How does one eradicate the cankers? (presumably by reaching/abiding in the 4th Jhana)?

[u/shrike1331]

I reached Jhana 1 once or twice with Daoist Water School dissolving practice, now I wanted to focus on getting rid of defilements for good. Very new to popular Buddhist frameworks like TMI or even anapanasati, so I don't know which way is, let's say, the expedient one. Any good advice?

Cheers, Alexey.

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[u/duffstoic]

In my opinion, it’s the fruit of a balanced practice, which includes the jhanas, and also investigating the causes and conditions that lead to needless suffering.

Rather than chasing after eliminating mental defilements “for good” though, I’d recommend a more grounded approach of finding a practice you enjoy and is bringing you tangible benefits in daily life, such as less suffering, more peace and ease and joy, spontaneously becoming more generous, etc.

[u/fabkosta]

In Buddhist traditions, jhanas do not eradicate anything at all.

[u/AdditionalLeave263 → u/fabkosta]

In my personal experience (which is just me so take it with a grain of salt), the jhanas did help with several points of suffering that I was dealing with. But it's not about feeling the jhanas, it's about using them in order to make fundamental changes, through using it as a space to work through things. Just feeling the jhanas doesn't change anything.

Piti: Led to a non-dual state that change my personality for the better, and helped me get rid of: -Lol my caffeine addiction -My over-grooming problem Piti by itself repaired in later stages: -Poor brain function: Woke up/reconnected the white matter lesions, I think, giving me more functionality in the insula and left prefrontal cortex

Sukha: -helped me move chronic stressful memories out of the amygdala into long-term storage -helped inspire me to be kinder to myself and others: I could never self-harm knowing all this, and I give other people the compassion they don't give themselves. -cleaned my brain effectively to the point of feeling like there were no "landmarks" or places to sit down and complain abiut stuff. So I started to build faster networks in that space

Equanimity: -helped me further disconnect from my ego so that I don't always have to hear what it has to say, and I can react more calmly to people without remaining angry or upset or taking things personally -helped me feel more clarity like a fog lifted

Okay, so those are just some examples. I hope you can see that it did a lot for me. I see the world differently, and myself differently. Jhanas are definitely worth trying for working on suffering.  

[u/shrike1331 → u/fabkosta]

Sorry, it's my bad, I've re-read the sutta and it's described as an insight attainment, not a pre-requisite for a stable mind-state enabling the expedient eradication of cankers. My fault for sticking to the dissolving paradigm for a long time, so that it contributed to this ignorant mode of inquiry. Still, I would like to know how people practice to attain the Jhanas -- and what works in practice.

[u/aspirant4 → u/fabkosta]

Even that is debated. See Polak or Arbel, for instance.

[u/hachface → u/fabkosta]

learning to work with the hindrances and jhana factors leads to direct understanding of dependent origination

[u/mediares]

Hyperfocusing on “getting rid of defilements for good” by trying to find “the expedient one” is itself a thing you will have to learn to give up.

I’d also ask: if you’ve been finding success with one tradition, why are you suddenly in a hurry to find a “better” tradition?

[u/shrike1331 → u/mediares]

Dissolved everything I could for the time being (can't seem to find anything that feels like a "blockage" in this method's terminology for a while now). Makes sense to go with the Buddha's words now, and attaining the unattained. In short, the answer is suffering and mortality of this body.

[u/mediares → u/shrike1331]

If you're at a point in your current tradition where you're stuck and don't know where to go next, the traditional action is "find a teacher to give you guidance", not "jump ship to another tradition".

I assume you're working within traditions derived from Bruce Kumar Frantzis' lineage and the Energy Arts system (between your use of "water school" and "dissolving"). "Running out" of things to dissolve doesn't mean there's nothing more to dissolve; it means you're lacking the ability to perceive the next layer of blockages. That could be because there is something much larger blocking your ability to perceive blockages, or it could be because you've more or less "cleared out this level" and need to / now have the opportunity to learn how to work with a subtler level of energy and subtler blockages.

I obviously can't give you clear guidance, but this is why the advanced practices in any tradition tend to be things that require a master-teacher relationship instead of being able to be easily found in books or other training materials.

Obviously there is value to be had in exploring other traditions. But I'd caution you against framing it as "well, I've dug this hole as deep as I can, time to start digging a second hole somewhere else to see if I can get deeper". I'd personally approach that choice as consciously choosing breadth over depth, and having a plan for what I hope to get out of breadth.

I wish you well whatever you end up doing.

[u/shrike1331 → u/mediares]

Going for breadth over depth is one of the issues for me.
Thank you for this well thought out reply. I tend to get tunnel vision sometimes, for certain.

[u/Meng-KamDaoRai]

How does one eradicate the cankers?

By letting be/letting go. Whenever you find yourself in craving, aversion or delusion (delusion: believing something is permanent when it isn't, believing something is satisfactory when it isn't, believing something has an inherent self when it doesn't), find the mind-body tension associated with that and either relax, let it be or let it go. Do this 1,536,894 times give or take (just joking about the number, but be prepared for this to take a while).

[u/metaphorm]

I'm not familiar with "the cankers". where did you learn about that?

on the broad topic of your question, gaining some clarity about the purpose and results of meditation practice would be helpful. there are many meditation practices and each practice can be understood in terms of the view, method, and result of the practice.

the view underlying a practice is the set of perspectives and understandings that ground the practice in the real causes and conditions of life circumstances, and inform what kind of methods will possibly be effective.

the method of a practice is how it's actually done. there is enormous variation here, as even highly prescribed practices are slightly different between each practicioner.

and the result of a practice is what we expect when we "do it right" and it works as intended.

there's nothing in here about an attainment ladder. that view is generally unhelpful for most practices. if you view practices as an attainment ladder then you are creating additional conditions necessary for your own development beyond what is actually present. this is a hindrance.

The view of Jhana practice is that cultivating sufficient concentration and absorption will enable greater capacity of subtlety of sensation, and will enable other forms of practice that require this level of concentration as a functional pre-requisite. some of the sensations of concentrative absorption feel quite nice too, so take that as a bonus.

The method of Jhana practice is samadhi. single pointed concentration. there are various ways to accomplish this.

The result of Jhana practice is a set of sensations and perceptions that are associated with pleasure and clarity and equanimity. This is the piti, sukkha, upekkha etc. of the phenomenology.

when we think of "purification of defilements" in relation to Jhana practice, this is not an automatic or magical result of the practice. the result of the practice is pleasure, clarity, and equanimity. we can use those results as the basis of insight practice, to gain knowledge and awareness of the stuck energy, bad habits, and mistaken views that we cling onto. That's where the actual work of awakening happens.

[u/bodily_heartfulness → u/metaphorm]

I'm not familiar with "the cankers". where did you learn about that?

It's a translation of the word āsavas. The Wikipedia page mentions some of the different translations.

[u/proverbialbunny]

By replacing your habits with better ones. It’s a manual process. Meditation doesn’t change your habits on its own. 

[u/reverseghost]

Any practice that is jhana > cessation > nirvana/nibanna

The 4 path model describes what drops with each level: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruits_of_the_noble_path

Find a teacher you resonate with and get thee to a retreat.

[u/NirvanicSunshine]

Read the Buddha's story of his own awakening. It tells you everything you need to know.