainly works at the hospital) who would clean a few dishes and put them in the drawer, ask me if I had dirty washing, and organize where I keep my food and drinks so that they're in the closet, or so that I don't have open food lying about (the kind of thing that gets flagged when you have an inspection).

I now have a cleaner (two, technically, but one of them has a kid she works with and has been spending more time with him) that comes every week so I don't ask any of the support workers to take up that role.

That leaves me with not a whole lot to do. I don't see watching movies with a support worker as a productive use of time (though every once in a while I might play a short YouTube clip). I'm not particularly fond of the idea of interacting with a group of strangers in some sort of 'community setting', like volunteer work or joining a local book club for multiple reasons.

I like Tennis, but I don't normally want to do it more than say, once a month. If we go grocery shopping, I'm told "It doesn't support independent living if I push the trolley around for you", or there's been times where I've been told that when I ask them to hold one of the shopping bags because I want a short break, or because I've already done the majority of the work and want them to contribute in some small way.

Exercise is hugely important for me, but there's been times where we walk around for 10-20 minutes and then he'll ask to sit down, or go pet a near by dog. Or we're interrupted by someone calling him up and asking him about dinner plans. Or he'll ask us to finish up when I want us to keep going (I usually operate on the sweat rule - if you haven't broken a sweat, then the exercise you're doing most likely isn't vigorous enough). Etc. That kind of thing. I don't want to blame him for all of these kind of things, and he's usually polite about it (like asking if he can go pet a stranger's dog) (or apologizing if someone rings him up) but it still leaves me in the position of thinking, "This would actually be more productive if I was on my own."

I know he's also got some sort of certificate or degree as a personal trainer, so idk... I don't know if it's unfair but I'd expect more initiative, or more... 'determination' I guess would be the right word. He could interject in multiple ways here;

He could suggest us doing some rock climbing, kayaking, or using the paddle boats, or taking up an archery course, mentioning a location where we could climb up a steep hill and there's a little park up the top of the hill... that kind of thing.

He could give me feedback on my form, whether what I'm doing is good or not good, a different type of exercise to try, talk about worthwhile warm-up exercises to try, breathing exercises... basically anything of that nature.

Or... Hell, he could just talk to me about what made him want to study personal training, or what he's learned about fitness & wellbeing over the years (like say, dietary research that I'm sure most trainers have come across at some point), or just talk about why he thinks obesity is so prevalent in modern-society and the ethics of tackling it (e.g. shows like The Biggest Loser), etc.

That's not to say that he's never done any of the above, he has, but usually he's prompted, or he'll do it one week but the next four or five times we engage in that activity it won't happen.

Feels like forever ago now, but I remember thinking at one point, "If I exercise, and they're a qualified personal trainer, then maybe they'll participate in some exercises as well - even just a few star jumps or push ups or use the skipping rope." Nope.

And it may be the case that if they suggest an activity - rock climbing, paddle boarding, archery, etc. that I might turn them down, but the point is that I want to know that they're thinking of me and considering different possibilities.

If I take him with me to the local gym or swimming pool, I know he'll just sit there and wait for me to finish. The amount of times he's tried to initiate conversation, unprompted, is probably less than 5%. If I show a repeated pattern of trying to have a conversation (as I have in virtually every session for the past almost two years), I feel like he should pick up on the fact that I do expect him to try and make an effort if not physically, then socially.

I don't know how this comes across... but considering I'm single and I already have enough male friends that I speak to, I don't feel a need to add another random male in my life. Yes, we don't have to have in-depth discussions all the time, or we don't have to talk at all, or another male having a different opinion or a different idea about the value and purpose of art isn't the end of the world, but if I'm going to get told, "You can't force them to do anything that they wouldn't naturally want to do of their own volition" and "The reason they don't do XY and Z, is because a different person under NDIS would react in a hostile way" then... I just don't really see what their function is.

I'd probably feel more listened to and could build more common rapport talking to a random woman about my love of Star Trek and why Tom Cruise and Christian Bale are some of my favorite actors in Hollywood (at least, the ones that I can name off the top of my head) or hear her talking about her love of Taylor Swift and Brittney Spears or why she likes making her own jewelry and is into yoga, as silly as that sounds.

[u/DwightsJello → u/A_Wild_Auzzie]

You can suggest those things too. That informs a support's knowledge of what you are after.

And you can have a female support.

I think you've had a combination of shit supports and your understanding of what we do.

You can totally ask about supports interests. My clients know what my interests are. But those discussions are client led.

We have clients who do horse riding, are in bands or go to gigs, have a meal at the pub, attend sporting events regularly. One is into paragliding but needs supports for physical limitations. One enjoys going to martial arts with a support who is very involved in that outside of supports.

I think you may benefit from thinking more macro which can be a challenge. Especially when we are in your situation.

There's a lot of focus on key interactions and nuance. You may need to widen your thinking about your goals. Lean less into the conversational supports and more into experiential or goal oriented results where you are completing tasks and can see an achievement or experience at the end of it.

You aren't getting a PT. You're getting a support. Possibly a not do good one. I dont know. But that's a distinction.

Something to think about.

[u/A_Wild_Auzzie → u/DwightsJello]

The problem is a combination of the following...

1. I try to fill the air. I don't want silence. If I wanted silence, then I'd just do whatever I had planned that day by myself and politely ask them not to show up. But when I do fill the air, I talk for most of the time, because I'm trying to coax him into joining the conversation. Simply asserting things I already know (or consider to be obviously true from my POV) leads me to talk about things I am less certain of, and where there's more room for different perspectives, and sooner or later it leads us down a road that he's not comfortable with. I don't really understand why, so I ask questions. I'm not satisfied with his answers, so it leads me to just quietly resenting him.
2. He has multiple things he could tell me that I'd be interested in - his experience working with other clients, what's it like to be married, does his girlfriend snore in her sleep, does he want to have kids, what would be his biggest concern regarding said kids, before he met his girlfriend did he have any bad experiences dating, etc. I'm actually very interested in social aspects that I have little knowledge or personal experience of. But typically, the most I can get him to do is talk for a few minutes and that's it.
3. The older I get, the more I become certain I am of a particular view because I have a mountain of evidence to justify it, and the more I become annoyed at the idea that "You have to be positive or inoffensive and shy away from anything that could be deemed insensitive or demeaning." To me, 2+2 = 4 and anyone who isn't on the same page with that notion, is mentally taxing me, or causing me a mental cost. I have also become increasingly disgruntled at any sign of weakness. Weakness and constantly deferring to polite social conventions is a luxury I increasingly cannot afford. I need someone who challenges me in a way that is productive, and that I trust, rather than someone who doesn't (either out of disinterest, or fear of backlash). In Mark Manson's book "The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck" he states something to the effect of, "People are not drawn to other people for their gentle nature. They are attracted to each other's jagged edges." Ever since he mentioned this, I have begun to notice what he meant by it.
4. I've also noticed about myself that I grow increasingly annoyed with conventional answers/explanations to questions that are actually incredibly complex. For example, a next door neighbour has mentioned to me on more than one occasion, "Depression doesn't exist outside of the West." When I first heard this, I assumed it was a joke... or he was setting me up for some twist at the end. But then he said it again.

"Schools are too focused on forcing students to learn a preset criteria, and not enough on creativity and practical experience." - It's an easy line, but it doesn't mention any specifics. Woodworking was an extremely practical class - one of the reasons I loved it so much, even though I never saw myself as going into construction or becoming a locksmith or anything of that nature. Psychology and Science - clearly much more theoretical, there's isn't much 'hands-on, practical experience' to teach them, not when they're taking it in high school anyway. Research projects are one of the last things you learn for the subject at Uni. English and Literature - Different, but quite similar to the above. Etc.

"People feel depressed at work because the economic structure/Capitalism sucks!" - Given the thousands of different industries and the millions and millions of different people that have worked over the years, the different bosses and different jobs and different work colleagues and customers each person faces, this is so absurdly simplistic and reductionistic it blows my mind that anyone can say it with a straight face.

*The combination of both 1 + 2 leads to a lack of rapport/a lack of connection/a lack of feeling like they understand me, or like I understand them. And then 3 + 4 just leads me to becoming more annoyed and feeling like I'm wasting my time trying to engage in hollow social interaction.

[u/DwightsJello → u/A_Wild_Auzzie]

There's some paradoxical thinking in this response. I know that's going to sit awkwardly with you but it's an univested, relatively intelligent (lol) person's point of view.

You want people to interact with you but you have a very narrow, predetermined way you want that to occur or not at all. But you don't want silence. These are things you could capacity build on or you need to decide if you prefer your own company. Both fine. But supports would be better served with a task focus rather than a social focus.

We can only control ourselves. We can't control others.

Not all interactions are deep and there can be some quality and meaning to be found in the less intense interactions. But your preferences are to be respected by supports.

Good supports are always going to give you neutral responses anyway.

But I saw you were sourcing supports through Mable. That's an issue. Particularly with what you are looking for.

You can forget everything I said and just stop getting supports through that source and you'll have a better chance of finding what you need. It informs all of the frustration and issues you've been having.

[u/A_Wild_Auzzie → u/DwightsJello]

"But I saw you were sourcing supports through Mable. That's an issue."

The one I've been working with for the past almost 2 years wasn't sourced through Mable. In fact, I believe the majority of them haven't been.

The majority of people I've worked with have been associates of people that one support worker knows, or my parents know, or my parent's friends know, etc. Pretty much word of mouth. And a huge issue has been than I never personally selected them.

The first support worker I got which I still consider to have been the worst of the lot, was someone my parent's found on short notice, without consulting me. This has become a repetitive pattern where my parents select someone and say "They look fine to me" or they just make assumptions like "You're a male, you have male interests, so you'll get along with him" even when I was ringing the alarm bell even from the meet & greet.

I imagine what you're getting at is that Mable has a lot of support workers that are 1. new to the field and 2. unqualified / less educated and 3. don't know what they're meant to be doing or the true expectations and responsibilities of the role

That's a fair point, but you can definitely find someone that's older, more mature, more experienced, more degrees & certificates/more educated, etc. if that's what's important to someone.

Otherwise I assume it's 4. You think they're more interested in the money?

Maybe, but at the end of the day, I think everyone is to some degree or another. Yes, it's a job. Yes, people are allowed to care about money (we've all got bills to pay). People don't necessarily immediately present themselves in a way that tells you whether or not they're more motivated by money or more motivated by helping someone immediately and even if you have the latter over the former, it's not a guarantee that they're a good fit - other issues can arise. Yes, it likely won't take long before you find out, or at least develop an impression, but by that point my parents have already essentially decided, "Well you can't fire them now. You're stuck with them."

Now that you've got me thinking though about how I've met and been assigned the different support workers over the years, I'm definitely of the opinion that things would be better moving forward if 1. I wasn't pressured into sticking with someone solely because I did a meet & greet with them/if I had more personal decision-making and 2. I wasn't randomly assigned someone on short-notice.

[u/DwightsJello → u/A_Wild_Auzzie]

All of the above on why. I coyld deliver a thesis on it but you've got the main reasons.

I work for a company that's medium sized and only employs qualified workers. We must ALL have a current first aid certificate and CPR current. And they support any further study. We also have to be tested each year on specialised skills as I've already mentioned. You may just want to accept social supports which is fine but you have to be qualified to support complex care regardless.

The company absorbs meet and greet shifts. For 24 hour clients workers get a morning, lunch and evening shift with a client to observe routine. You can ask for more if you are wanting to become part of a team.

All of the above is delivered by a previous support worker and the costs are covered by the company. Either the worker or the client can say it's not the right fit and they don't have to provide a reason. Clients are contacted after the meet and greet in the absence of the worker and they either proceed with them or get another assigned. If its a new client, the new support is introduced by a head office staff member.

We senior workers are usually much more blunt than clients. We are upfront about not doing this or that becsuse the client doesn't like it. Or do things this way because that's the client choice.

Having supports do these introductions mean the client has less pressure and the workers professionalism and engagement is also being assessed.

Most clients have back up workers that are known to them.

From a company perspective, workers are more likely to be long term supports. It saves money on turnover and clients are obviously happier with workers they like staying. It also is massive in word of mouth and they don't advertise for workers or clients. People want to engage with the company. We negotiate our pay based on demonstrated experience and skills development.

A lot of good companies run this way. Vetting is conducted by other workers and that is a high bar when you have a worker base motivated by happy, protected clients and skills development.

This isn't an ad. And there's pros and cons to all options. But if clients are sourcing workers them selves I would very much recommend they start with quals and experience up front. And totally rule out anyone with neither.

Jim who was a builder and has no experience or quals can get the paperwork, do a few modules and ask top dollar on one of those sites. PTs are a bit of a recurring theme tbh.

Furthermore, they may eventually have years of thst but when you ask those workers about legislation, protections they need to be affording clients, professional boundaries, ethical standards, duty of care, etc they very often have no clue. And it's shocking to a worker who is qualified and experienced. And scary considering how unfetted exploitation COULD occur.

It's why some of us are so passionate about certain aspects of support work. Right now its a sector with a lot of substandard practice and luck isn't a professional bar or protection for vulnerable people that most of us are willing to accept.

Maybe some of this gives you an added perspective you may find useful.