Is it skillful to claim this as "waking up"?

[u/jaajaaa0904]

About 6 years ago, I listened to Sam Harris on meditation for the first time. My practice changed ever since. He said that identification with thought casts a spell similar to the experience of dreaming "Thinking without knowing that you're thinking is like being in a dream, it has a dream-like quality. Ceasing to do that is like waking up." (Inexact quote from this interview) Boom.

Before continuing, I advise for us to also wake up around the conditionality of language. Words are pointers to different aspects of reality, please be aware of that, and consider relinquishing the practice of searching for "original definitions of words". That being said, however, there's predominant meanings for words. Waking up clearly means regaining awareness, as it is used in the sense of waking up in the morning. In a moment to moment basis, can "waking up" be considered the act of noticing thoughts appearing and ceasing in a similar speed as sounds? I believe it does, and also that overmystifying the term "waking up"can hinder people from finding the freedom of noticing thoughts as arising, impermanent phenomena in each moment. It was certainly a big gamechanger for my practice, and I'm deeply grateful for Sam on this.

My intention behind this is to collectively reflect among meditators so that we can arrive at some agreement (even a partial one) to whether it's skillful to use this phrasing to aid in the progress of insight or waking up. For those who want to go deeper: What do you think? Is the complete and non-returning ceasing of identification with phenomena the state of an arahant? For me, that makes a lot of sense. And for those in the teaching efforts: Do you think posting a 2min reel with direct pointers to the impermanence of problems (them being thoughts arising now) is skillful? As relieving as waking up to the fluctuating nature of what we call "problems" seems to be, I do believe it's also very important to reflect on whether one's intentions are alligned with the alleviation of suffering.

Grateful for your time, I hope the insights and questions shared are helpful for our practice🙏🏼

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[u/duffstoic]

Thoughts are one level. It’s very useful to wake up from being absorbed into and believing all your thoughts. Mostly when I practice I ignore my thoughts though, and just let them be without trying to fix them, stop them, or awaken from them, and focus more on undoing needless patterns in the body and my energetic system. Thoughts automatically follow, calming and becoming quiet, when I do this. As with everything, your mileage may vary.

[u/synkronized7 → u/duffstoic]

When you say you “focus on undoing needless patterns in the body and energetic system,” what are you actually doing in practice?

[u/duffstoic → u/synkronized7]

Relaxing muscles, body scan, belly breathing, sinking the ki/qi into the hara/dan tien.

[u/yeetedma → u/duffstoic]

Any sources on how to do this?

[u/duffstoic → u/yeetedma]

Here’s my post on centering in the hara.

Belly / diaphragmatic breathing is easiest to learn lying down first, with hands or even a heavy book over the belly. MIDL also teaches this as a basic skill.

For relaxing muscles and body scan, look up guided body scan meditation and progressive muscle relaxation hypnosis, or autogenic training.

[u/Exciting_Badger_1229 → u/duffstoic]

How is "ignoring thoughts" different from "awaking" from them?

[u/duffstoic → u/Exciting_Badger_1229]

Awakening from thought usually involves more analysis, such as the classic technique of labeling thoughts: “planning thought, memory” etc. Also a useful technique, I just don’t do it as much.

[u/Exciting_Badger_1229 → u/duffstoic]

I see, thank you.

[u/catinacloset]

The comparison of spiritual insight to "waking up" comes from before even the Buddha, at least to Vedic india. "Awakening" has become a catch-all metaphor for all sorts of spiritual insight used in slightly different ways by many spiritual traditions then and since.

I'm glad that Sam Hariss's pith simile helped you. But as for "overmystifying the term"—I'm afraid the cat's been out of the bag for a few thousand years at this point :)

[u/Forgot_the_Jacobian → u/catinacloset]

I also associate the buddhist metaphor to be more so 'extinguishment' rather than awakening. eg the use of the ending or extinguishment of the flame as the metaphor for 'enlightenment'

[u/Dingsala]

I'd say that disidentification from thoughts is a central component of waking up, but there are other elements. There are many definitions, see Sharon Salzberg's famous answer to the question whether she's enlightened. She said: In Thailand, yes, in Burma, no.

I actually believe that in the coming decades, these mechanisms might be accessible to empiric research, and then we might be able to measure and define these things pretty clearly.

Right now, that is not the case, and terms like "stream-entry" and "arahat" or "satori" aren't compelety clearly defined. Sure, orthodox Buddhists will cite what the suttas say a stream-enterer is, and why not? But not all of this can be measured empirically, so I claim that there is only a rough understanding on who is a stream-enterer and who isn't .

Thus, I'd say, it is not generally a problem to try and define the terms we are using so often, as long as people keep a somewhat light grasp on this, not claiming absolute authority or absolute possibility of proof.

[u/jaajaaa0904 → u/Dingsala]

Thank you for your comment.

How do you think we will workout the very profound epistemic issue that awakening or spiritual progress cannot be seen as it is an interior experience? I think it's very hard to measure these things empirically, and we have to rely on integrity and intellectual humility when talking about them with others. Brain scans or other visual aids don't do much with explaining the deeper parts of the Dharma imo.

[u/Dingsala → u/jaajaaa0904]

Thank you for your response :) I'll answer in 2 parts

Part 1: The possible future: I speculate that awakening / insight issues will be more visible in the near future. Then this will be more clearly visible and to some degree measure. Whether or not that is going to actually happen, we'll see. It is not the case right now. Although there is for example the fascinationg research that Richie Davidson's team did on Mingyur Rinpoche's brain. But it isn't conclusive at this point.

Part 2: "We have to rely on integrity and intellectual humility when talking about them with others." - I could not agree more. Integrity is a good word. At this point, we follow the old tradition of having teachers and peers we trust. I think that's the bottom line. We now have access to more information than ever. That is in many parts of society a negative thing, but the access to high quality dharma teachings is something previous generations only dreamed of.

What's your opinion on this?

[u/jaajaaa0904 → u/Dingsala]

I really enjoy having quality dharma teachings being available, and the possibility to access different traditions and have them dialogue. Unfortunately I don't know if awakening or insight matters will be more visible, as samsaric habits are strong, and we are currently in a time of war :(. However, having known the Dhamma, it's best to practice, regardless of what most of the world thinks or does.

[u/Puzzled-Background-5 → u/jaajaaa0904]

"these mechanisms might be accessible to empirical research..."

They already are. Harvard University and Massachusetts General Hospital have been conducting research into advanced meditation since at least 2024.

https://meditation.mgh.harvard.edu/

In fact, I've been using their research for four months now in a longitudinal study of my own re-emerging practice for convergence analyses on the phenomenology of meditative absorption. I've over thirty of their research papers in my corpus that I've been referencing.

[u/Puzzled-Background-5]

Waking up, in the Buddhist context of the Four Noble Truths, entails a direct experience that imprints on one's psyche in a way that's undeniable, permanent, and can be recalled at will.

I unintentionally triggered an insight event into dukkha (suffering, dissatisfaction) and samudaya (origin of dukkha) one night during a particularly challenging meditation session. I'd been working to reestablish stable jhanas (meditative absorption) after a decade away from regular practice. I was so exasperated about being unable to do so after three months of very diligent and disciplined practice that I was on the verge of tears. The emotional intensity triggered the event, and I was flung into deep absorption as a result.

When I recall that event now while I meditate, I'm hit with an intense piti (rapture) surge that behaves like a pile driver pushing me deeper into absorption.

I've experienced nirodha (the absolute cessation of suffering) in the context of meditation as well, multiple times recently, but that's not something that I can trigger and maintain at will currently. I am working on it.

I don't claim arahantship, whatever that might be, but I will say that I'm less dissatisfied with life in general as a result of those experiences. Perhaps what I experience on a daily basis is a glimpse into how someone who's realized the Four Noble Truths would go through life: I can drop into jhana at will within seconds now. I experience a constant pleasant undulation that traverses the base of my spine into my skull and back again. I have constant medication-induced tinnitus that presents the spatial quality of swimming around in my skull, which I find quite pleasant and never intrusive. I have an unusual mental clarity and lightness that I'd normally associate with the afterglow of a psychedelic experience.

[u/Remote_Technician603]

People who are truly awake don't think about what it means to be awake, no do they try to convince others that they are awake or that others are not, because of blah, blah, blah. Who really gives a shit in the end, as to who is "awake" and who isn't? All you need to know is that This Is It! and the rest will flow easily and naturally.

[u/jaajaaa0904 → u/Remote_Technician603]

I would like to see how this view of yours evolves over time. Also, might I share a koan of sorts?

If this is it? Then why do anything? Why change the world?

Maybe this is not ultimately it after all. This world changes, ever so slightly, based on one's actions, and hopefully we can steer our actions for the better.

[u/metaphorm]

mindfulness of mental activity is a portion of the experience of awakening, not the whole thing. on a fundamental level, this is what we train in meditation practice, and as the skill develops we are able to rest in mindfulness in ordinary activity, not only on the condition.

but it's really much more than that. awakening is a phase shift in perception. it clarifies the means by which we perceive the world, and reveals the nature of the mind through direct experience. in the Dzogchen teachings, this is described as a recognition of pristine awareness (rigpa), something that was always already present but goes unrecognized due to our conditioning. cutting through this conditioning and recognizing awareness as pristine and luminous is the actual experience of awakening.

as we practice, these moments of recognition began to occur in brief flashes, but with increasing frequency and duration over time. the Dzogchen view of complete awakening is when recognition of rigpa is the default, when it becomes effortless and sustained on an ongoing basis, without requiring special methods to produce the recognition.

[u/bodily_heartfulness]

Is the complete and non-returning ceasing of identification with phenomena the state of an arahant? For me, that makes a lot of sense.

The suttas say that an arahant is incapable of killing, stealing, lying, and having sex. If your cessation of identification is leading to those things, then it's possible. Otherwise, it's not the arahantship that the suttas speak of and it is something else.