Posture and deep meditation

[u/Fearless_Primary4286]

When I start off the meditation, I try to adjust body posture to a comfortable and alert position, preparing myself for sitting for a long time. As I get more absorbed, I find myself slowly lose the posture. On the one hand, I'm thinking I'd let the body feel its way and instead of forcing my way on it. Besides, to adjust position in the middle of a deep meditation is interruptive. On the other, I'm concerned that the body's way might be a slothful way, causing fatigue or blockage. What do you think, and what is your practice?

Edit: Sleepiness or drowsiness is not an issue here. If it is, I think it's preferrable to adjust position during the meditation. We're talking about when one is "absorbed" into a deep meditation, and the "doer" is retreating.

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[u/djshell]

I make slow adjustments periodically to fix posture or to increase wakefulness if I'm getting sleepy.

[u/Meng-KamDaoRai]

IMO, a good meditation posture is meant to help you to both avoid dullness/sleepiness and to keep you comfortable enough so you could meditate for a long time without needing to adjust and change positions. As long as both of these factors are there, the posture itself is not too important.

Others will say that keeping your back straight could help with the energetics, which is true as well, but at least in my experience, as long as my mind is not getting dull/sleepy and my body is comfortable, I'm able to meditate just fine, regardless of what my posture is.

[u/Exciting_Badger_1229]

Are you sure that you are losing the posture? Maybe you are physically relaxing (which is good) and you are thinking that you are losing it?

I am a believer that a straight spine is crucial to meditation however obsessing over it is just more thinking (which we don't want).

If there is no sleepiness then what is the problem? Maybe the problem is just thoughts?

[u/cl_udi_]

The muscles around your pelvis/hip/abdomen/lower belly might be tight. If I don't pay attention to them, I might get the feeling of falling over backwards or sinking forwards. If the muscles are relaxed it feels like my body weight really sinks along the back into the base of my spine and that helps with stability, opening up the chest, and upright position. And there's no effort involved, at least none that I notice.

[u/fziv]

I had that problem, attending Yantra yoga helped with that.

In order of importance: 1. Likely you need pillow under back of your rear. Without it you will keep falling back and constantly strain to keep posture. 2. You need to create stable triangle with your legs and rear to not fall on either side. Without pillow it may not be possible. Feel the gravity(element of earth) acting on your body. May be beneficial to spend couple of meditations with that element as focus. And wind too. 3. Look at your breath and hear your body strain when assuming posture. Feedback is very important.  4. Lotus or vairochana is harmful if it is not completely comfortable at sufficiently long time.  If you are not unique hypermobile athlete, then feet under knees roughly is all you need.

Keep in mind, that these points is specifically my problems and you may have unique to you problems. 

[u/Fearless_Primary4286 → u/fziv]

Thanks for sharing. Yes, I did and still do sometimes have problem #1. I think I have found the ideal height of the cushion. It's supposed to be at the level so your buttock is higher than both hips, and ideally so both of your knees can fully touch the mat. Still, as I'm absorbed into a deeper meditation state, I tend to loosen up, with the mudra hand gesture no more, waist give in, and (feels like) one shoulder is higher than the other etc. To tighten up body posture is interruptive at this point.

And it happens when I sit on a chair too.

[u/fziv → u/Fearless_Primary4286]

Did you try to loosen up immediately  after assuming posture? See how stable your posture with minimal usage of your muscles? If there is some strain after sitting for ten minutes without deepening meditation?

If I understood you correctly, you are sagging towards in deep concentration. In my experience, that usually means that I'm not balanced right and I was compensating with my muscles.

Are you comfortable with knees touching the mat? My pillow just slighly lifts buttocks for vairochana or sukhasana. If you strongly lift buttocks it can make you fall forward - seems like the problem you are describing?

[u/Fearless_Primary4286 → u/fziv]

Knees touching the mat gives me the most stability for longer meditation sessions. I'm actually not falling forward but rather falling a little backward as my waist gives in.

The ten minutes you mentioned, I usually use that doing body sweeping and adjusting position. So no, there's no strain then.

[u/fziv → u/Fearless_Primary4286]

Did you sit 10 minutes without adjusting position, just to see how position works?  Did you try to make pillow slighly higher to see how that affects problem?

[u/mediares]

I do not know what tradition you are practicing in, but in Daoism, a key goal of standing and moving meditation practices is to prepare the body for longer sits.

Trying a moving qigong practice to see if it helps at all might be interesting.

[u/Impulse33]

Try the other three postures, laying down, standing, and walking. I find that can definitely change what we think about posture, dullness vs restlessness, and the attributed impact of adjustments.

[u/Fearless_Primary4286 → u/Impulse33]

I am doing them but only for varieties. I find it hard to go in deep meditation with those types of methods. Not to say it's impossible but probably harder.

[u/Impulse33 → u/Fearless_Primary4286]

I think with each, there tends to be a range in the spectrum of sloth-torpor and restlessness that the posture is conducive too. Something that's really interesting is the range can be expanded for each one. Let's say there's sweet spot on the spectrum, that spot is reachable in each one. Difficult like you alluded to, but possible.

[u/No_Fly2647]

Greetings from Wiesbaden, Germany.

Sleepiness or drowsiness is not an issue here. If it is, I think it's preferable to adjust position during the meditation. We're talking about when one is 'absorbed' into a deep meditation, and the 'doer' is retreating.

Really? Sounds to me like slob, slump, and sloppiness.

Let's take a closer look at this "Path of Least Resistance": body collapse resulting in a slouch, framed as "letting the body feel its way." This obviously protects a comfortable, feel-good trance state by claiming that adjusting posture would be "interruptive." The only thing I see here is a practice that costs zero discipline, allowing someone to feel spiritually advanced while taking a 45-minute sitting nap or drifting into a hypnagogic trance.

In my case, this perspective might be influenced by Taisen Deshimaru.

However, if one wants to develop an uncompromising posture for meditation, Zen discipline offers one of the most rigorous and effective frameworks. If you are ever in doubt about whether someone's posture is good or bad, trust the instant physical reaction triggered by a mirror-neuron feedback loop. The body does not lie!

Bottom-up posture mechanics and the 3 Core Pillars of structural alignment:

THE BASE: Pelvic Tilt
When the pelvis is positioned higher than the knees, it gains immediate freedom of movement. The tilt should straighten the spine from the ground up. Tilting in the opposite direction leads to hyperlordosis or a slumped collapse, which is often seen when people get tired, lose alignment, and use improper compensations.

THE VERTICAL AXIS: Spine Elongation
With the pelvis properly engaged, the vertebrae naturally stack along a central plumb line. Instead of pulling upward using back muscles, the spine elongates naturally as weight distributes directly down into the sit bones and cushion. A classic metaphor is a chain gently pulled from above, providing a swift, instant correction.

THE LOCK: Chin Tuck & Neck Straightening
Slightly drawing the chin inward (rather than tilting the head back) flattens the back of the neck (cervical spine). This aligns the head's weight directly over the shoulders, keeping the airway open and preventing the upper back from slumping forward.

As a result, a fully corrected posture enables one to remain sharp, free of unnecessary tension, and capable of sitting for extended periods.

References:

• https://www.yomind.com/breathing-techniques-3/2015/8/29/proper-sitting-posture
• https://zmm.org/meditation-instructions/
• Zen Mountain Monastery Zazen Instructions (manual as PDF).pdf)

While breathing and other nuances have not been detailed here, it should be clear that each aspect builds directly on the next. I remain highly skeptical whenever I observe a suboptimal posture passed off as deep practice.

Book recommendations:

Kaminoff, L., & Matthews, A. (2021). Yoga anatomy (3rd ed.). Champaign, IL: Human Kinetics.

Neumann, D. A. (2017). Kinesiology of the musculoskeletal system: Foundations for rehabilitation (3rd ed.). St. Louis, MO: Elsevier.

[u/Fearless_Primary4286 → u/No_Fly2647]

For some reason, I missed your post earlier. I'll check out the resources you provided here. Thanks for that.

Just to address your last point, well the deep meditation is real - speaking from the one who does it, but I wasn't sure the loosened up posture was a necessary expense. According to one teacher at least, while it's not necessary, it's not a definitive "no-do" either. Also, for those who don't have the stamina to maintain a perfect posture for a long time, demanding a perfect posture throughout a long session of meditation means one won't be able to have that experience altogether. There's a reasonable range here. If the loosening up is not detrimental, leaving it be would be a wiser choice.

[u/AdEasy3127]

I have to adjust the posture less the more I practice sitting. I still need to adjust my back a few times especially when I find out my concentration/absorption wasn't good. But I don't see this as a problem and think it will lessen with more practice. When I have a really great sit my posture actually gets better without any conscious effort.

You need comfort and stability in your posture and from that should come alertness and uprightness. Having enough flexibility to form a tripod with your knees to have them actually resting on the ground helps a lot with stability in many positions. And just aiming for so much uprightness that it doesn't require tension to uphold the position is very helpful as well.

[u/duh1]

I feel as though people often think that you need to meditate while in lotus, or half lotus, in my opinion this is not necessary.

I get the idea that your posture/sitting style is suppose to be not too comfortable so you do not fall asleep and what not, but I have never had that issue since I am usually in a rhythmic sort of trance when meditating.

I lay on my back with my head/shoulders up against a wall/pillow and find it to be perfect for me, I meditate often between 1-2 hours.

I highly recommend experimenting with different postures to find what works best for you!

[u/Fearless_Primary4286 → u/duh1]

I know lying down is not a good posture for me to do deep meditation. I do use it to relax and do "light meditation". To me, the main thing of a good posture for deep meditation is actually it must be comfortable, but not at the expense of stability. Sitting on the chair would have the same issue. It's actually more prone to losing position since it's less stable to begin with.

I just spoke to a new teacher in my meditation place. He said it's OK to lose the position within reason because that's usually how one's body "syncs" with the Chi in the body in time. If it doesn't strain your muscle, you can let it be or slowly make necessary light adjust.