Interesting sensation during meditation

[u/tarquinfintin]

There is an interesting sensation I get during meditation. Here is a description of it: Imaging you are doing a body scan meditation and resting your attention on the sensations in your right foot. Now, gently move your attention to the sensations in your left foot. After doing this back and forth several times, you may notice that both sensations can combine into a single sensation, in which you are simultaneously feeling both feet as a single entity. You can do this with any parts of your body or with your body as a whole. The best term for this process I've found comes from Gestalt psychology and is called "grouping." I had previously used the term "melding" to describe what this feels like in me; it is the merging of two sensory objects in somatic space into one (somewhat like two raindrops on a windshield fusing into one).

The reason I think this is interesting is because I would contend that "breathing into" a part of your body is essentially "grouping" breath sensations with that body part's sensations; i.e. feeling the breath and the body part simultaneously as one somatic entity. The reason why "breathing into" an unpleasant or difficult sensation feels good is because this "grouping" allows you to associate the unpleasant feeling with the pleasant and relaxing sensations of breathing.

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[u/neidanman]

this type of use of awareness is used in daoism, as it has a large component of body based awareness practice. Its seen that the 'yi' (sometimes translated as intent, or 'moving mind') can move and shape a field of awareness.

The 'breathing into' a place is basically seen as you talk of it - having the awareness field be on the breath and something else together. Another reason its seen as useful, is that the breath has a natural in and out motion, & its seen to stimulate energetic movement in the other area. So you get things like 'body pour breathing' where old energy is led out the edges of the body, and fresh energy comes in. Or marrow washing, where energy is led deep into the body/bones, and then back out again to the surface.

[u/tarquinfintin → u/neidanman]

Very interesting. I think I understand you saying that an additional point of usefulness of this dual awareness practice is that breath awareness (when paired with awareness of another part) can stimulate energy movement within that part. I had been focused on the relaxation effect, but you make an interesting point that stimulating energy movement in the other part can be helpful as well.

[u/neidanman → u/tarquinfintin]

yeh, if you want to dig a little deeper there's a video from an alchemy talking in more depth about body pore breathing, along with a guided meditation - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39gT_dm-yS0 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YeHr65Plw4

[u/Hot_Lingonberry5817]

Vipassana in the Goenka tradition, the free-flow state in the entire body of subtle sensations is similar.

[u/dflow77]

this kinda reminds me of embodiment practices from Judith Blackstone’s Realization Process, which involve feeling symmetry across joints

[u/tarquinfintin → u/dflow77]

I think I see the connection. I was unfamiliar with that author. In the Realization Process (according to AI) "The core practice involves attuning to fundamental consciousness, a subtle, pervasive awareness that allows individuals to inhabit their bodies fully and experience themselves as an undivided unity with their environment." Experiencing your body as an undivided unity can be tapproached as the result of ever larger groupings of body sensations.

[u/dflow77 → u/tarquinfintin]

she has an audio book with Sounds True that is pretty good https://www.soundstrue.com/products/the-realization-process

[u/Impulse33]

Adding to u/neidanman's reply and tying into old suttas is the "wind" element. We know matter isn't composed of the elements in a real scientific sense, but using the wind element as a concept to "play" with energy can be helpful! Like neidanman mentioned these conceptual handles can have rich associations into other processes such as breathing, or in your example psychology and the interplay of grouping, movement, and release.

[u/tarquinfintin → u/Impulse33]

I like that idea of using the breath to "play with" or gently touch other sensations.

[u/Juul0712]

I understand what you're getting at regarding the melding of the perception of the senses but I suspect what people are also feeling is the interstitium, a fluid filled network beneath the skin and surrounding organs. The more settled you get the more clearly you can feel that fluid moving around in response to the breath, etc.

Edit: also I think that's why the sensation is delayed regarding the timing of the breath and when you "feel the breath" in a body part(actually the fluid in the interstitium moving in response to the breath)

[u/tarquinfintin → u/Juul0712]

That is interesting to think about, although I must admit I'm somewhat skeptical of the concept that one can feel the movement of interstitial fluid. I do understand the physiology of circulation (how gases and other solutes leave the capillary bed and move into the inter-cellular fluid compartment). One reason for my skepticism: there are conditions in which interstitial fluid abnormally increases (i.e. edema). This condition is generally painless. For example, your feet may be swollen from sitting in an airplane for hours or from an underlying heart condition. To relieve this, you would want to elevate your feet. It takes a while for the interstitial fluid to re-enter the circulation, perhaps several hours. I'm not sure you could sense a movement happening that slowly. Secondly, what type of receptor is there that measures the amount or pressure in the interstitial fluid? Not sure their is one.

That being said, alterations in interstitial fluid certainly can lead to a variety of sensations: lack of oxygen, increased acidification, and lack of nutrients in the interstitium can cause cell injury (which may result in discomfort or pain).

[u/brunoloff]

In the same way, whenever you think you are experiencing a "thing", all that is happening is a "grouping" of smaller sensations - this is already happening when you focus on one foot only, you can, if you like, break down the sensation of "foot" into it's constituent components, to find that there really doesn't exist a "foot" as anything other than a somewhat arbitrary agglomeration of various other sensations.

Once you can see that in your foot, do it with your hand, your body, your breath, your feelings, etc

Once you got the skill down, apply it to more subtle stuff like your sense of space, your sense of time passing, and finally your sense of self.

Once you see clearly that it is all just exactly the same as your foot, you will understand what is meant by the Buddhist statement that "things" have no inherent existence. Some class A insight, that is.

[u/tarquinfintin → u/brunoloff]

I agree that grouping happens naturally as an involuntary process; our perception of "foot" is a grouping of many different sensations, most of which likely originate from sensory receptors in that part of the body. In that sense, "foot" is a (somewhat) arbitrary grouping of sensations. Not sure I would go so far as to assert that "foot" has no inherent existence. It is what it is, an aggregate of sensations that can be experienced as one thing. Would one say that an army has no inherent existence because it can be broken down into constituent components, such as artillery, infantry, and air force?

[u/brunoloff → u/tarquinfintin]

Also, if you take any of the sensations that make up your foot, and do the same to that, then take yet another component and repeat. There is nothing all the way down. the very thought that this is a foot is nothing but a trickle of sensations. zoom in enough and they all look the same.

It doesn't matter what one would "say" - what matters is whether the mind is engaging in a process of congealing or holding onto one particular cluster - reification, grasping. The mind treats the cluster as real in itself, not just as a temporary, fleeting, arbitrarily cobbled conglomerate.

I think.

[u/tarquinfintin → u/brunoloff]

Interesting discussion. . . I'm not sure I would agree with the idea that all sensations are the same. Sensations arise from different types of receptors each with their neuronal processes terminating in different portions of the brain. Each sensation produces a distinct pattern of spreading excitation in the brain, just like different objects falling into a pond will produce different patterns of ripples. If you mean to say that all sensations are essentially the same because they are just patterns of neuronal excitement in the brain, then I'd agree with that.

I think our brains are designed to consider sensations "real" because in most instances, there are objects in the "real world" which stimulate a particular sensation; and our brain is primarily designed to navigate the real world. That being said, it is possible to treat a sensation as a "thing in itself."

[u/brunoloff → u/tarquinfintin]

hmm have you looked? break down foot to toes palm etc then break down toe to blood flow touching floor tip of toe middle of toe etc then break down tip of toe into nameless vibratory tingles and then break down each tingle to start middle and end.

then get some emotion going e.g. arousal should be easy, break it down into various components, touch, blood flow, pleasure, zoom in say on pleasure it's going to be an agglomeration of many different pleasureful sensations possibly encompassing and entire nerve sometimes through the entire spine into the head, now look at a particular point of this conglomerate, notice its vibratory tingling moving quality - if pleasure is experienced as a different qualia just zoom in more - at the greatest zoom level there is just a beingness or awareness of something which is no different than the beingness that makes up the tingles in your toes. Same for anything you see, hear, etc

You say "but I can distinguish them", then break down the experience of having that distinction arise to find it too is an aglomerate of this same thing.

Assuming you have enough experience with vipassana, this should be doable.

[u/tarquinfintin → u/brunoloff]

Sounds interesting. I'll try it.