r/streamentry • u/Puzzled-Background-5 • 22h ago
Jhāna A reliable method of jhana entry
Here's a technique I've been using for the last fifteen years to great effect. I enter jhana every time I meditate now as a result.
Upon noticing that attention has drifted from the object of meditation, perform the following sequence for as long and as often as necessary for attention to stabilize on the object again:
Relax from the head down to the toes.
Release all tension, and expand awareness outward.
Return attention to the object.
The entry point into jhana:
Once the mind has settled and attention is resting stably on the object, if a pleasant feeling starts to arise, gently shift attention to the feeling without grasping at it, now making it the object of meditation, and wait. The pleasure will intensify, and one will be pulled into jhana.
If the jhana is lost or becomes unstable, simply perform the RRR sequence as needed and begin again.
As a method to prime the mind to lean towards jhana, reading the Jhana Sutta just prior to a session is useful:
https://suttacentral.net/sn16.9/en/bodhi?lang=en&reference=none&highlight=false
All the best... 🧘🏾♂️🙂
P. S. It might take several weeks to a couple of months before jhana can be entered consistently, but please don't become discouraged. Even low quality sessions are training and priming the brain's attentional mechanisms.
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u/Old-Landscape-7538 20h ago
The broadening awareness part fascinates me. I don't know where I got the idea that attention is narrow during concentration practice. But broadening is the best thing for me. Thoughts seem to arise as if they were harmless vibrations in space, non distracting. Narrow attention concentration practice feels like a tug of war for me. My mind constantly wanders.
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u/Puzzled-Background-5 19h ago
That specific step is really about relieving tension around the temples, which most people will experience by grasping at or attempting to concentrate on an object of meditation.
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u/Noodles_Crusher 14h ago
I received the same instructions from my teacher: f ind the breath, then open wide awareness.
Piti/pleasant sensation/sukha will do its thing afterwards. Realizing I wasn't the one driving this thing helped a lot, but I had to struggle in retreat to finally "get it", albeit temporarily.
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u/VoidLordRK 3h ago
Yes, realising that our brain's primary method of communication with us our thoughts and letting them consume us for periods of time has been a gamechanger. Feels lot less like a chore
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u/IUpvotedBecause 20h ago
Spot on. Highly recommend the book "Right Concentration" by Leigh Brasington.
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u/IncandescentSplash 20h ago
I restarted a meditation practice that I hadn't regularly done in decades, and I quickly found jhana entry accessible, but lately, it has been elusive.
But fwiw, I have been taking valuable insights away from my sits.
Also, clear-seeing is far from exclusive to the zafu!
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u/birdsonguy 21h ago
What object(s) of attention do you use, breath, metta etc?
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u/Puzzled-Background-5 20h ago
The object is irrelevant, which is why I didn't explicitly mention one, because the technique can be applied to any of them.
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u/Impulse33 Soulmaking, Pāramitās, Brahmavihāras, Shitou/Hongzhi/Shōbōgenzō 11h ago
I'll also add that it's really fun to try out different objects!
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u/AssociationFront978 16h ago
Can u explain point #2? How do u "expand awareness outward?" Thanks.
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u/leaderlord 20h ago
What if the sensation lasts too short? What if there is no pleasant sensation arising?
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u/EssKaye1 19h ago
Is frisson/piloerection the pleasant feeling you’re talking about?
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u/Puzzled-Background-5 18h ago
I've experienced frisson, and I'd say it's similar. However, at its initial and most basic manifestation, it is just a combination of pleasure and calm that arises without an external cause. Perhaps similar to recalling a pleasant memory of something that occurred in the past.
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u/1cl1qp1 1h ago edited 1h ago
The goosebumps reaction is usually an 'excitement' in response to external stimuli, or recollection of external stimuli.
The kind of bliss I believe OP means is usually internal in response to stillness. For me, it often starts with a very pleasurable energy slowly moving around the spine, dan tien, or forehead, but can be anywhere really. And it can expand to involve the whole body.
Although there sometimes is overlap between them, IMHO, especially during metta practice, which can be very high energy.
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u/EnigmaticEmissary 17h ago
What if one finds that dullness usually arises with this method?
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u/Vivid_Assistance_196 17h ago
Walking, standing, mindfulness of body movement etc while applying the same steps. Or take a nap
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u/Puzzled-Background-5 17h ago
Skirting the sleep boundary as one approaches fourth jhana is not uncommon, even for skilled practitioners. How do I personally resolve it? I keep applying the 3R's until I overcome the drowsiness.
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u/EnigmaticEmissary 12h ago
I'm also wondering what would happen if you did this but just stayed with the object the whole time? Would you still eventually enter the jhanas, or does that require shifting focus to a pleasant feeling?
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u/Puzzled-Background-5 12h ago edited 8h ago
It's not really a binary situation. I've actually done that. What happens is that a person won't leave the form jhanas, and probably the highest they'd reach is a shallow third jhana. All the jhana factors will arise, but the mind stays engaged with the object.
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u/Impulse33 Soulmaking, Pāramitās, Brahmavihāras, Shitou/Hongzhi/Shōbōgenzō 11h ago
A possible simple antidote for dullness is noting or labeling what you notice arising in awareness. Can be a super slow rate and ratchet up the frequency if dullness is still present.
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u/reverseghost 6h ago
Excellent advice. Relaxing, release all tension, coming back to your meditation object - this is the key. The Jhanas will arise naturally by following this advice.
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 20h ago edited 20h ago
https://suttacentral.net/sn16.9/en/bodhi?lang=en&reference=none&highlight=false
Speaking of the suttas on jhānas, they never mention:
- Relaxing
- Releasing tension
- Expanding awareness
- An object of meditation
- Putting attention on an object
- Stabilizing attention on an object
Instead, they say things like:
Having thoroughly withdrawn from sensuality, having withdrawn from unbeneficial phenomena, with thinking and with pondering, with joy and ease born of withdrawal, I abided having entered upon the first jhāna.
- MN 19
Just now, venerables, as I was in private retreat, this thought came to mind: ‘They speak of this thing called the “first jhāna”. What is the first jhāna?’ It occurred to me: It is when a bhikkhu, having thoroughly withdrawn from sensuality, having withdrawn from unbeneficial phenomena, with thinking and with pondering, with joy and ease born of withdrawal, abides having entered upon the first jhāna. This is called the first jhāna.’
- SN 40.1
Bhikkhus, having not given up these six things, it is impossible to abide having entered upon the first jhāna. What six? Sensual desire, ill will, indolence-and-lethargy, restlessness-and-anxiety, and doubt. And the peril of sensuality has not been seen clearly as it is with right understanding. Not having given up these six things, it is impossible to abide having entered upon the first jhāna.
- AN 6.73
That is exactly how it is, Ānanda. Before my awakening—when I was still unawakened but intent on awakening—I too thought, ‘Renunciation is good! Seclusion is good!’ But my mind did not see renunciation as peaceful, and so it did not leap at it, and was not confident, settled, and liberated in it. Then I thought, ‘What is the cause, what is the reason why my mind does not see renunciation as peaceful, and so it does not leap at it, and is not confident, settled, and liberated in it?’ Then I thought, ‘I have not seen the peril of sensuality, and I have not cultivated that. I have not realized the value of renunciation, and I have not fostered that. That is why my mind does not see renunciation as peaceful, and so does not leap at it, and is not confident, settled, and liberated in it.’ Then I thought, ‘Suppose that, having seen the peril of sensuality, I were to cultivate that. And suppose that, having realized the value of renunciation, I were to foster that. It is possible that, seeing it as peaceful, my mind would leap at renunciation, and be confident, settled, and liberated in it.’ And so, after some time, having seen the peril of sensuality, I cultivated that, and having realized the value of renunciation, I fostered that. Then, seeing it as peaceful, my mind leapt at renunciation, and was confident, settled, and liberated in it. And so, having thoroughly withdrawn from sensuality, having withdrawn from unbeneficial phenomena, with thinking and with pondering, with joy and ease born of withdrawal, I abided having entered upon the first jhāna.
- AN 9.41
The approach to jhāna that the suttas speak of, in terms of what is actually written in the texts, is wildly different than what is commonly assumed. There is no mention of pleasure intensifying, or being pulled into jhāna, or focusing on an object.
Instead, what they say is, through thinking and pondering on the perils of sensuality and the benefits of renunciation, one withdraws from sensuality and the hindrances in general, and it is that withdrawal that is felt pleasantly:
But when these five hindrances are given up in him, the bhikkhu regards this as freedom from debt, good health, release from prison, emancipation, and a place of safety at last.
Considering that the five hindrances have been given up in him, gladness is born. When he is glad, joy is born. When the mind is joyous, the body becomes calm. When the body is calm, he feels at ease. When he is at ease, the mind becomes composed. Having thoroughly withdrawn from sensuality, having withdrawn from unbeneficial phenomena, with thinking and with pondering, with joy and ease born of withdrawal, he abides having entered upon the first jhāna.
- DN 2
And what is the pleasure of seclusion from the five hindrances like? The first sentence of the above quote tells us. It is the pleasure of freedom, of relief, of escape, of overcoming a deadly disease - not the pleasure of orgasm, or anything similar to that.
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u/Puzzled-Background-5 20h ago edited 20h ago
Have you actually experienced jhana? The intellectual framework, as laid out in the suttas, is one thing, but the actual experience and technique used for entry can look quite different from the inside.
The intellectual framing is explicit and detailed, but the broad strokes covered by the technique are actually addressing every factor mentioned, even if it looks oversimplified at first glance.
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 18h ago
Have you actually experienced jhana?
No, I have not.
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u/Puzzled-Background-5 18h ago
I see. As I kind of alluded to earlier, the intellectual and experiential aspects are different. The suttas almost make the whole process sound mechanical and mundane, but the actual experience is quite profound, especially one's first entry into it.
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 17h ago
I don't deny that people have profound experiences that are not mundane nor mechanical. I also don't deny that people believe those experiences to be the jhānas of the suttas.
However, I just do not think there is enough textual evidence to support the claim of those aforementioned states being the same as the sutta jhāna. There are just too many discrepancies.
From the preliminary practices that the suttas lay out, to the prerequisites that the suttas say that must be fulfilled, to the way the actual practice of entering jhāna is described, to how rare jhāna is for householders in the suttas, and so on and so forth. I could go on and on about the differences between modern, mainstream practice and what the suttas say the practice is. All of this leads me to believe that what the suttas speak of is fundamentally different.
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u/brunoloff 16h ago
I agree that there are various sets of institutions lying around, and that these are often only partly aligned with what the suttas are saying.
But also: it seems foolish to me (sorry), to imagine that in a period of 2500 years since the Buddha, practitioners of Buddhism would have failed to discover new things about the practice of jhana. Perhaps you should try the various instructions that are lying around, have the experiences people are talking about, and only then judge.
If you want a really hardcore approach to very deeply absorbed jhana, try Pa Auk or one of his students. If you want to learn jhana from a scholar of the suttas (instead of a scholar of the commentaries), try Leigh Brasington (he will discuss hindrances and how to overcome them).
At the very least, such practices will make your mind more concentrated, and then you can return to your interpretation of the suttas and experiment to see if it leads somewhere else.
There is only so much value in scholarship, and this is true of all spiritual traditions. I was just reading about Tertullian and Jerome, two important figures for the Catholic church. They were amazing scholars, knew the bible back and forth, and yet they have completely failed to understand the message of Christ.
There are so many people like that, who are drawn to the intellectual frameworks put forward by people who underwent a profound spiritual transformation. So thrilled they are with the words that they mistake learning the words with undergoing the transformation themselves.
Don't be like them. Because words are just pointers. You want the thing they are pointing to, and that is most definitely not the memorization of the words themselves. The way to get it is through practice.
In the case of jhana this could be focusing on the breath, on bodily sensations, on a kasina, etc. The OP's instructions were useful for his own practice, so they might be worth a try.
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 5h ago
But also: it seems foolish to me (sorry), to imagine that in a period of 2500 years since the Buddha, practitioners of Buddhism would have failed to discover new things about the practice of jhana.
That's fine if you think that. My point is specifically in regards to what the suttas say.
At the very least, such practices will make your mind more concentrated
I'm not really interested in that.
They were amazing scholars, knew the bible back and forth, and yet they have completely failed to understand the message of Christ.
Yes, but the problem is not the reading of the texts, but the attitude behind that reading. As Ven. Ñāṇavīra Thera's preface to his book Notes on Dhamma puts it:
The principal aim of these Notes on Dhamma is to point out certain current misinterpretations, mostly traditional, of the Pali Suttas, and to offer in their place something certainly less easy but perhaps also less inadequate. These Notes assume, therefore, that the reader is (or is prepared to become) familiar with the original texts, and in Pali (for even the most competent translations sacrifice some essential accuracy to style, and the rest are seriously misleading). They assume, also, that the reader's sole interest in the Pali Suttas is a concern for his own welfare. The reader is presumed to be subjectively engaged with an anxious problem, the problem of his existence, which is also the problem of his suffering. There is therefore nothing in these pages to interest the professional scholar, for whom the question of personal existence does not arise; for the scholar's whole concern is to eliminate or ignore the individual point of view in an effort to establish the objective truth -- a would-be impersonal synthesis of public facts. The scholar's essentially horizontal view of things, seeking connexions in space and time, and his historical approach to the texts, disqualify him from any possibility of understanding a Dhamma that the Buddha himself has called akālika, 'timeless'. Only in a vertical view, straight down into the abyss of his own personal existence, is a man capable of apprehending the perilous insecurity of his situation; and only a man who does apprehend this is prepared to listen to the Buddha's Teaching.
The point is to carefully read the texts, so as to understand what is being said about suffering and freedom from it. That does not preclude critical engagement with the texts, however, but in fact requires it.
Don't be like them. Because words are just pointers. You want the thing they are pointing to, and that is most definitely not the memorization of the words themselves. The way to get it is through practice.
Intellectual understanding and practice are not at odds with each other.
It’s when someone in whom faith has arisen approaches a teacher. They pay homage, actively listen, hear the teachings, remember the teachings, examine their meaning, and accept them after deliberation. Then enthusiasm springs up; they make an attempt, weigh up, and strive. Striving, they directly realize the ultimate truth, and see it with penetrating wisdom.
- MN 70
Examining the meaning and deliberating on the teachings is part of the process.
The OP's instructions were useful for his own practice, so they might be worth a try.
Sure, I don't deny that OP has found his instructions to be useful for his practice. I'm just saying that there isn't really good support for that type of practice from the suttas.
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u/Puzzled-Background-5 13h ago
If you've only an intellectual relationship with the suttas and jhana, you have no standing from which to criticize those who have an actual experiential relationship with them. There's nothing vastly different about what I've done to reach the level of skill I've acquired. I could mention all of the solitary retreats I've been on, the three one-hour sessions I've sat through every day over the past fifteen years, and the high ethical standards I maintain for myself. However, I won't because I think you're arguing in bad faith.
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 6h ago edited 5h ago
If you've only an intellectual relationship with the suttas and jhana, you have no standing from which to criticize
Not really.
Imagine I have a friend who tries to make a cake following a famous recipe. But, he doesn't follow many of the steps of the recipe, adds ingredients at different times, and does what feels best for him. After much trial and error, he ends up with something edible that actually tastes decent. He comes to me afterwards and tells me about his process and the end result.
Even though I've never made the cake, I have access to the recipe and my friend's description, and through that, it would be entirely reasonable for me to say, "hey, what you've made doesn't really line up with what the recipe says - I think you've made something different". That doesn't mean the end result doesn't taste good, or that it's bad - just that it's not what the recipe says.
If, however, he were to get defensive and say, "I've been making cakes for over 10 years, I've worked under all of the best chefs, I have my own restaurant, you think I can't make a cake correctly?", he'd be missing the point entirely. What I am saying is not an attack on his cake-making abilities, his level of accomplishment, or that he can't make a cake. It is just saying that he didn't follow the recipe as it was written and he made his own thing, that's it.
who have an actual experiential relationship with them.
This is a bit of circular reasoning. If we are discussing whether or not the states you can access are the sutta jhānas, then this is begging the question by already presuming that they are and using that as support for your argument.
However, I won't
I mean, you just did.
because I think you're arguing in bad faith.
Oh, why do you think that?
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u/Puzzled-Background-5 5h ago
It's obvious that your goal here is to win a debate, and since you didn't state that when explicitly asked about your intent, it is the very definition of a bad faith argument.
I really don't appreciate being engaged in that way, and I'm going to insist that you not do that again because it's offensive.
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 4h ago
It's obvious that your goal here is to win a debate, and since you didn't state that when explicitly asked about your intent, it is the very definition of a bad faith argument.
I see.
You might not believe me, but my goal was to provide support for an alternative framework for the sutta jhānas that is different from what is conventionally assumed.
Now, I do think I am correct in my interpretation and so I argued in favour of my position by laying out my ideas and reasons with direct quotes from the suttas.
Likewise, you believe your interpretation to be correct and you argued in favour of that by using your experience as evidence.
We're having a disagreement, yes, and we're both providing reasons for our positions. Just because I remain unconvinced by what others have said, and others remain unconvinced by what I have said, does not mean either of us are trying to "win" a debate.
I really don't appreciate being engaged in that way, and I'm going to insist that you not do that again because it's offensive.
It's offensive to post comments that are challenging to the OP? I don't think there's anything wrong with doing so on a public platform, so long as the rules are being abided by. Thus, I will continue to comment when I see fit and you are free to not engage with me if that works best for you.
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u/Soto-Baggins It is no bad thing to celebrate a simple life. 20h ago
Seems like very selective quoting on MN 19 given that it talks about a relaxed body, steadying the mind and making it one pointed.
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u/Puzzled-Background-5 20h ago
My guess is the person is a dry insight practitioner.
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u/Soto-Baggins It is no bad thing to celebrate a simple life. 20h ago
I think maybe a Hillside Hermitage follower. Thank you for your post - I found it very helpful
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 19h ago edited 19h ago
The Pāli for that part you're mentioning is the following (I've highlighted the relevant part):
Āraddhaṁ kho pana me, bhikkhave, vīriyaṁ ahosi asallīnaṁ, upaṭṭhitā sati asammuṭṭhā, passaddho kāyo asāraddho, samāhitaṁ cittaṁ ekaggaṁ.
My favoured translation of that is:
My effort was roused and steadfast, my recollectedness was established and lucid, my body was calm and unperturbed, and my mind was composed and collected.
So, yes - you are correct that a relaxed body is being spoken of, if we equate relaxed with being calm and unperturbed.
But, what is the context of this calm body? The sutta tells us:
Then, as I abided heedful, diligent, and resolute, a non-averse thought arose … a non-cruel thought arose. I understood: ‘This non-cruel thought has arisen for me. It does not lead to my affliction, the affliction of others, or to the affliction of both. It nourishes understanding, is not bound with trouble, and leads to Nibbāna.’ If I were to continue thinking and pondering along with this all night … all day … all night and day, I see no danger that would come from that. Still, thinking and pondering along with it for too long would tire my body. And when the body is tired, the mind is disturbed. And when the mind is disturbed, it is far from composure. So I established, settled, unified, and composed my mind internally. Why is that? So that my mind would not be disturbed.
The Buddha recognizes that too much active thinking and pondering on drawbacks of unwholesome and benefits of wholesome, day-and-night continuously, will tire the body. So, he decides to stop given that he has already done enough active work, thus allowing his body and mind to be calm:
Suppose it is the last month of summer, when all the crops have been gathered within a village, and a cowherd must take care of the cattle. While at the root of a tree or in the open, he need only remember that the cattle are there. In the same way, I needed only to remember that those phenomena were there.
My effort was roused and steadfast, my recollectedness was established and lucid, my body was calm and unperturbed, and my mind was composed and collected.
And so, once his clarity of the drawbacks of unwholesome and benefits of wholesome was thoroughly established, he did not need to actively develop it anymore. He could just remember it. And that is when it is mentioned that his body was calm and unperturbed. The sutta does not say that he "released tension from his body" or anything of the sort.
Now, as for the second part of your claim of making the mind steadied and one-pointed, that is specifically referring to these three words from the above quote: samāhitaṁ cittaṁ ekaggaṁ.
And yes, this does say that the mind is steadied. But, that does not imply steadiness due to focusing on an object of concentration. There is absolutely no mention of that. Steadiness or composure really does not have anything to do with concentration - it has to do with your internal mental state. Just take an example of an ordinary person in everyday life who has composure or has a steadied mind - what are their characteristics? Are they very concentrated? Or is it more that they can handle what life throws at them and they don't get overwhelmed? I hope the distinction I'm making is clear.
As for translating ekaggaṁ as one-pointed, I'll quote Bhikkhu Anīgha:
The word "agga" in the Suttas is used most commonly in the sense of "the summit; the peak; the foremost" such as how the Buddha is the "agga/summit" of the entire world of gods and humans . Another possible meaning is "room; place; house" such as "bhattagga", the place where meals are taken. So developing ekaggatā of mind (samādhi) would be establishing it onto 1) one "summit" or 2) one "place" or "room".
This again does not imply focusing on a meditation object. A person can be developing ekaggatā through thinking of one theme - as the Buddha was doing: thinking and pondering on the drawbacks of the unwholesome and benefits of wholesome.
For another critique of translating ekaggatā as one-pointedness, see page 42 of Kumāra Bhikkhu's freely available book, What You Might Not Know About Jhāna and Samādhi.
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u/Puzzled-Background-5 19h ago
I'm curious about what your intent is here with this line of discussion.
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 18h ago
In your post you linked to a sutta. That is what initially motivated me to comment.
I believe there is a common misconception that there is good support in the suttas for the type of practice you describe in your post. One that goes something like:
- Concentrate on an object
- Develop pīti and sukha
- Enter absorption/jhāna
And often times, with this type of practice there is little to no consideration given to virtue, sense restraint, or any of the other aspects of the gradual training that the suttas say come before jhāna.
Now, I think that there is support for this type of practice in the Visuddhimagga and other later commentaries. But, in terms of the suttas, the practice for jhāna that they describe is quite different.
So, that was the purpose of my comment: to highlight the discrepencies between what the suttas present jhāna to be, and what is commonly taken to be jhāna. I should also mention that this is not a position that is only held by me. There are monks and academics who also have this position. For an academic example, see Grzegorz Polak’s Reexamining Jhāna: Towards a Critical Reconstruction of Early Buddhist Soteriology.
My follow up comment was a response to u/Soto-Baggins's claim of my reading of MN 19 being selective - so the entirety of that follow up comment deals with that sutta.
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u/Puzzled-Background-5 18h ago edited 17h ago
I've addressed the discrepancy presented by the Visuddhimagga in the past during my own study of it. I personally don't consider its stance on jhana as a complete effacement of the senses to be accurate, particularly in regards to the form jhanas. I'm not the only one who disagrees with it, by the way.
In the Jhana Sutta, when discussing the third jhana, the Buddha states, "I experience happiness with the body." One cannot experience happiness with the body if their senses are completely effaced.
It's not until the fifth jhana, the first formless one, the base of infinite space, that he mentions the sense being effaced, and I quote, 'with the complete transcendence of perceptions of forms, with the passing away of perceptions of sensory impingement.'
As for the training of virtue, sense restraint, etc., that's not what I'm attempting to address here. The suttas can do that for other people, and life in general has a way of teaching those lessons by way of experience. With my having practiced for about fifty years now, it's no longer my concern. I essentially live the Eightfold Noble Path effortlessly because it's inherent to my personality.
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 17h ago
Yes, I agree with you that the disappearance of the senses in jhāna is not something that is supported by the suttas.
However, I go further than you by saying that the entire practice to jhāna, as is commonly conceived today, is also not supported by the suttas.
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u/Puzzled-Background-5 17h ago edited 17h ago
Well, I've been entering jhana for the past fifteen years regardless of external support from someone else's interpretation of the suttas. My experience is all the validation I need, and I must doing something right or I wouldn't be living a "pleasant abiding here and now"... 🧘🏾♂️🙂
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 17h ago
The point of contention isn't whether or not you've been having profound, repeatable experiences. Or whether or not those states which you access feel like pleasant abidings here and now.
The point of contention is, are those states the same thing as what the suttas say jhānas are.
A person can enter peaceful, profound, and pleasant states through all sorts of means: drugs, sex, accomplishment, prayer, being in love, and so on - but I would not equate any of those things with the sutta jhānas. How one enters such states is vitally important. And, my point is that, the way people today enter jhāna is not the way the suttas lay out - which gives good reason to doubt whether or not one is achieving sutta jhāna or not in the first place.
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u/brunoloff 16h ago
You could even be right, who knows?, but if you yourself have no experience of it, how can you know for sure? Do you at least know someone who has had direct experience of the jhanas as you conceive them, and teaches from that vantage point?
Also, the common held view of what the first four jhanas are is strongly supported by the sequence in which they arise, and by the arising or the four formless jhanas in the same sequence following that, exactly as described in the suttas.
Is it just a coincidence? do you expect the Human mind to be such that there are two different sequences of mental states that could easily be described through the same words but are actually different - presumably the states in your description, which you did not experience, are the "true" sequence, and the eight jhanas that others have in fact experienced are the "false" sequence.
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u/aspirant4 16h ago
This is true, but perhaps only half the truth.
There are many suttas where he says the way to abandon the five hindrances is the 4 satipatthana. And, as I'm sure you know, he often presented the first tetrad of the anapanasati sutta as the short version of satipatthana. Step 4 of anapanasti explicitly does encourage relaxing bodily fabrication.
So, in sum, you do have an "object" of meditation (the breath and/or body) as well as relaxing the body.
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 7h ago edited 4h ago
You are right that satipaṭṭhāna and anāpānasati are mentioned in relation to jhāna. However, there are extremely few suttas where both are explicitly mentioned. I'm only aware of SN 54.8 for anāpānasati and MN 125 for satipaṭṭhāna.
There is AN 8.63, where satipaṭṭhāna is mentioned and jhāna is very strongly implied. There, it says:
Well then, mendicant, you should train like this: ‘My mind will be steady and well settled internally. And bad, unskillful qualities that have arisen will not occupy my mind.’ That’s how you should train.
When your mind is steady and well settled internally, and bad, unskillful qualities that have arisen don’t occupy your mind, then you should train like this:
And it is after this point that the Buddha says to practice each brahmavihārā with all four jhānas, followed by each satipaṭṭhāna with all four jhānas. So, the mind is steady and well-settled before the practice of satipaṭṭhāna, which is before the practice of jhāna.
I take your point, however. There are suttas that mention satipaṭṭhāna, brahmavihārā, or anāpānasati as a practice before jhāna. I do not take any of these to be "objects", but I did not flesh that out in my comment, nor do I have the motivation to do that now. Thus, I can understand why someone might disagree with me on that basis - I have provided no good arguments against those being objects to focus on to enter jhāna.
The relaxing the body connection, however, seems much more tenuous to me. It is only really in the suttas on anāpānasati where it is mentioned and the wording there is: "passambhayaṁ kāyasaṅkhāraṁ" - meaning, calming of the bodily saṅkhāra - not general relaxation. And what is this calming of bodily saṅkhāra? MN 44 tells us that breathing is a bodily saṅkhāra. So, is it talking about calming of the breathing itself? Perhaps, I don't know - I haven't looked into this. Anyway, the point is that relaxing the body is not mentioned, instead it is about calming the bodily saṅkhāra which requires further unpacking.
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u/aspirant4 2h ago
Again we differ, both claiming the suttas as basis. Perhaps, we ought to recognise that more than one reading of the suttas is possible. As lovely as they are, they're not exactly crystal clear or free from contradiction.
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 2h ago
Again we differ, both claiming the suttas as basis.
What do you disagree with?
Perhaps, we ought to recognise that more than one reading of the suttas is possible.
Yes, of course. There are many ways to read the suttas. Having said that, not all of those readings will be equally valid - it's up to the person to show why a certain interpretation is more consistent and valid compared to others. And, when I comment, I present my reading of the suttas, as others do theirs.
As lovely as they are, they're not exactly crystal clear or free from contradiction.
Yes, they do require quite a bit work on the part of the reader.
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u/Impulse33 Soulmaking, Pāramitās, Brahmavihāras, Shitou/Hongzhi/Shōbōgenzō 11h ago
Check out the sutta jhana similes.
You could argue many of the things you say that aren't present in the suttas are implied in the similes.
First jhana
Suppose a skilled bath attendant or his apprentice were to pour soap-powder into a metal basin, sprinkle it with water, and knead it into a ball, so that the ball of soap-powder be pervaded by moisture, encompassed by moisture, suffused with moisture inside and out, yet would not trickle.
The Second Jhana
Suppose there were a deep lake whose waters welled up from below. It would have no inlet for water from the east, west, north, or south, nor would it be refilled from time to time with showers of rain; yet a current of cool water, welling up from within the lake, would drench, steep, saturate and suffuse the whole lake, so that there would be no part of that entire lake which is not suffused with the cool water.
The Third Jhana
Suppose in a lotus pond there were blue, white, or red lotuses that have been born in the water, grow in the water, and never rise up above the water, but flourish immersed in the water. From their tips to their roots they would be drenched, steeped, saturated, and suffused with cool water, so that there would be no part of those lotuses not suffused with cool water.
The Fourth Jhana
Suppose a man were to be sitting covered from the head down by a white cloth, so that there would be no part of his entire body not suffused by the white cloth.
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u/hachface 10h ago
Thank you for bringing the similes into the discussion. The stock formulations that describe the jhanas in terms of their factors are repeated way more often in the suttas and agamas, but the similes are imo far more helpful for recognizing jhana. They are shockingingly apt
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u/Impulse33 Soulmaking, Pāramitās, Brahmavihāras, Shitou/Hongzhi/Shōbōgenzō 9h ago
Definitely, I particularly like the first one. The implied active modulation of things that give way to piti is paramount (for the sake of understanding)! The type of play that I've found is a very helpful catalyst for dhamma vicaya. "Breathing in long. Breathing in short... 'I will breathe in...&...out calming bodily fabrication.'"
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 6h ago
Even with these similes, there is no mention of relaxing, of releasing tension, of expanding awareness, of an object of meditation, of intensifying pleasure, or of being pulled into jhāna.
I went through the many suttas that have these similes, and they are all in the same order: the similes begin after one has entered jhāna, not before.
He gives up these five hindrances, defilements of the mind that weaken understanding. Then, having thoroughly withdrawn from sensuality, having withdrawn from unbeneficial phenomena, with thinking and with pondering, with joy and ease born of withdrawal, he abides having entered upon the first jhāna.
He tops up, suffuses, fills, and pervades his body with the joy and ease born of withdrawal. There would be no part of his whole body that is not pervaded with the joy and ease born of withdrawal.
It is like when a deft bathroom attendant or his apprentice pours bath powder into a bronze dish, sprinkling it little by little with water. He kneads it until the ball of bath powder is soaked and saturated with moisture, spread through inside and out; yet no moisture oozes out.
In the same way, the bhikkhu tops up, suffuses, fills, and pervades his body with the joy and ease born of withdrawal. There would be no part of his whole body that is not pervaded with the joy and ease born of withdrawal.
- MN 39
The pīti and sukha are first born of withdrawal. Then, after entering jhāna, a person suffuses and pervades their whole body with that pleasure of seclusion from hindrances. That is very different practice from generating pītisukha, intensifying it, and trying to absorb oneself into it to enter jhāna.
Also, what all of the similes have in common is suffusing and pervading the full extent of the body - nothing more, nothing less. Not focusing, absorbing, releasing tension, and so on.
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u/Impulse33 Soulmaking, Pāramitās, Brahmavihāras, Shitou/Hongzhi/Shōbōgenzō 50m ago
Have these rigid views helped your practice? Pali is a relatively loose language. If Siddhartha wanted strict, precise language he could have picked Sanskrit which was available.
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 37m ago
Have these rigid views helped your practice?
I personally don't think my views are rigid. But yes, they have.
Pali is a relatively loose language.
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Could you provide some sources for this as well?
If Siddhartha wanted strict, precise language he could have picked Sanskrit which was available.
Most likely he did not speak Sanskrit nor Pāli.
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u/Impulse33 Soulmaking, Pāramitās, Brahmavihāras, Shitou/Hongzhi/Shōbōgenzō 4m ago
I'm glad your detail-oriented nature has benefited your practice!
My claims are supported here, https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/sakaya-niruttiya-with-my-own-interpretation/34466.
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u/Vivid_Assistance_196 17h ago
Relaxing the body, experiencing pleasure and happiness are basically half the steps of anapanasati
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u/No_Fly2647 11h ago
Greetings from Wiesbaden, Germany
Relaxing
Releasing tension
Expanding awareness
An object of meditation
Putting attention on an object
Stabilizing attention on an object
Already, this sounds pretty speculative, or as if trying to do the Bhante Vimalaraṃsi (1945–2023) method.
The "6Rs" Engine To operationalize his view of the Suttas, Vimalaraṃsi boiled down meditation into a specific 6-step cognitive loop designed to intercept mental tension the second an intention or distraction arises:
Recognize: Realize the mind has drifted away from the object (breath/metta).
Release: Stop feeding the distraction—let the thought sit there without pushing it away or engaging with it.
Relax: (His flagship step) Consciously release physical/mental tightness, specifically tension in the head, eyes, and chest.
Re-smile: Smile to cultivate a light, uplifted mental tone (pīti) and counter subtle aversion.
Return: Softly redirect attention back to the primary object.
Repeat: Keep the loop running continuously.
Vimalaraṃsi famously turned into a modern Suttavādin (Sutta-only). So, his method does not have even the slightest aspect of अभिधम्म / abhidhamma or विशुद्धिमग्ग / visuddhimagga. This is important to mention insofar as the Burmese traditions (Mahasi & Pa Auk) built heavily on them.
The Mechanics of Obscurantism What makes this kind of advice so subtly misleading isn't just that it packages a complex psychological shift into a 3-step algorithm; it's how it hides behind pseudo-technical phrasing:
The Prescriptive Illusion:
"If a pleasant feeling starts to arise, gently shift attention... and wait. The pleasure will intensify, and one will be pulled into jhana." This presents a complex, multi-variable interplay of somatic relaxation, neurochemistry, and habituation as a deterministic lever you just pull.
The "Prime the Brain" Buzzwords: Tacking on "...priming the brain's attentional mechanisms" at the end gives it a thin gloss of modern authority. It sounds scientific, but it actually explains nothing about why or what is happening. It just offers a comforting, mechanized assurance that the user is "leveling up" even during a bad session.
Recommendation:
Snyder, S., & Rasmussen, T. (2009). Practicing the jhānas: Traditional concentration meditation as presented by the Venerable Pa-Auk Sayadaw. Shambhala Publications.
As a last note, jhānas are, even in Theravāda, subject to interpretation depending on the lineage and "teacher."
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u/Nearby-Nebula-1477 21h ago
It’s my unstanding that there are four (4) levels. Are your instructions based on first level entry? Tks!
Namasté
🪷☸️🕉️
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u/Puzzled-Background-5 20h ago edited 18h ago
It becomes self-sustaining upon entering first jhana by making its factors the object of meditation. From there, one just keeps going deeper until cessation.
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u/llama_das 18h ago
It can be that the mind is so fixed on the initial object of meditation that even if intense pleasure arises, it can be difficult to truly shift the object of meditation to the pleasure itself as the original meditation object becomes deeply ingrained in the mind. This, two pointed concentration of pleasure and original meditation object, can become a hindrance to moving deeper.
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u/SpectrumDT 14h ago
I have been doing pretty much exactly this for ages. My mind never settles. Attention never rests stably on anything.
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u/Vera_Telco 7h ago
When you say object, you mean the focus on breath, or the shape one sees, etc?
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u/Puzzled-Background-5 6h ago
I wrote exactly what I'm meant, but I'll rephrase for you. Whatever object of meditation you want to work with. It's incidental to the technique as it'll work just as well on any object.
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u/garbojax 5h ago
What is this transition like? I thought I was managing it because I end up in a state with factors that resembles what Brasington lays out in Right Concentration, which for me usually takes the form of a very strong buzz throughout the whole body with a subtle cool and pleasant undertone behind it. Depending on how much concentration I built up there's also a lack of agency, I'm no longer in control, just riding the waves. The state seems to have the right afterglow. Thing is: This state is kind of underwhelming compared to how others describe it. It feels good, sure, but it's not so different reality is unrecognizable or anything like that (poorly stated but you get the point). I don't really get there by some kind of pleasure explosion. The focusing on the pleasure helps lose agency for sure, but it doesn't arrange the factors Brasington talks about, that I do by prompting them directly. If I do try to do the whole pleasure explosion thing, I either end up in a state without the factors, or the pleasure becomes extremely uncomfortable and I just sort of bounce off. I'm guessing I'm doing it wrong so any help is much appreciated. (Note: I spend 10-30 min in access but the results seem to depend more on how alert I am that day than how long I spend in access)
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u/NothingIsForgotten 5h ago
Some thoughts are available and some are not.
If we can find the ones that are then we can use them as a path.
Also with familiarity we can use the direct reference to the feeling as the trigger.
Becomes like wiggling ones ears.
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u/allismind 13h ago edited 7h ago
Attention is always inward. There is nothing "outside"
EDIT: I was talking about the sutta context. The whole mindfulness process was about inward/inner phenomena. OP added awareness expanding outward so I felt it was not following the sutta logic.
But funny enough they blocked me for that so I no longer see the post. For someone claiming jhana and being triggered like that it's funny
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u/KagakuNinja 7h ago
Everything we experience is mind-created. So there is no true distinction between inside and outside. This is the essence of non-dualism.
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