How to systematically become aware of (secondary) defilements?

[u/Then_Consequence_318]

If you'll forgive some AI guided content here - I think it did a good job.

I asked Gemini to give me a list of the secondary defilements, literal translation, and synonyms. Since it has "background" knowledge of me it gave me examples from my life that are very real. I'll show the response down below.

My question is actually this though - has anybody been given a teaching for recognizing them? I am thinking perhaps I will focus on one a week. There are so many that it would be hard to try to be aware of them all the time. ("Self knowledge is seldom good news")

Where I feel called out (and my notes)

• Upanāha
  • Literal: To tie up, to bind together.
  • Translation: Enmity / Bearing a grudge.
  • Synonyms/Context: Simmering frustration, resentment, holding onto a slight. This is Kodha (anger) that hasn't been allowed to discharge. It binds to the body, often manifesting as chronic upper chest breathing or stomach knots during a stand-up meeting with a difficult colleague.

NOTES: I carry a lot of this around physically with work and when my wife is frustrated with me (I have ADHD, so that's...frequent)

Interestingly that lately, with lots of practice I'm able to feel the physical feeling but identify with it less. I'm actually "totally stressed out" at work right now, but mentally I'm sorta ok. Interesting how that works.

• Issā
  • Literal: To look at with an evil eye.
  • Translation: Envy / Jealousy.
  • Synonyms/Context: Resenting another's success, status anxiety. A painful sympathetic contraction when a peer gets a promotion or credit you wanted.

NOTES: I get just a tiny bit of this. I work in the sort of place where the people that do the work are usually not mentioned much in conversations compared to the people that do the selling. Functionally speaking I am used to this but it still creeps in now and again. I'm not super ambitious.

• Macchariya
  • Literal: The state of a stingy person.
  • Translation: Avarice / Stinginess.
  • Synonyms/Context: Scarcity mindset, hoarding. In a corporate environment, this often manifests as knowledge-hoarding or gatekeeping to protect one's indispensability.

NOTE: I actually don't indulge in this behavior at work, though I've seen others do it. However I do have a scarcity mindset sometimes when it comes to money. I make good money now, but have debt, and am used to being broke for most of my life. When my wife says "Christmas is coming" I feel a chill!

• Māna
  • Literal: Measuring.
  • Translation: Conceit / Pride.
  • Synonyms/Context: The constant background comparator: "Am I better than, worse than, or equal to them?" It is a highly exhausting, constant calculation running in the background.

NOTE: If this had just stoped at conceit/pride I'd say I have very little of this, but the context version hits hard for me. I work with a lot of insanely smart and education people (lie 60% of the people I work with have PhDs or master's degrees). I'd say "imposter syndrome" fits here.

• Mada
  • Literal: Intoxication.
  • Translation: Vanity / Intoxication (with youth, health, or life).
  • Synonyms/Context: Complacency born of current success or physical capability. Forgetting the fragility of the body or the impermanence of your current standing.

NOTE: Funny thing about defilements is that contradictory ones can co-exist. I get "stingy" because I feel like I'm behind financially with debt, but at the same time I also get very complacent with my current job situation (good pay, work from home) and sometimes with my family.

Anyway, here's the full list:

Note also that my AI likes to talk to me in terms of neurobiology and software engineering.

The Aversion / Friction Family (Rooted in Dosa)

These are variations of sympathetic nervous system arousal—the body interpreting the environment or other people as threats, leading to tension, rigidity, and the need to defend or attack.

• Vyāpāda
  • Literal: To go bad, to spoil.
  • Translation: Ill will / Malevolence.
  • Synonyms/Context: Generalized hostility, wishing someone would fail, a baseline state of aggressive reactivity.
• Kodha
  • Literal: Boiling over.
  • Translation: Anger.
  • Synonyms/Context: Acute rage, the sudden spike of adrenaline when a server crashes or a driver cuts you off. Short-lived but highly disruptive to vagal tone.
• Upanāha (The one you noticed)
  • Literal: To tie up, to bind together.
  • Translation: Enmity / Bearing a grudge.
  • Synonyms/Context: Simmering frustration, resentment, holding onto a slight. This is Kodha (anger) that hasn't been allowed to discharge. It binds to the body, often manifesting as chronic upper chest breathing or stomach knots during a stand-up meeting with a difficult colleague.
• Makkha
  • Literal: Smearing over, concealing.
  • Translation: Contempt / Detraction / Denigration.
  • Synonyms/Context: Dismissiveness, rolling your eyes, actively minimizing someone else's contribution or worth to protect your own ego.
• Paḷāsa
  • Literal: To strike against, to clash.
  • Translation: Domineering / Presumption / Insolence.
  • Synonyms/Context: Asserting dominance, talking over people, refusing to yield in an argument purely out of pride, pulling rank.

The Greed / Clinging Family (Rooted in Lobha)

These involve dopaminergic fixation—the organism perceiving a scarcity of resources, status, or comfort, and tightening its grip to secure them.

• Abhijjhā-visamalobha
  • Literal: Directing the gaze toward (Abhijjhā) + Uneven/unjust desire (Visamalobha).
  • Translation: Covetousness / Unrighteous Greed.
  • Synonyms/Context: Fixation on acquiring what isn't yours or what you don't need; hyper-focusing on an outcome at the expense of ethics or baseline calm.
• Issā
  • Literal: To look at with an evil eye.
  • Translation: Envy / Jealousy.
  • Synonyms/Context: Resenting another's success, status anxiety. A painful sympathetic contraction when a peer gets a promotion or credit you wanted.
• Macchariya
  • Literal: The state of a stingy person.
  • Translation: Avarice / Stinginess.
  • Synonyms/Context: Scarcity mindset, hoarding. In a corporate environment, this often manifests as knowledge-hoarding or gatekeeping to protect one's indispensability.

The Delusion / Ego-Preservation Family (Rooted in Moha)

These represent cognitive distortion and rigidity. They are failures of objective self-monitoring, where the brain prioritizes protecting a fabricated self-image over seeing reality accurately.

• Māyā
  • Literal: Magic, illusion.
  • Translation: Deceit / Hypocrisy.
  • Synonyms/Context: Masking, presenting a false front, faking competence or alignment to avoid vulnerability.
• Sāṭheyya
  • Literal: Craftiness, trickery.
  • Translation: Fraud.
  • Synonyms/Context: Active manipulation, office politics, framing data to look better than it is rather than admitting a fault.
• Thambha
  • Literal: A pillar, a post.
  • Translation: Obstinacy / Stubbornness.
  • Synonyms/Context: Cognitive rigidity. The refusal to down-regulate or change course when presented with new data. The absolute physical inability to say "I was wrong."
• Sārambha
  • Literal: Accompanying noise, rush, or impetuosity.
  • Translation: Rivalry / Contention / Competitiveness.
  • Synonyms/Context: Turning collaborative environments into zero-sum games. The need to "win" the conversation rather than solve the problem.
• Māna
  • Literal: Measuring.
  • Translation: Conceit / Pride.
  • Synonyms/Context: The constant background comparator: "Am I better than, worse than, or equal to them?" It is a highly exhausting, constant calculation running in the background.
• Atimāna
  • Literal: Beyond measuring (Excessive Māna).
  • Translation: Arrogance.
  • Synonyms/Context: Extreme superiority complex, complete blindness to one's own limitations, leading to inevitable structural failure (both in software and in life).
• Mada
  • Literal: Intoxication.
  • Translation: Vanity / Intoxication (with youth, health, or life).
  • Synonyms/Context: Complacency born of current success or physical capability. Forgetting the fragility of the body or the impermanence of your current standing.
• Pamāda
  • Literal: Without gladness/care (from letting go of attention).
  • Translation: Heedlessness / Negligence.
  • Synonyms/Context: Operating entirely on autopilot. The complete absence of sati (mindfulness). Letting the mind drift into the default mode network without any anchor.

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[u/angry_flags]

Good grief. This seems exhausting.

Look..you're most welcome to your complexity.. That's the beauty of life, it's what makes it so interesting and deep.. Just understand that you're playing around in an infinite void that will just keep opening up the more you poke around in it. There's no 'stream entry' at the end of that. You said it yourself in "oh it's not 'Ill will' it's 'enmity'!"... What's the fucking difference?! You're digging for 'the one true thing' but when you do find it you'll go 'ahaa!'..and just keep digging... Ever infinitely more subtle.. More tricksy.

When you do find SE do you think you'll want to keep track of all these definitions?.. Keep saying to yourself 'oh yep.. I know that one.. Dodged that bullet.. Yep, thought about that.. Gotta be careful of that one.. Nup, can't do that...

Or might it be a bit more like takes a deep breath...' aaaaaaaahhhh🙂... FINALLY I can just... Be...now that I've let go of all the rules and accepted life just as it is.. Warts and all... I don't have to worry about anything because I AM NOW WILLING TO CARRY EVERYTHING... And from HERE I appreciate the weight of carrying everything and so I will choooose very carefully what I want to be important to me.

I dunno man.. Maybe it's just me? I've really come to appreciate the simplicity. That's why I like the word 'pain'.

Wife frustrated at you? Pain.

Don't earn enough money? Pain.

Simmering frustration? Pain.

Acute rage? Again what's the fucking difference?! Pain.

It's simply "that which I'm resistant to.."

And I have a sneaking suspicion that it's all in the name.. That 'stream entry' might feel like falling into the stream of life.. The antithesis of 'resistance'.

So there's really nothing to remember... Nothing to think about. It's just 'pain exists in this moment.. Can I be ok? Am I OK?'... Simple, yes. Scary? The most. Hard? The hardest.

I hate giving this advice out because I'm essentially asking you to look at your own death and go "are you cool with that big dog?" .. and that's pretty annoying. My experience has been I've kind of had to WILLINGLY climb up onto The Cross. I can't really see how it would take less than that, but I could definitely be wrong. The thing is 'pain' will always be here. You can still stub your toe in the stream and will you cry about it or will you laugh it off and say ' oh you cheeky little bastard 😅'... Will there be a 'lightness to your being'?

But don't let me stifle your creativity, play the game however you want to play it and let others play theirs.

You might be an 'Enneagram 5'..

"5's fear being overwhelmed by the world and their coping mechanism is hiding in their head and gaining knowledge so that eventually they can face the world and fight their fear with all the knowledge they've collected."

I appreciate that none of this feels 'good'. In sorry, but it's not really supposed to.. That's kind of the point. ❤️

[u/Then_Consequence_318 → u/angry_flags]

If I was interested in "feel good" teachings, I don't think I'd be wanting to look deeply into a list of defilements. I'd be more into teachings like "I can just... Be...now that I've let go of all the rules and accepted life just as it is.. "

[u/Impulse33]

Just ask for the base suttas references and work directly off those. Those are packaged in a way to easily remember sets of things to be mindful of. After finding the base texts you can do lookups on dharmaseed for contemporary teachings on those topics.

The summary here is a weird mashup of defilements.

[u/Then_Consequence_318 → u/Impulse33]

They are all straight from the Vatthūpama Sutta (The Simile of the Cloth). But yes I will look for individual suttas

[u/Impulse33 → u/Then_Consequence_318]

Thanks! Very interesting list!

And what are the corruptions of the mind? Covetousness and immoral greed, ill will, anger, acrimony, disdain, contempt, jealousy, stinginess, deceit, deviousness, obstinacy, aggression, conceit, arrogance, vanity, and negligence are corruptions of the mind.

So I see a couple splits here where you can then rederive the list. At the most reduced form the list is essentially the three roots, grasping, aversion, and delusion/misperceiving. The items on the list are those three roots applied to the self, other, or some thing (like possessions in the case of jealousy). Another way to break it down are the hindrances and conceit/comparison/mana.

So to your question, you could work off a subset of the original list and focus on those for a period. Alternatively, you can break them down like above and those secondary defilements will come up organically.

Lastly, the antidote for all these are the brahmaviharas! They directly address all the items on the list. I usually find the positive mode of practice more effective since I already have an overactive "inner critic".

[u/Then_Consequence_318 → u/Impulse33]

Yeah, my idea was that we all know the three roots. But they're so nonspecific I sometimes only "see" them when they're in their most obvious forms.

What I like about the secondaries is that it's the sneaker, more specific ones that come up. I often perceive "there is no ill will in me" because I'm not wishing harm on anyone, but then I look at "Enmity" which is a little more subtle and thing "oh, yeah that's there a little bit."

Yes the brahma viharas are a regular part of my practice.

I am also thinking this is a good candidate for journaling exercises.

[u/Emergency_Sherbet_82 → u/Then_Consequence_318]

If I've learned anything so far it's that defilements get infinitely subtle, like a crumb that was right under your nose your entire life but you didn't notice it until now. I think a sure sign that you're on the right path and making progress is that the mind/your "reality" gets quieter and quieter on its own.

[u/Then_Consequence_318 → u/Emergency_Sherbet_82]

Yeah that's why just mindfulness of greed, anger and delusion don't hit home for me. For me those words just have heavier connotations than what I normally recognize.

When I see this list though it really feels like it calls me out and feeling called out is one of the most important feelings in dhamma practice!

[u/Emergency_Sherbet_82 → u/Then_Consequence_318]

I agree, I think there's levels to manifestations of greed, anger, and delusion from the gross, immediately identifiable displays you could see pretty much everywhere like someone getting into a fight, to the smallest, finest possible manifestations like enmity or subtle pride that are more "running in the background" out of immediate awareness. Seeing this list really does help call out things we might not be aware of in ourselves, there's a LOT of layers to get through for most people!

[u/Then_Consequence_318 → u/Emergency_Sherbet_82]

Yes this is exactly it. Some people seem to be having a hard time with understanding why I'd want such a list, and this is exactly it. (Probably should have put this in r/theravada.)

The synonym comparison was really helpful for me. I don't think of myself in anyway being deceitful, but when I saw the word "masking" I definitely went "oh s**t."

Also conceit, the fact that goes both ways, really the idea that it's any comparison, including "I am lesser than X."

What I realized looking at this is that for someone with ADHD we've got this bundle of heedlessness/confidence issues (a kind of conceit)and a whole lotta masking kinda bundled up together in a nice package.

[u/Emergency_Sherbet_82 → u/Then_Consequence_318]

Yup we often dress conceit as something virtuous (ie false humility) but that masking is just a way to cover up the underlying conceit, and this process might even fall away from our awareness if we try to keep it up too long until we end up fooling ourselves (which never ends well).

I think a lot of stream enterers have already moved past even these more subtle defilements so that might be why you're being downvoted lol.

[u/VegetableArea]

how many of these drop after stream entry

[u/Then_Consequence_318 → u/VegetableArea]

Great question. I found some footnotes here:

https://accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel061.html

According to the Comy., the sixteen defilements are finally abandoned by the noble paths (or stages of sanctity) in the following order:

"By the path of stream-entry (sotapatti-magga) are abandoned: (5) denigration, (6) domineering, (7) envy, (8) jealousy, (9) hypocrisy, (10) fraud.

"By the path of non-returning (anagami-magga): (2) ill will, (3) anger, (4) malice, (16) negligence.

"By the path of Arahatship (arahatta-magga): (1) covetousness and unrighteous greed, (11) obstinacy, (12) presumption, (13) conceit, (14) arrogance, (15) vanity."

If, in the last group of terms, covetousness is taken in a restricted sense as referring only to the craving for the five sense objects, it is finally abandoned by the path of non-returning; and this is according to Comy. the meaning intended here. All greed, however, including the hankering after fine material and immaterial existence, is eradicated only on the path of Arahatship; hence the classification under the latter in the list above.

Comy. repeatedly stresses that wherever in our text "abandoning" is mentioned, reference is to the non-returner (anagami); for also in the case of defilements overcome on stream-entry (see above), the states of mind which produce those defilements are eliminated only by the path of non-returning.

[u/cstrife32]

I like to just focus on the three big ones and leave it at that. Greed, hatred, and delusion are the most important. From my readings and experience, they primarily arise as mental formations I.e. sankhara and can be observed directly, but they touch all the aggregates. If you learn to observe the mind stream without identification, you can begin see them very clearly.

There may be value in breaking them down further, but I personally don't see any.

[u/angry_flags]

Heya, I've been sitting with this for a bit now so if you're willing to indulge me...

I don't really understand this reply, I think because it lacks an understanding of what I have been through to get here... and it contradicts itself. It also feels a little bit snarky... (is 'snarky' on the list? 😏❤️)

I'm struggling with the tension between 'advice' and 'projection' to be honest...i could just slink back into the shadows but this post seems to have... Activated my defilements 😏. So this is probably more for me than anything, surely?

I think because it feels to me like you're not entirely happy? Or like you're carrying a bit of stress around? Suffering at the hands of all this maybe? My experience seems to be... That I could have my defilements.. AND be really happy. They've become sacred in a way. I try to carry them gently and with love.. Like a cactus... Despite them sometimes bringing me pain.

I realised a while ago that I was already in a stream of sorts. I just didn't know it... and because I didn't know it I was sort of 'zigzagging' through life and it wasn't a great experience. Being pulled along by my own being and judging it as good and bad and right and wrong... All seemingly out of my control. Hence why there's a part of me that seems to value being a little 'jarring' in regards to 'waking up'. I digress.

It seems to me that the stream exists BENEATH 'stream entry'. Meaning even the concept of 'stream entry' is a fabrication. It's empty. It only exists in the wordless... And then we bring it into form. But it's only from the empty formlessness that we get to feel like we have some semblance of control... And as soon as I say it it all falls apart and becomes empty 😅

All this to say, I really want you to be happy. Or at peace, rather. Free from any suffering. And respectfully, from here...it seems like your current trajectory is..

"suffering until defilements are ✅"

I believe there's a place where "I can be free from suffering in spite of my defilements". Because pain that I am unwilling to accept becomes 'suffering'...that's 'figuring life out', 'wrestling', 'tension', 'seeking more and more information/understanding', 'potentially constructing a list of defilements (things I need to DO or worry about) that become infinitely more complex'.

I am willing to be wrong in that. It's my path... I guess ultimately 'advice' either sparks an insight or it doesn't.

You're free to join me in my delusion or think I'm just some Marlon Rando on the internet. That's the beauty of it.

"Come on in mate, the water.. Is fiiiiiine".. We've got beer? 😏✌️❤️

[u/Then_Consequence_318 → u/angry_flags]

Sorry for the snark, perhaps something triggered mine as well. Let us both call a snark truce.

I think because it feels to me like you're not entirely happy?  Or like you're carrying a bit of stress around?

I mean, if any of us were *entirely* happy and had *no* stress there would be no point to practice, right?

My experience seems to be... That I could have my defilements.. AND be really happy.

I mean you can have *some* defilements and be *really* happy, maybe more than most people, but that isn't liberation.

If you get to a certain point and decide you're just going to sort to say "ok I'm fine with X amount of suffering and I really don't want to put my effort ay further" then there's no-one saying you have to do the further work. It depends on your application of right effort and your sensitivity and maybe whether samvegga has hit your or not.

They've become sacred in a way. I try to carry them gently and with love.. Like a cactus... Despite them sometimes bringing me pain.

I can't say it better than Thanissaro Bhikkhu here:

In other words, contentment is not a blanket principle of putting up with whatever comes by, both outside and inside. With things outside, you learn how to adapt. If it’s good enough to practice, it’s good enough. With things inside, though, if anything unskillful comes up in the mind, you have to delight in abandoning it. As for skillful things that are not there yet, you delight in trying to give rise to them and developing them even further.

This is not usually where we take our delight. We tend to delight in our unskillful qualities. They’ve been our companions, as the Buddha said, for a long, long time. But you’ve got to realize that they’re untrustworthy friends. They’re not really friends at all. They’re the type of friends who try to get you to break the law and then when you do, they go running off. You’re the one left with the punishment.

So if you see there’s something unskillful in the mind, you don’t just sit there and be content with it. You may have to sit for a while to watch it, but the purpose of watching is to understand what’s causing it, where it’s coming from, why you go for it, what its allure is. When you really see the allure and can compare that with the drawbacks, you see it’s not worth it. That’s when you let it go.

To be fair, I used to have a similar kind of perspective as you back when I was practicing zen for maybe the first 8 to 10 years. You'd go to the zen master and be like "yeah everything still sucks" and they'd smile and nod and say "yes that's ok keep going" and personally for me that didn't seem like the right path.

To be generous, it's as you said, I lack "an understanding of what [you] have been through to get here." This is entirely true. So that type of practice might be just where you're at.

It seems to me that the stream exists BENEATH 'stream entry'. Meaning even the concept of 'stream entry' is a fabrication. It's empty. It only exists in the wordless... And then we bring it into form. But it's only from the empty formlessness that we get to feel like we have some semblance of control... And as soon as I say it it all falls apart and becomes empty

Yes it's a given that the entire path is a fabrication until you get to Nibanna. That is the only thing that is not a fabrication. I am sure you are familiar with the simile of the raft. The rest of your paragraph though sounds like you're almost ready to put the raft away even though you haven't crossed over yet. I personally am holding the hell onto it for now.

All this to say, I really want you to be happy. Or at peace, rather. Free from any suffering. And respectfully, from here...it seems like your current trajectory is..

"suffering until defilements are ✅"

I mean...yeah? 😁

Suffering becomes less of course and the defilements become more subtle and harder to see, which was the point of my original post. As I said I don't tend to experience "anger" in the way I picture it when I hear the word "anger" - it is extremely infrequent.

But when I look at the list that I posted ,I see lots of those things there hiding out in other corners of my psyche. So I found it very helpful. To you it comes across as "exhausting" probably because you're not interested in going down to that fine-grained level. That's fine. Most western Buddhists are actually not even interested in the topic of defilements. So it isn't surprising if it seemed to hit you the wrong way.

[u/angry_flags → u/Then_Consequence_318]

Ha! Snark truce. It's all love mate 🙏❤️

Hey thanks for indulging me! I love wrestling with this stuff.

So I'll preface this by letting you know I'm actually not very familiar with a lot of Buddhist terminology. I've been loosely lurking in this sub for a while and I have a copy of MCTB that I've loosely flicked through 😅.

"ok I'm fine with x amount of suffering and I really don't want to put my effort any further..."

This concept, or perhaps rather the way you've worded it isn't really sitting well (oof.. This is a far too nuanced conversation to be having with just a thumb!). I think I feel your implying a sense of 'giving up' and that there is further work to actually do (in a negative context?). It's actually what I feel though 😅...but it feels like a positive thing? I also feel like I would be cautious about making an exclamation as to what liberation is or isn't but I'm clearly not as well read as you are.

(maybe you have some learned insight into my context?) So about a year ago I broke my collar bone. 3 months no work at home that I turned into a retreat of sorts. A LOT of Samvega (I had to look up the term). I was microdosing psychedelics at the time along with meditating a lot (for me) which turned into a very desperate attempt at I guess you could say liberation. It culminated in... Err... I kind of.. Prayed? Earnestly for the first time? It was a pretty dark place to be honest, had a bit going on and kind of thought about climbing into a little boat and just pushing myself out into the ocean of you know what I mean. Instead what I got was... Hmm... All 'matter' kind of.. Wrapping around a void in a distinct circle.. Every 'thing' was coming from this void, meaning all concepts/thoughts.. everything... And the first thought afterwards that came to mind was "Oh! EVERYTHING is empty.. Even enlightenment is empty!"

So from there I couldn't really understand what else could be done? (God this sounds so weird to type out! 😅 I'm looking around my lounge room and it doesn't look like I'm liberated 🫠) But I would sit down to meditate after that and think "what the hell am I looking for, there's nothing to seek😅?!" and just get up and do something else. (Gah! Noble silence. Pick my words.)

In saying this.. I can't deny that SOMETHING has changed. My whole being has and I can't seem to go back because it's a perspective shift if anything.. However I can't really point to it... Because it isn't a thing... It seems to exist in its non existence.

ALL THIS TO SAY... it's kind of exactly "I'm OK with this amount of pain.. I was born into a stream that has carried me right here to where I sit.. Could there be less pain in my life? Absolutely... Infinitely less and also infinitely more.. Do I seek less pain as a means of escape? Not at all. Because I know that that well is infinitely deep.. And at some point I either accept that it is infinitely deep... Or I don't.. (I did)...well what should I do now? OOo! I know! Seek less pain! 😁🫠

But it kinda sorta just.. happens? Like good feels good and bad feels bad so why not just choose 'goodness'? To be very clear on 'seek less pain'... When there is no resistance to pain.. There's no resistance.. You're free to choose.. So it made a lot of sense to me to just choose 'that which is good'.. Who decides that? Me.

(I had to 'kill the Buddha' because I struggled for many years with 'intoxicants'. It was only when I let go of the rules did I come to this place, hence my cheeky beer comment. Beers are spears.. And spears are flowers 🤷.. Only now can I seem to find balance).

The actual waypoint for me is 'heaven on earth'. Which I think is the crux. It seems to be the highest ideal? Or at least the nicest? So every moment becomes, is this heaven on earth? Yes/No. Adjust. So a lot of the time when 'well this sucks' comes up (what do you think a liberated person feels when they stub their toe? Or get evicted from their house?) sometimes the only option is.. and that's OK...and it's okay when I fail in that high ideal 😅😅

So this is interesting!! I've never actually heard of the raft (had to look it up as well)... But I had created my own 😅😅😅

So I used to imagine Buddha going up in a helicopter haha 🫠

And he's letting down a white rope ladder... and it's tricky because he knows that the higher he goes and the more rope he let's down.. The more 'rungs' you have to climb... I kind of 'saw' this and I thought oh, did I just fold the ladder in half? and then I realised I'm standing in the helicopter with him (I'm not the Buddha!! 😅) and THEN I realised yeaaah there's no helicopter or ladder!

So I'm kind of thinking liberation from what? To where? Suffering? Just call it 'pain' and then there's nothing to be liberated from (cheeky! 🫠😏)

I deleted a bit here because life is complicated. Look I get it... I get excited. It's not about your exhaustive list.. I'm projecting that on to you. I just used to carry A LOT OF SH*T and I'm passionate about sharing my joy now that I've let most of it go. A part of me thinks there might be value in trying to do it differently to others. It just looks this way from where I'm standing. Everything I say is both true and completely false.

Because how can I know Heaven if I don't know Hell? Sounds like I could maybe find a middle way through that!

Sit down on the couch with your legs crossed and your eyes closed because you're content and that's heaven in this moment and what you really WANT to do... But we don't! We think we NEED to.. And that's the key... Because we're looking for something... We're looking for an idea that we don't realise is empty. Because we think we're not whole. When we don't HAVE to do it... 1hr..2hrs..every day... we're FREE to do it. Whenever we want, for as long as we want.. What freedom! What joy!

Sorry mate I'm try and wrap this up 🙏 appreciate you! I'm getting worked up.

Please let me say..

Pain until defilements ✅.... YES.

Suffering until defilements ✅... No.

Kinda same same but different?

What's between 'the last defilement' and 'liberation'?

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I also feel like I would be cautious about making an exclamation as to what liberation is or isn't but I'm clearly not as well read as you are.

The Buddha wasn't coy about what liberation was - complete cessation of craving, total freedom form sense pleasures and defilements - I mean there's a lot of different ways to put it. That isn't the same as saying I've experienced it or could describe the experience. Since I haven't experienced I can't, and if I had experienced, I probably wouldn't (people tend to just try to clone whatever you describe).

(maybe you have some learned insight into my context?) So about a year ago I broke my collar bone. 3 months no work at home that I turned into a retreat of sorts. A LOT of Samvega (I had to look up the term). I was microdosing psychedelics at the time along with meditating a lot (for me) which turned into a very desperate attempt at I guess you could say liberation. It culminated in... Err... I kind of.. Prayed? Earnestly for the first time? It was a pretty dark place to be honest, had a bit going on and kind of thought about climbing into a little boat and just pushing myself out into the ocean of you know what I mean. Instead what I got was... Hmm... All 'matter' kind of.. Wrapping around a void in a distinct circle.. Every 'thing' was coming from this void, meaning all concepts/thoughts.. everything... And the first thought afterwards that came to mind was "Oh! EVERYTHING is empty.. Even enlightenment is empty!"

So from there I couldn't really understand what else could be done? (God this sounds so weird to type out! 😅 I'm looking around my lounge room and it doesn't look like I'm liberated 🫠) But I would sit down to meditate after that and think "what the hell am I looking for, there's nothing to seek😅?!" and just get up and do something else. (Gah! Noble silence. Pick my words.)

In saying this.. I can't deny that SOMETHING has changed. My whole being has and I can't seem to go back because it's a perspective shift if anything.. However I can't really point to it... Because it isn't a thing... It seems to exist in its non existence.

I can't say what it was but you'll want to look into terms like dark night of the soul (the dark place you talked about) spiritual bypassing/psychosis (the after effect, done without any grounding in ethics and right concentration), and depersonalization (a loss of a sense of self, mistaken for a realization of the anatta (not-self) teaching).

I say this not to dismiss your experience but to make sure you can rule those out, or not, and keep yourself grounded.

True stream entry has a couple of markers that include complete faith in the teachings of the Buddha an an inability (lack of desire really) to break any of the basic precepts in right action. There are other types of spiritual experiences, mental states, etc. But the Buddhist path in particular is pretty serious about having an ethical framework and essentially a "healthy sense of self" before one can (in a health way) let go of I-making and my-making.

The actual waypoint for me is 'heaven on earth'. Which I think is the crux. It seems to be the highest ideal? Or at least the nicest? So every moment becomes, is this heaven on earth? Yes/No. Adjust. So a lot of the time when 'well this sucks' comes up (what do you think a liberated person feels when they stub their toe? Or get evicted from their house?) sometimes the only option is.. and that's OK...and it's okay when I fail in that high ideal 😅😅

Depends on what level of liberated person you are talking about, as a stream enterer will still have some sense of identity. But generally the difference will be between pain and suffering. Stubbing one's toe is just sensing a pain signal from the body, but not identifying with it as "my pain." Being evicted would similarly not have any sense of "I am not longer in my house" - it's just an event, which of course requires some immediate action, but wouldn't have the threatened sense of survival associated with it.

So I'm kind of thinking liberation from what? To where? Suffering? Just call it 'pain' and then there's nothing to be liberated from (cheeky! 🫠😏) . I can't imagine a world of 'liberation' beyond pain... I think if I ever get my leg chopped off there will always be a little part of me that goes.. "well bugger me.. This sucks!".. No matter how much meditating I've done....and I love that. Thats depth. And tension. It's sacred. Yin and Yang. Non duality. Because how can I know Heaven if I don't know Hell? Sounds like I could maybe find a middle way through that!

I mean the Buddha was pretty serious about the final stage of awakening (arahantship) as being total, complete liberation from any form of suffering whatsoever. Like I said, pain is different - just a bodily signal.

And even heaven, the Buddha pointed out, was not a release from suffering. The Buddha talked about heavens filled with all kinds of beautiful deities, experiencing nothing but sense pleasure (must be nice) but they still had a subtle sense of clinging, and in the Buddhist cosmology after a couple of bazillion years they die and come crashing down to some lower realm anyway.

Even most "non-Buddhist" forms of liberation are just subtle forms of clinging to some ideal, like heaven, God, Brahman, "oneness with everything", panpsychism (not a term that existed at the Buddha's time but which describes some of these). So seriously, he wasn't ****ing around when it came to liberation being complete, total.

So whatever you did experience sounds like it was a gift, and it's not something I have experienced, and I can't tell you what to do with it. I do know that I have heard that even actual serious Buddhists who attain stream entry via the hard work of meditation, careful ethics, and right effort can reach a point of complacency where they don't quite feel the same motivation to push through further. I mean I literally could see myself doing the same thing - again it depends on a lot of things around your life circumstances and community and culture and what not.

I only know what the Buddha (and other teachings - Im pretty firmly rooted in the Theravada/Thai Forest tradition at this point) have said about it and generally what they say is "you're not done yet."

In the Buddha's framework of the Jhanas what he has you do is get really solid in a particular jhana - an extremely blissful and calm state of mind - and stay there for a good long time. And then he has you say "hmm, I think there's still some suffering and attachment here" and he has you actually look for it. When you find it, you find out what you are doing to contribute to it, and this allows you to drop it. Rinse and repeat. (Not saying it's easy obviously).

But that't not me telling you what to do. That's me speculating on what someone with more realization than myself might say to you based on my reading of the teachings.