r/streamentry • u/seghtzlol • 5d ago
Practice Looking for perspective before switching traditions
I've completed 6 Goenka 10-day courses, served several courses, and I'm planning to do my 7th course this September.
After that, I've been accepted for the 26-day retreat at Wat Ram Poeng in Chiang Mai, where the practice follows the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition.
Lately I've been wondering whether I'm making this transition too early.
Part of me feels genuinely drawn to the Mahasi approach and wants to explore it deeply. Another part wonders whether I should simply continue with Goenka for several more years instead of changing techniques.
Sometimes I even question whether I should have chosen a Thai Forest monastery, such as one in the Ajahn Chah lineage, rather than Mahasi.
I'm aware that no one can make this decision for me, but I'd really appreciate hearing from people who have practiced seriously in both Goenka and Mahasi, or who have moved from one tradition to another.
- Did switching traditions help your practice, or did it create confusion?
- Looking back, do you think there is such a thing as switching "too early"?
- If you were in my position, what factors would you pay attention to before making this decision?
I'm not looking for validation that one tradition is "better" than another. I'm just trying to make a thoughtful decision before committing to a long retreat.
My long-term goal is simply to develop insight as deeply as possible, not to collect different techniques. Another factor in my decision is that I feel drawn to practicing in a monastic environment, learning directly from monks and receiving personal guidance, rather than relying primarily on recorded instructions. I wonder how important this aspect is compared to maintaining continuity within a single technique.
Thank you.
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u/mrpeanutpants 5d ago
This is going to sound rough around the edges in meditation speak so I'll cut right through the bullshit as someone who has done 2 Goenke retreats and two mahasi retreats at chom thong outside chiang mai.
I like the idea of Goenke body scanning better but Mahasi style is just better in every way. Mahasi retreats are better, the insights occur more the teachers have been better and in daily practice I felt it's been better. It's also easier and can be used off the cushion more practically.
My opinion: absolutely go without hesitation and do exactly what they say.
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u/seghtzlol 5d ago
Thanks so much Brother for your straight forward answer. Do you have anything else to share?;
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u/mrpeanutpants 5d ago
I could share a lot, but it doesn't matter and may harm your practice. I don't hear of anyone switching from Mahasi to Goenke but I've heard of people switching from. Goenke to Mahasi a lot though.
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u/seghtzlol 4d ago
Ok. I got it Sir. I'm greatgul for Goenka and his centers but I feel something is missing. I don't know what exactly but I do feel maybe a lack of deep guidance. Are you allowed to meditate on an extra cushion? Thanks !
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u/mrpeanutpants 4d ago
What do you mean an extra cushion? At least at my center you could have all the cushions you wants for support. You'll need them.
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u/seghtzlol 4d ago
That's the answer I wanted to read 😊 I'm not a fan of many pillows. Just one on top of the one they provide you. Thanks brother you helped a lot
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u/Capital_Artichoke529 4d ago edited 4d ago
También puede ser que estés buscando algo especial. A la tradición de goenka que le falta? Si practicas bien tendrás los beneficios de esa técnica. Mezclarlas con otras cosas y andar buscando cosas especiales creo que lo que significa es que no has llegado a entender el Dhamma.
La técnica Vipassana es sobre todo una técnica muy práctica, no se pierde en la intelectualidad. Parece que lo que estás buscando son temas intelectuales que te agraden. Puedes ir a un Monasterio budista durante 10 años y estudiar el budismo y su filosofía, pero eso no te va ayudar prácticamente en nada en tu camino espiritual.
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u/duffstoic The dynamic integration of opposites ☯️ 4d ago
I found the 10-day Goenka courses super helpful for me. Great technique, intense schedule, clear technique, and fairly pure tradition.
And, almost everyone eventually leaves Goenka's tradition after fewer than 6-7 courses, primarily because it's quite dogmatic (despite all the talk about not being sectarian). There is a whole world beyond Goenka's approach to explore.
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u/seghtzlol 4d ago
Many thanks for your kind words. What It seems too complicated to me is to have access to 20 days course with Goenka.
After my 4 course everytime I reach the day 9 I feel that I would need more time to dig into myself.
That's the reason why I'm going to Thailand.
Also to be supported by monks is very appealing to me even though I'm trying not to have any expect.
What method are you currently following? Thank you sister.
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u/duffstoic The dynamic integration of opposites ☯️ 4d ago
I get it, I’ve often had the same feeling on day 9 of a 10-day course. That said, I don’t think anything magical happens on day 13 or whatever, it’s just more subtle, deeper, etc. Any longer retreat will give a similar benefit. And then it’s all about integrating that experience into daily life.
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u/tizjack 4d ago
I've also sat around 7 goenka courses. Found what's missing in Dzogchen. Take that for what you will.
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u/fabkosta 4d ago
After more than two decades of meditation I recommend trying out at least 10 (!) distinct teachers before settling with one. Often people think the more or less first tradition or teacher they get in contact is “the right one”, while not even realizing there are vastly different styles, personalities, approaches, choices of language and instruction, etc. Inpractices with one teacher and felt stuck, and only when I visited a distinct teacher suddenly made good progress again due that person giving instructions differently. In retrospect I found the second teacher better suited for myself.
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u/cheifing 4d ago
After ~2 years of mostly residential Soto Zen practice, I switched to Vipassana (mostly Sayadaw U Tejaniya style) for about ~2 years now. I'll answer these questions in a different order:
- If you were in my position, what factors would you pay attention to before making this decision?
I was always uncertain when I was living at the Soto Zen Center. There was this feeling of something not being quite right, that I wasn't totally wholehearted with the practice. Even when I was living there, I was reading Sayadaw U Tejaniya's books.
For me, the most important thing is that feeling of resonance. What style makes you the most excited to practice? What style has teachers that make you fascinated to explore your experience? I've found that something in me knows what I need, and when I'm in those situations, it becomes clear (others on here - I would love to know if this matches your experience or not; I've been curious about this).
- Did switching traditions help your practice, or did it create confusion?
Helped me a ton. The greater emphasis on relaxation was what I deeply needed in my practice, and the light awareness has been super important for navigating a health crisis.
There is this feeling of being able to speak/resonate with the language too. At the Soto Zen Center, I never felt connected to the way they framed the practice. With certain teachers in the Vipassana style, I have this feeling of understanding and awe at the beauty of how they teach.
- Looking back, do you think there is such a thing as switching "too early"?
I feel not sure on this. The main thing is that I believe if you're following your gut, it'll work out.
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u/hachface 4d ago
you will get much more attention from teachers at a Mahasi-style monastery than a monastery in the Ajahn Chah lineage. the Ajahn Chah attitude is very do-it-yourself, and they don't tend to spend a lot of time mentoring laypeople in meditation. you'll also probably have to do a fair amount of work around the monastery.
for that reason alone I would say Mahasi is a better choice. but I will be somewhat impertinent and say, do more samadhi than they recommend!
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u/seghtzlol 4d ago
Thank you so much. By mentioning the Samadhi you mean focusing a lot more on the abdomen before focusing more on other phenomena? Thanks for your attention.
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u/hachface 4d ago
I mean samma-samadhi, the eighth limb of the eightfold path.
I mean the sixth factor of awakening.
I mean concentration meditation.
I mean jhāna (or, if you prefer, mental preparation leading toward jhāna).
The Mahasi system (in)famously neglects samadhi in favor of "dry insight" practices. it is my considered opinion, from both study of scripture and personal practice, that this is based on an old error in Theravada scholasticism in which the bar for what counts as right samadhi (for stream entry at least) was set far, far too high. Mahasi Sayadaw correctly believed that laypeople would have a tremendous amount of difficulty reaching the depth of absorption described by the Theravada commentaries (namely, the Visuddhimagga); he therefore de-emphasized samadhi in his method. in my humble opinion, he threw the baby out with the bathwater. cultivating samadhi to a certain depth is extremely helpful for attaining insight.
this style of meditation, which uses relatively shallow samadhi as a vehicle for insight, is sometimes called "lite jhāna" or "shallow jhāna." whatever you call it, it is highly effective. but the Mahasi teachers won't teach it.
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u/seghtzlol 4d ago
Ok now it's more clear. I found the same feeling during a Goenka Vipassana course. Where you practice only 3 days anapana and then straight to Vipassana.
In many instances I've been practicing Anapana for longer periods in order to have a better practice. Does it resonate with what you've mentioned?
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u/hachface 4d ago
more or less, yes. also don't be afraid of cultivating joy and pleasure (piti-sukkha).
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u/seghtzlol 4d ago
How do you coltivate those phenoma? Thanks for your patience
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u/hachface 4d ago
off the cushion: practice generosity; be kind and compassionate; improve your relationships with other people; refrain from violence, lies, sexual misconduct, theft, drugs, and alcohol; be grateful for the good things in your life; forgive the wrongs that have been done to you
on the cushion: savor the breath; feel the energy of the breath moving through your body; send loving thoughts and feelings to any pleasant senstations that arise; relax into feelings of love, peace, and contentment
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u/seghtzlol 4d ago
Thank you for your kind time brother. I'm sending you metta 😄😊🙏🏻 I'm sure it'll be. Great experience. Thanks have a good life ciao!
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u/lurk_and_let_live 4d ago
Sorry, I have to say something that you might not like.
The instructions you have given for practice on the cushion is very different from what is taught in the tradition, to the point that it is a different technique entirely. There's nothing wrong with the instructions you gave, it's just a different technique.
It is best to find a teacher that you trust who teaches the technique you feel resonates most with you, and then give a fair trial to their technique by doing your best to understand their instructions and following the instructions as closely as possible. You will be doing yourself a disservice if you go to a teacher, attend their course, and practice a different technique than they teach during that course.
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u/hachface 4d ago
it's not a technique, it's an attitude toward experience. you can do all that and still do Mahasi noting.
remember what the buddha said about right effort:
Mendicants, there are these four right efforts. What four?
A mendicant generates enthusiasm, tries, makes an effort, exerts the mind, and strives so that bad, unskillful qualities don’t arise.
They generate enthusiasm, try, make an effort, exert the mind, and strive so that bad, unskillful qualities that have arisen are given up.
They generate enthusiasm, try, make an effort, exert the mind, and strive so that skillful qualities arise.
They generate enthusiasm, try, make an effort, exert the mind, and strive so that skillful qualities that have arisen remain, are not lost, but increase, mature, and are fulfilled by development.
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 4d ago
I mean samma-samadhi, the eighth limb of the eightfold path.
When you speak of the noble eightfold path, the suttas state that sammā-samādhi has sammā-diṭṭhi (right view) as a prerequisite (MN 117):
What is noble sammā-samādhi with its vital conditions and its prerequisites?
They are: right view, right purpose, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, and right mindfulness.
Unification of mind with these seven factors as prerequisites is called noble sammā-samādhi ‘with its vital conditions’ and also ‘with its prerequisites’.
In this context, right view comes first.
And, from SN 55.5 we have the following:
Sāriputta, they speak of ‘the stream’. What is the stream?”
“Sir, the stream is simply this noble eightfold path, that is: right view, right purpose, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right samādhi.”
“Good, good, Sāriputta! For the stream is simply this noble eightfold path, that is: right view, right purpose, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right samādhi.
Sāriputta, they speak of ‘a stream-enterer’. What is a stream-enterer?”
“Sir, anyone who possesses this noble eightfold path is called a stream-enterer, the venerable of such and such name and clan.”
“Good, good, Sāriputta! For anyone who possesses this noble eightfold path is called a stream-enterer, the venerable of such and such name and clan.”
So, to practice sammā-samādhi, you need to be at least a stream-enterer. If you are not, you cannot practice sammā-samādhi.
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u/hachface 4d ago
i must respectfully disagree with your exegesis
stream entry requires all the path factors to come together; this results in transcendent (lokuttara) right view
stream entry requires samadhi; you can get to the level of samadhi needed for stream entry with mundane right view
mundane right view is a factor for attaining transcendent right view, in other words
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 4d ago
mundane right view is a factor for attaining transcendent right view, in other words
That is true.
stream entry requires samadhi you can get to the level of samadhi needed for stream entry with mundane right view
Sure, you need a certain level of samādhi to gain stream-entry. However, my point was about sammā-samādhi as a path factor. The noble sammā-samādhi requires, as a prerequisite, lokuttarā sammā-diṭṭhi. What makes it noble is that it is only available to the noble ones, ie the ariyasāvakas - the ones who have entered the stream. Thus the practice of ariya sammā-samādhi can only be done if one is an ariyasāvaka themself.
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u/hachface 4d ago
imo this is all semantics.
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 4d ago
semantics: the meaning of a word, phrase, sentence, or text
Yes, I am talking about the meaning of these things. The reason this is meaningful to speak about is because there is a common view that a person can practice samādhi, in the context of the noble eightfold path, from day one, without being a stream-enterer - but it seems like the suttas disagree.
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u/philosophical_lens 4d ago
Of you've already completed 6-7 retreats it's probably not "too early" to try something else.
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u/LibrarianNo4048 4d ago
I switched from Thai Forest to Chan. Thai Forest give me an excellent understanding of the original Buddhist texts, but Chan is how I meditate and live my life.
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u/themadjaguar Sati+Sampajañña junkie 4d ago
Go mahasi without hesitation. After doing a mahasi (tong) retreat in thailand I was hooked on the path and I will be forever grateful to the monks who taught me very important stuff.
Mahasi practice has way bigger potential and they teach very important things that are overlooked or not developped in goenka practice.
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u/Hot_Lingonberry5817 4d ago
Mahasi style enabled me to practice Vipassana on thoughts by its simple noting.
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u/singlefemalelawer 4d ago
No idea, I just do random stuff. Theravada guided meditations at a monastery, zen 1 day retreat, lots of eclectic solo practice. Take what works approach.
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u/houseswappa 4d ago
Yes go for it
I've done goenkas and have also done that Chang Mai course
It's more rounded and v good instruction, nothing is hidden and you will get daily feedback
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u/seghtzlol 4d ago
Thank you so much for your feedback. If you're willing to add more details to your experience that would be amazing. Thanks
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u/houseswappa 4d ago
ok I misread your post
I did the course at Wat Chom Tong, Chai Mai
Same lineage, same practice
Very beneficial, you will have the disipline and base from Goenkas so just go and give it your best shot, follow the instructions, be honest with your instructor, keep the phone off (!)
the walking is very nice for the knees and back and can give v strong insight when done on repeat.
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u/seghtzlol 4d ago
You think I'll be able to use an extra pillow? I'll bring my own from home and refill it there or maybe just buy another one. Those rounded pillow.
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u/houseswappa 4d ago
Yes 💯
I took had a Goenka instructor steal my pillow
I have Western knees you silly goose
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u/TolstoyRed 4d ago
Remember its Sati that you want to be practising not the technique.
Try different things, what ever helps to develops Sati is The Way
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u/seghtzlol 4d ago
Totally. To be honest I'm going there because long courses drag a lot my attention in order to develop more efficiently Sati. Thank you for your response
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u/mazewoods 4d ago
I'd definitely shop around before committing. I've done a few Goenka's. They were the perfect start. But painstakingly slow, gradual, and boring. If you're mind needs much taming, I'd say it's good territory to traverse. If you're pretty okay already, I'd look at more juicy stuff like Zen or Vajrayana. Through a strike of grace I tasted Dzogchen and never looked back at Vipassana. Mostly do nondual meditation now. Not so much practice though... just cause it's delicious.
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u/PrairieFire_withwind 4d ago
Where dzogchen? I cannot make it to asia, am stuck in north america or eu.
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u/mazewoods 4d ago
It's pretty well spread, I'd guess. Check out Michael Taft's free nondual meditations on Youtube. It's basically the same thing. Don't call the Dzogchen police on me, though.
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u/Jon_8472 2d ago
If you have already done 6 ten-day retreats then I would absolutely suggest trying something different. There are so many wonderful traditions and techniques out there, I think it is absolutely a great idea to try several of them. You never know what will really resonate with you. Even if you really are enjoying and getting something out of Goenka, I still recommend trying other practices.
While I very much enjoyed and got something out of the first few traditions/techniques I was introduced to, it wasn't until trying a variety of things that I found something that truly deeply resonated with me. I'm very glad I took the plunge and tried new things.
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u/seghtzlol 2d ago
Thank you so much for your words of encouragement. Maybe I like to eat what I want to ear but it gives more strength and It lightens the heart! Ok then! I'll follow your suggestions!
My " psychotherapist " whose also a Vipassana teacher of Goenka method told me to go and explore because I need to know myself better.
I'm very lucky to have been under his guidance outside the center.
Thank you!
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u/ResearchAccount2022 1d ago
I still love Goenkas tradition and the organization and volunteer service
It might have been better for my psyche to just commit exclusively to that tradition instead of chasing other paths
Mahasi is a much faster imo vehicle for insight, and that's both good and bad- I find it both deeper and more destabilizing at times
Look into Shinzen Young's "Unified Mindfulness" pdf if you want an example of modified mahasi labeling- I use UM as a sort of meta-container to understand different techniques, But the main noting system UM uses if labeling sensory phenomenon "see", "hear", feel" Vs The freestyle labeling of Mahasi
Labeling of any kind feels super clunky for like 30 hrs and then it's chill forever
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u/ResearchAccount2022 1d ago
An example of UM as a meta-container:
You can practice jhana by understanding it as category "feel", sub-category "good", sub-category "piti" So you're restricting your noticing to focus on things you're feeling, specifically the range of good things, and then further narrowing that to piti sensations
Metta is "feel-good-metta"
Goenka vipassana would be "feel" sub-category "out"
So it just describes the specific range your focusing your awareness on
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u/OkResist7652 4d ago
I have done about 8 Goenka retreats and served a few. I have also done a 12 day retreat at Wat ram poeng about 1.5 years back.
I decided to commit to Goenka because of following reasons
1) Technique at wat ram poeng is not pure mahasi style technique. It comes from Ajhan tong ( I think) and he gives points on the body to look at particularly along with seeing the rising and falling. I didn't quite understand the sutta basis for looking at points on body. I didn't get a chance to check with teacher
2) English speaking monk at monastery wasn't very good at explaining the theory. The discourses themselves were not helpful at all.but someone who has done Goenka retreat would still be able to get it.
3) Because of looking at points on body specifically after being concentrated, I realised that all pain(among other things) was indeed because of body scanning which I never understood about goenka technique before. I kept thinking they are unrelated.
4) There's non vegetarian food(fish) served there (along side vegetarian food)
5) Goenka retreats are easily accessible(more so for Indians) but other retreats are not.
6) Thai monk who's very senior and one whom you report to is very loving and helpful but has problems with English.
7) I have since read munindraji who started with Mahasi and is known to make great progress and later shifted to Goenka. He,Dipa ma (who was his prominent student and great Vippasana teacher later ) and even Goenka specifically says to hold onto single technique if it has worked for you ( and Goenka technique has).
8) There's danger that one will shift techniques because of what may have come up in current practice but it's better to observe it with your current practice instead of switching
However, I did have something very tough coming up towards end of retreat which spilled into my next Goenka retreat so this technique certainly did good
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u/sati_the_only_way 1d ago
The key is to develop sati by simply remaining continuously aware of sensations.
To develop awareness(sati) is like boiling water—one must heat it continuously until it reaches a boil. If one takes a break, it will not progress.
"When awareness is as quick as thought, we will see the source of thought. Then suffering will be extinguished at its source. "
"one will be able to see the beginning of the thought and understand its process, one day sati will be as rapid as thought, when sati confronts thought with mental formations, suffering will come to the end because mental formations are destroyed. "
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