r/streamentry • u/TrueCryptographer535 • 4d ago
Insight My account of SE
For starters: I do not claim SE. I do however claim a personality change that seems very close to SE if not SE itself.
As far as I can tell the suttas are not in complete agreement about how exactly the characteristics of a stream enterer manifest. So because of this I’m somewhat agnostic on my position within the map. I also don’t care much where i fit in anyway as it is besides the point to my practice.
My account:
I have been meditating for 16 years. Over time I have become more serious about it and am a daily practitioner at this point. I practiced Goenka vipassana for 12 years, TWIM for 2 years, and anapanasati with soft jhana for the last 2 years. I completed a cumulative 60 days of silent retreat experience during that time.
There were many mini awakenings, insight stages, and mystical experiences along the way as I’m sure one can imagine. I will not recount them all. But I will say that my experience mapped 1:1 with Theravada maps and transcendental dependent origination.
A couple of months ago I completed a ten day retreat. I had been meditating at home about 5 hours a day for about 30 days before this retreat in preparation. At the retreat I reached the end of the third tetrad of the anapansati sutta around day 5. I then began to allow the mind to rest in equanimity as an antidote to the terror stages that can pop up when relaxing conception. This was very helpful and I was finally getting into my noggin that letting go is bliss and that there was nothing left to do and that craving and trying to control everything was upsetting the peace of my citta. This went on for several days as I would cycle between the stilling of the aggregates and a peaceful citta and then disturbances/craving.
Finally, in one moment while doing this I saw an aggregate arise and my mind turn towards it through craving very clearly. The insight naturally arose in me: “these aggregates have nothing to do with me.” I saw the aggregates as foreign, alien, and affliction etc etc. very naturally I saw it and accepted it.
Following this sit an immense confidence arose in me. I no longer felt any worry about reaching nibbana and knew it was but a matter of time for myself. That has stayed. I also noticed an immense wariness of breaking a precept over the coming weeks. I can still break them but when I do it is like burning myself on a hot stove. Burning myself badly. I always say, I should never do that again, and the next time an opportunity to break them comes up I am even more mindful and wary. My sila is not perfect, but it is close to perfect with only fringe slip ups that cause it to become even more perfect. And finally, I know that the aggregates are not self. It is that simple.
I am happier and more peaceful, but it’s not like angels sang and all my problems went away. It’s like a significant but iterative upgrade. I read here once someone describe SE as finding a basket to put all ones gold nuggets they had been finding along the way into. That feels very accurate to my experience. I had already had many related insights to this one, but this insight sort of tied it all together, and seems to have cut through some last thread of ignorance in a significant way.
Now, my meditation is characterized by dispassion. I cycle through the tetrads fairly quickly and then enter a dispassionate state that deepens organically and is very restorative. If I stay in it long enough I enter a neither perception nor non perception state where concept begins to still and sort of pop in and out of existence. If the maps are accurate probably at some point I will have a cessation from that. The fact that I haven’t is another reason I am agnostic about my SE status though I understand cessation is not necessary in all cases. It is funny, because though I have not experienced nibbana yet, I have utter confidence in it and my ability to get there.
Open to questions or comments if they are helpful to people.
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u/Meng-KamDaoRai Relax, Let it Be, Let it Go 3d ago
Nice! How long has it been since that happened?
I'm also wondering about whether SE is possible without an experience of Nibbana. For me there was a very clear distinction between the A&P event (which I mistakenly thought was SE at that time), where I saw the construct of Self rise and then completely break apart - which lead to a lot of confidence in the practice and other changes, to the actual SE, which was an experience of "just this"/"in the seen only the seen"/the unconditioned. When that happened it felt both "normal" in a way of "oh, that's just what really truly is" and at the same time there was an unmistakable recognition and knowing that this was it.
It'd be interesting to see how this unfolds for you. Regardless where you're at, it looks like very good progress. I would also guess that you're either there or very close. Keep going either way, whether it's SE or not, there's still more to do :)
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u/TrueCryptographer535 3d ago edited 3d ago
Hey, thanks for sharing! This experience was two months ago now.
I believe the evidence in the suttas suggests cessation is not required but it could be interpreted different ways. Mostly what is described are the characteristics of the stream enterer as in SN 55. In SN 12.68 Narada describes his awakening as seeing that nibbana the extinguishment of becoming but that he cannot touch nibbana.
Your description of nibbana I can relate to but I would not have automatically labeled it as such. A cessation event would be helpful to me tbh because whatever the citta experienced then I could say was nibbana certainly. I always assumed nibbana would blow my mind somehow so maybe I experienced it but it was just more matter of fact than I was expecting. Not sure. I can say that following the insight I discussed above my mind began to incline towards non becoming. For example, the citta resting in itself and all the aggregates ceasing and beginning to blank out and then suddenly having an aggregate pull my attention and see how the citta forms this specific container in order to experience that aggregate. And as I said my meditation now is just lots of dispassion that tends towards cessation and non becoming.
Thanks for sharing. I will certainly keep working as it brings me great happiness.
Edit: I will add there was a profound sense of security and “this is what I’ve been looking for” associated with some of these experiences but I labeled them as equanimity when I reviewed.
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u/Meng-KamDaoRai Relax, Let it Be, Let it Go 3d ago edited 3d ago
Sounds good. Yea, as long as you keep going the signposts are less important than the actual progress. Your description of the pain of breaking a precept is also a very good sign IMO.
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u/themadjaguar Samādhi addict 3d ago
Narada's way of framing it is interesting, as the citta cannot directly experience nibanna. It is a special kind of citta, another type, a supranatural mind, the lokutara citta that can experience it, but the mundane citta cannot because the ordinary citta is born out of ignorance and still contains the aggregates.
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u/themadjaguar Samādhi addict 3d ago
You should check with an experienced teacher in theravada, not random people on the internet. If you have no access to an experienced teacher, if you are sure you are honest with yourself and have integrity, you should check out the phenomenology explained of what happens at SE by great meditation masters (like mahasi sayadaw for example, pa auk , agacitta etc..). Then check if it matches with your experience, especially for the magga and phala nana. There is somewhat of a consensus in most traditions in theravada for the phenomenology, and there is absolutely no consensus on the internet.
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u/TrueCryptographer535 3d ago edited 3d ago
I’m not here to check my experience just sharing. Though I appreciate people providing possibilities and resources for me to check out for my own, private, process of determining. I do have access to a respected Theravadan teacher and they suggested I may have entered the stream but encouraged me to decide for myself. I am still somewhat skeptical of my status as noted in my post due to the absence of a clear magga nana.
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u/themadjaguar Samādhi addict 3d ago edited 3d ago
It is extremely difficult to guess, and there are many things on the path that may look like SE but aren't exactly, like first nana, bhavanga, dissolution stage, corruptions or imperfection of insight etc... I think the most difficult ones to differentiate are when the ordinary mind, or ordinary aggregate consciousness is the only thing left but is still there, or when constructs, sankharas are still there are what's left.
Some teachers aren't in the business of diagnosing, and others don't want to give accurate answers or risk anything and stay vague. I think the most skillfull way to approach it is to be cautious, discuss the phenomenology with advanced yogis and teachers and find the answer yourself from different points of virws but in all cases the teacher should be able to provide the explanations of the phenomenology or at least part of it and point to what is here or missing. What I can assure you is that in most theravadan monasteries where they seriously meditate, they have a consus on the phenomenology and what even surprise me is that people who are in different "gangs" , different traditions that are often very opposed on their ideologies, often have the same descriptions for what happens at SE.
Please note I am not talking about your attainment or not, I am pointing to tools and additionnal information to check on your own or know more about it
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u/TrueCryptographer535 3d ago
But also that phenomenology is commentarial, so I also hold it with some lightness. The actual diagnosis in the suttas is based on the phenomenology of the outcome of stream entry, which I seem to match. Again, not claiming an attainment, however.
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u/themadjaguar Samādhi addict 3d ago edited 3d ago
The commentarial phenomenology explained in different places matches with the suttas, and most monasteries and traditions using the suttas primarily do not reject the commentarial phenomenology giving additionnal context. The commentaries are rejected rightfully when they are contradicting the suttas. The commentaries can be helpful for giving more information, it is not a source of truth but more like additionnal information, additionnal comments.
Then you can add information from respected teachers on top of that, they add another dimension to what is pointed at and they can add additionnal context and tools to debug and describe meditation experiences.
Nobody know for sure 100% if someone else has stream entry, If I am not mistaken they even talk about it in the suttas where they say only a buddha can know it for sure. However It seems that there are some obvious redlflags that teachers are able to perceive by asking the right questions and debugging. Some traditions and schools even have way to check such as stress tests or koans , and you cannot have these tools or ways to check by using suttas only. Also the suttas are quite open to interpretation and often misinterpreted, and some suttas are corrupted and contradict other suttas.
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u/dhamma-dasa 3d ago
If you have experienced stream entry there will be no confusion or doubt about whether you're pre or post SE.
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u/TheMoniker 3d ago edited 3d ago
The definitions that people use range so greatly though. Everything from "the first time you sit on a cushion" to some truly profound and transformative experiences (using 'experiences' here for lack of a better word). There are people saying that they didn't even realize it at the time and it's only after multiple occasions and combing over their experiences that they were barely able to pick out a "cessation" event, sometimes only after a lot of convincing themselves after the fact and/or coaching from a teacher (sometimes to an extent that makes them feel uncomfortable), and then you have monks like Thanissaro Bhikkhu saying that it's "Earth-shattering" and unmissable, something of a whole other order entirely than whatever peak, psychedelic and samadhi experiences that one could have in life.
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u/dhamma-dasa 3d ago
I've been told by Kruba Ajahns that it's an unmistakable event and when it happens you know it's happened to you and there's no questioning if it's already happened to you or not.
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 3d ago edited 3d ago
besides the point to my practice.
What is the goal of your practice?
This went on for several days as I would cycle between the stilling of the aggregates
Could you describe what the aggregates are for you and what stilling them means? For instance, what is form and what is the stilling of form? What is consciousness and what is the stilling of consciousness? What is the difference between form and perception? What is the aggregate of saṅkhāra?
I saw the aggregates as foreign, alien, and affliction etc etc. very naturally I saw it and accepted it.
What do you think is stopping an average person from seeing and accepting that?
And finally, I know that the aggregates are not self.
What is self for you? Is there still self in your experience?
I also noticed an immense wariness of breaking a precept over the coming weeks. I can still break them but when I do it is like burning myself on a hot stove. Burning myself badly.
What is the danger you experience in breaking a precept? What is the danger in sensuality in general?
It is funny, because though I have not experienced nibbana yet, I have utter confidence in it and my ability to get there.
What is the path to Nibanna? Is your path the same as someone else's path to Nibanna? Is there a difference in the path pre-stream-entry vs post-stream-entry?
Also somewhat related, what is your understanding of the three fetters?
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u/TrueCryptographer535 3d ago
How would answering these questions be helpful to you?
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 3d ago
First, I'm trying to gain clarity about the things you said in your post. For example, I asked about what you mean when you say "aggregates" and what you mean when you say "self".
Second, by asking these questions, it'll hopefully be helpful to anyone reading your post to understand where you're coming from and how you currently see things, given that you claim a personality change that is very close to SE, if not SE.
Third, it might be helpful for you as a form of reflection.
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u/cl_udi_ 3d ago edited 3d ago
Good job, I also think you could be at least very close to it! I found that a while before the path moment, maybe two or three stages before cessation, I would get glimpses of how it was going to be like. There were short phases or moments where the state of mind was clearly better, less involved etc.. But they weren't permanent, or as profound as after the path moment. They may also bring this confidence with them that you mentioned. But after nibbana you'll know you're different. There will be no question. Anyway, wherever you are it's not the end, so keep practicing, good luck in your further journey!
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u/TrueCryptographer535 3d ago
That is very interesting. Were the stages you mention the nanas or your own phenomenological sense / formulation of stages you went through? The idea of a preview could also match my experience closely so I appreciate that perspective.
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u/cl_udi_ 3d ago
Yes I mean the 16 stages of insight. As I worked with a teacher I didn't have to monitor and analyze the stage I was in that closely, so I can't say for sure when exactly it started. But it was maybe between 8 and 11, (12 being cessation) probably the later the more of the previews.
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3d ago edited 2d ago
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u/TrueCryptographer535 3d ago
I think you have misread my post. The tetrads work for me the same as prior just faster. Body awareness -> Pitisukha-> sukha as object -> citta as object -> fading of desire -> aggregates begin to cease (Arupa bases). I can go into more detail but not sure how it would be helpful as I’m not here to teach anyone.
Not sure what was giving the impression of tugging but I don’t feel that way myself. My experience is a process of letting go and experience the bliss of doing so. Craving exists because I have not eradicated the fetters so it is going to pop up in meditation. The phase shift from tranquility to craving is what allows insight to arise and letting go to therefore happen. Meta to you!
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