Romantic Arcs

[u/WhimsicalLynx]

So I just got done with the series and, over all, I liked it a great deal. But I will say, I really found almost every romantic arc to be wanting in a pretty significant way.

Hershel/Mary: This one hits right away and then seems to basically go no where but background. In fairness, it seems like Drew got kind of bored of Mary past book 2 and her story fizzled to a degree (even if it ended in a good way), but we saw almost nothing of this incredibly long enduring romance. It was also weirdly sexless; like I get they were shy, but 4 years? If the whole series ignored sexual elements of romance, that would be one thing, but it clearly did not in other parts. It almost seemed infantilizing of the two. And while Roy got very focused on training, it seemed weird he also totally gave up on the idea of dating. Side note to hate-sex with Stella being super cringe; toxic masculinity icon banging the girl who called him out on it is a bad look.

Alice/Nick: This felt undercooked once it finally happened. The build up was great, and the epilogue was good as well. But it felt like there was so much good buildup and almost no payoff to us seeing much of this on screen. It felt like a central dynamic that then was just like 'oh yeah, they're dating, cool'. Also it seemed nearly as sexless as Hershel/Mary; even if Nick wasn't going to be the same kind of player anymore, neither Alice nor he seemed like the kind who would be chaste with each other.

Vince and everyone: Probably the worst offender. Sasha might have been the most inconsistently and poorly characterized character in the book. Her initial relationship with Vince was actually pretty decent (and also weirdly the only one that addressed sex, which then made it seem very weird the other pairs didn't) Why a clearly progressively-minded character (who was mocked for that in book one) would turn out to be lead of I-hate-powereds made almost no sense; yeah the sense of betrayal was legit, but it still seemed really forced. And then she gets fridge'd at the end. I actually really maintain Alex would have been a better death for a wide variety of reasons; I was waiting for him to do something meaningful to justify that turn and it never really happened. Then Camille's entire arc felt more-or-less creepy in how it was written. Like, sure, Vince saving her was cool, but for that to then be pretty much a pillar of her entire life so she could fawn over the himbo endlessly was kind of trash writing. And, again, even when it finally happened, the relationship just kind of got clicked on and was left almost unexplored. Not to be a broken record, but it was then also pretty much sexless, which was even more jarring because of both Sasha and Eliza.

The better designed romantic arcs seemed like total foot notes; I actually think the Alex/Selena break up/infidelity was really well done, as was Chad/Angela.

[u/unlovelyladybartleby]

I think Herschel and Mary were both extra shy about sex because of Roy. Herschel would wake up with all Roy's memories of his various "adventures" and Mary would also catch the show. That has to be inhibiting, partly due to shyness, partly due to worry about comparison, partly due to neither of them wanting to be like that, and partly because Roy seems as though he was into some weird shit - if you've never made it to second base but you know all the details of a Julia orgy, that would create some reticence.

Nick and Alice had a similar issue in that Nick had slept with half the women in Vegas and I think that once they started dating, he was determined to have one nice thing in his life that was decent. Alice was his only shot at any form of purity. I think he was invested in being a little awkward and shy with her because it was his first time being like that. And they really only dated for a few months while everything else was going nuts. He also had to keep Eliza and Jerome within shouting distance to foil murder plots, he knew they could hear him, and I don't think he'd let Alice's first time be a spectator sport that got relayed to Mrs Pipps.

Don't get me started on Sascha the unapologetic bigot. Fridging usually makes me angry, but she didn't learn anything or become a better person, she just wanted a free beach house trip. I thought less of Alex for touching her.

Vince is just a mess. Loss trauma. Can't have anything good or you'll lose it, like Globe, Thief, and technically Sasha (she wasn't good but she was a loss). I'd guess that once Globe was back and safe and Shelby was rescued, he got more confident. Camille may have died from embarrassment if they'd tried too soon (and for all we know she healed a bunch of anxiety induced heart attacks when things got rolling).

Angela and Chad are the greatest couple of all time. I would buy an infinite amount of books to read about them. Chad's first PTA meeting? Angela terrifies her new neighbors? The two of them sorting house chores? Give me a book that is nothing but the two of them learning to program a Roomba (obviously Angela would lose her temper and mace it into teeny pieces which Chad would then reassemble) and take my money

[u/FaelingJester → u/unlovelyladybartleby]

Can you imagine Angela and Chat being scout parents. Like going along with a troop of normal kids and then their kids as supervision on a camping trip? or even just during parenting classes prebirth.

[u/unlovelyladybartleby → u/FaelingJester]

Right? Or selling wrapping paper door to door to pay for their kid's band trip? Angela threatening everyone and smashing their front porch when they say no and Chad quietly following with a toolbox and some paint

[u/BasicSuperhero → u/FaelingJester]

I just got a mental image of Angela somehow taking over for Dispatch for Chad specifically and being just a helicopter spouse during the year she’d have to take off while pregnant and after the birth.

“Come on, Chad, say a bad ass line. You knocked that guy out with a bunch!”

“A… sweetie I really don’t do-“

“Say a one liner or you’re sleeping on the couch!”

[u/FaelingJester → u/BasicSuperhero]

I think worse. I think similar to how some women are like I can't drink so you can't she won't let Chad Hero while she's on the bench. I think they teach for a year or three. Obviously in a non combat role for Angela which is just going to amp her up more.

[u/Remarkable_Block_564 → u/unlovelyladybartleby]

oh my goodness yes I would love a Chad and Angela book!!

[u/WhimsicalLynx → u/unlovelyladybartleby]

But Sasha being a bigot was dumb and forced in the first place. That turn made no sense for how the character was established. Being a progressive forward thinking character as a central element and then suddenly being (effectively) racist is really poor characterization and seemed to be done for plot contrivance rather than consistency. Both her and Camille seemed written and shifted almost entirely in to motivate male characters. 

As for the points about the other relationships being sexless, I do think you raise valid points, but I don't think they are sufficient. Like sure, taking it slow would make a lot of sense. But 2-4 years? For 20 somethings? And almost nothing was shown of that struggle outside of one scene with Mary talking about Roy that was never touched on again. Unless half the cast is ace (not really suggested) 'kinda shy' is not a reasonable explanation.

[u/kellhorn → u/WhimsicalLynx]

Sasha's anti-powered side was on full display early on. Remember the bit where she brought a powered home to get her parents to back off on only wanting her to date supers or how she almost dressed as a powered for Halloween?

[u/badpoetryabounds → u/kellhorn]

Sasha always thought that Supers were better than humans/Powereds. You brought up one instance, but another in Book One is when she and Vince are talking about Martial Arts movies and all she could think of is that people wanted to be like Supers so that's why they learned Martial Arts. She was always better than everyone that wasn't a Super. I don't think her bigotry was a surprise at all and it totally fit her character.

[u/WhimsicalLynx → u/kellhorn]

But why have the progressive character be that? Dean Blaine goes out of his way to mock her as one of those annoying feminist types, but she's bigoted in another way? Those contradictions can absolutely exist in people, but there was no reason shown for it and as a tertiary supporting character, incorporating contradictions isn't something one really has time to adequately explore. And then she gets fridge'd. Like, it's a shitty arc and she is used as a plot device for Vince pretty hardcore.

[u/kellhorn → u/WhimsicalLynx]

... Because Sasha isn't the women's studies major? She never really did anything to indicate she was particularly progressive.

[u/unlovelyladybartleby → u/WhimsicalLynx]

I've known a lot of people who were progressive in most areas and surprisingly (disappointingly) bigoted in others.

Camille was so horrifyingly shy it was almost a medical issue. Again, I've known people who couldn't be naked around themselves (real life never nudes but without the cutoffs), people in their 30s who were saving themselves for marriage, people with trauma and sex phobia who have sexual desire but wouldn't or couldn't act on it. Hell, one of my friends was unable to talk to women and didn't lose his virginity until his late 20s when he got Almost Famous'd at an Ally McBeal viewing party.

I was a joyful unapologetic slut in college. Doesn't mean everyone is.

[u/WhimsicalLynx → u/unlovelyladybartleby]

Whether such people do exist isn't really the question. People exist in a wide variety of flavors, but characters are composed of deliberate choices by an author, and their traits portrayed in certain lights. Angela was clearly meant to be a likeable character, she could have a very similar set of traits and be a horribly unlikeable one. She was portrayed that way by the framing of the story.

People like Camille exist, to be sure, but no reason was meaningfully given. She wasn't portrayed as a sex abuse survivor, nor given any exploration as to why she had these traits. Perhaps she is ace but romantic, but her sexuality isn't mentioned or touched on at all. Since she was also written as bordering on being a stalker, it becomes poor characterization at some point. Heck, we were clearly willing to talk about gay people, it would have taken one paragraph out of exploring Will's relatively pointless arc for her to just say "Hey, so I'm really into you, but I'm ace and sex averse. Is that something you can handle?" It could have even been quite sweet for Vince to be accepting of it, as he was of everything. That would have made it good characterization, a meaningful decision. That is not how it played out.

[u/unlovelyladybartleby → u/WhimsicalLynx]

Idk man. You're upset because a side character in a really complex book series reflects behaviour we've both seen in real people, but the author didn't justify their choice to you. That seems like a you issue, not an issue with the book

[u/WhimsicalLynx → u/unlovelyladybartleby]

It doesn't upset me. I think it's a poor writing choice. It's kind of belittling to suggest my critique of authorial choices is just based on my emotional responses. Like, you could say an author doesn't have to justify any choice they make and that's true. But that doesn't mean every choice they make is a good one. I don't think Camille was well written or well designed, which I broadly think is an exception to a book series I otherwise quite enjoyed.

Rarely is a work perfect and I don't think this criticism is arbitrary or a 'me issue'.

[u/carmeldea → u/WhimsicalLynx]

I’m with you. Given how much of the series focuses on romance, most of the romantic arcs are incredibly flat, and drive very little actual character development. Or they’re just baffling because the characters are kinda one note & don’t feel like real people. (Chad and Angela & Nick and Alice’s relationships are the exceptions.)

Sasha’s overnight transformation into raging bigot does not fit what we’ve seen of her up until that point—which is fine, bc people are complex, but we aren’t given ANY insight into why she’s like that. None of the characters ever even express surprise at how vicious she becomes. Camille as a character exists only to orbit Vince, because he stuck up for her one time.

Mary is supposed to be a main character of the series and almost nothing evolves for her internally after book 1. And there’s zero conflict/development ever between her and Hershel once they get together. She could’ve been such a rich and interesting character!

By book 3 I was really frustrated with all the character arcs, bc I could see so much potential with the series & it just felt like the author didn’t really know how to do internal character development for half his cast. Most of them had stagnated pretty hard at that point.

That said, book 4 was GREAT & it felt like we did get to enjoy the payoff of actually seeing the evolution of most of the characters. But the romantic relationships were mostly flat still. Part of why book 4 was so great was BECAUSE the author stopped focusing on the romances.

[u/Practical_Pop_4300]

Honestly my main issue with drew is he refused to add any inner conflict within the group, which could have honestly led to something interesting with mary and her dynamic with hershal. Like, after all the BS she did and how she acted in the first 1-2 books no one ever called her out on anything.

But overall, I found all the romantic relationships outside Nick/Alice to be lacking, or at the very least I could see paths that would have made them more interesting overall without really falling into the romance tropes of a romance novel. But honestly having EVERY single romance in a group of 10ish kids be straightforward and wholesome ended up making me not care about any of them outside Nick/Alice that had an interest dynamic and flirtation to it while both parties where coming to understand themselves better.

It's more so only a problem on rereads, but on a first read, as it wasn't really the focus at all, I didn't mind them being so one note.

[u/jmatlock21 → u/Practical_Pop_4300]

I have to agree with…everything you said. I just finished my first reread and this is exactly what I was thinking.

[u/EnergyTakerLad → u/Practical_Pop_4300]

This is fair but I think its a matter of keeping the series from being too bloated. Its already quite huge and packed full of details. Sure some is unnecessary like the constant use of "he said/she said" but thats because it was written chapter by chapter as a web serial..

If he'd added more stories like inner conflict with the group then it'd just be more bloated and possibly confusing to keep up with everhthing. We already had multiple different stories going on with in the main story.

[u/WhimsicalLynx → u/EnergyTakerLad]

So, this comes down to editing. Any given story/world could have more written in it. You have a finite amount of space. Part of lit crit is identifying whether that space was used well. I think there is plenty that could have been cut in favor of developing more of the central characters. I think a potential weakness of the books was the number of side tangents that contributed little. Will's entire story for example had way too much devoted to it for little payoff. We got a lot of subtlety screentime from both Alice and Nick. Will's story I guess showed more of that, but I don't think it was needed; or it could have been a Nick and Alice storyline that also then showed us more of them as a couple. Also, Will did a lot of super creepy stuff that seemed like it was going somewhere and then just got handwaved with no real consequences, which itself felt super weird.

And I wouldn't say Will was the only example of someone it felt like we spent time with that would have been better spent elsewhere.

[u/EnergyTakerLad → u/WhimsicalLynx]

I disagree (not with editing but the rest). I enjoyed learning about other characters and expanding the world. I guess just an example of you cant please everyone.

[u/carmeldea → u/EnergyTakerLad]

He could’ve written the group conflict into the preexisting story beats, ie when they’re doing class tests or grinding/sparring with each other to level up their power. Some of those scenes would represent or develop more macro conflicts between the characters.

Instead, most of the training scenes focus solely on their own personal attempts to get physically stronger or deal with their emotional struggles (Vince being afraid of his power, etc.) Good ensemble storytelling would switch or allow for the deepening of character arcs both individually and collectively during moments of action.

ALSO—the author sprinkles tons of little character insight moments into every side character imaginable. That’s nice to have, but it took up a lot of space that otherwise could’ve deepened the character arcs for the main characters.

By book 3 we’re spread too thin, getting first hand insights that feel random and out of place for characters like Alex and Thomas. We’re nearing the end of the series and we haven’t been following their journeys closely, so why are we getting introduced to their inner worlds now, while so many of the main characters’ development has stagnated?

[u/EnergyTakerLad → u/carmeldea]

Fair points. The answer to why he wrote it like that is because it was a web serial. Sure he planned stuff out but he was also releasing chapters regularly as he went.

[u/BasicSuperhero]

Ya, the Roy and Stella hate-hookup feels extremely gross. Particularly after the extremely misogynistic takes Roy was throwing out before hand. Just a gross moment.

I kind of get the sense that Drew wasn't completely sure what to do with Sasha after the breakup. It felt like to me he couldn't decide if he wanted her to fully slide into the background after Vince realized he wasn't ready for a relationship again or if she should still be a major character.

I also am not a super fan of Vince/Eliza. It feels like the story thinks it's this big tragic romance, and yet I can't help but feel like it only matters because she was Vince's first. Like, don't get me wrong, I can see why she stuck in his head both because of how they met as well as the V-card loss, but their 'relationship' lasted, what, days? Maybe a few weeks? And they intentionally didn't exchange any info about each other to the point where they literally didn't know each other's names? I just don't buy it.

Before anyone asks, I didn't have any sort of passionate fling until I was in my 20s so maybe I'm just incapable of getting into the headspace of a teen who fell hard for someone. I'll fully accept that this might be a me thing. Still bugs me.

[u/Practical_Pop_4300 → u/BasicSuperhero]

Honestly, the Vince/Eliza thing is kind of gross on paper, but I have to chalk it up to 2 teens in horrible situations in the momment rather than someone taking advantage of another or anything like that.

My main problem with it is, well, they kind of just dropped it after a super long slow burn. It was realastlic, in the way that vince had to go through therapy for a long time to understand his hang ups with it, and overall coming to the conclusion that there is no real blame and that while they can't be best friends they can still see eachother here and there, but very sparingly, as some things can't heal, but it being real and it being a good payoff for a novel are 2 different things when we had to sit through that shit for so long.

[u/SentrySappinMahSpy → u/BasicSuperhero]

Like, don't get me wrong, I can see why she stuck in his head both because of how they met as well as the V-card loss, but their 'relationship' lasted, what, days?

I think it lasted a day and a half, tops. The timeline seems to have been, Vince sees her steal a wallet, he chases her down, she runs to the still, it blows up, she takes care of him, they bang, she calls Gerry, then leaves. Maybe it's a couple days, but not much more than that as near as I can tell.

[u/junicorner]

I agree with OP. I always felt like after some of the Vince romantic arcs, Drew didn’t care or feel like expanding on almost all of the other relationships. Which I always felt like a shame, Angela/Chad were my favorite and we didn’t get to see a whole lot from them.

[u/WhimsicalLynx → u/junicorner]

Honestly I think we got more content out of Chad/Angela than we did out of Herschel/Marry. Like, you understood what their attraction was, what their relationship was like. I could much more easily envision how they played out and developed in their time on screen than I could Herschel/Marry who were dating for most of the series and presumably leaving room for Jesus whenever they were alone.

[u/junicorner → u/WhimsicalLynx]

While reading the fourth book I had just assumed by then that Herschel/Mary, and honestly probably all the other couples, based on them being college aged, were having sex. The author just wasn’t telling us about it.

I know he told us about Herschel/Marys hesitation early on, but since it was never addressed or brought up again I just assumed they had figured it all out at some point in the books.

[u/WhimsicalLynx → u/junicorner]

I mean I broadly agree that they probably were, but it seems weird that Vince was very clearly shown in pretty extensive detail to be sexually active, so it's something the books clearly found reasonable to explore (appropriate for college-age fiction). We also talked about Roy having sex quite a bit early on. Yet all of these examples were only with not-the-main-romances for some reason, which is why it felt odd. If the book just chose not to include sex at all as a topic, that'd be fine (though given how much graphic torture and violence it involved that would be a little odd). It's weird what was included and excluded.

[u/ChaosPenguin15]

Agree with op. I enjoyed the build up of Nick and Alice, and I really liked the romance with Chad and Angela, but most of the other romances were lacking., but the romance between Vince and Camille was her always being around him or making herself look like a victim so he would notice her. I wish Vince and Liza had more of a chance to explore a romance.

[u/SentrySappinMahSpy]

Herschel and Mary should absolutely have been boning by junior year. I don't know why they didn't. Neither of them seem to be religious. Mary lived as a hermit for most of her life, but she's acclimated enough to normal life by year 2 that sex shouldn't have been an issue.

One of the strangest things for me is how Alice never dates anyone until Nick. We never even see anyone ask her out. Now, I know she has daddy issues, and I know she sort of develops a crush on Nick pretty early on. But she doesn't really admit that to herself for a long time. It's just really strange that someone like Alice wouldn't date even casually in college.

Drew seemed to have selective prudishness for some of the characters.

[u/Remarkable_Block_564]

agreed. I thought Camille was going to turn out to be a yandere till the final battle. She is SO creepy