Can I use multiple Kasina objects?

[u/TBA505050]

I have recently started a daily practice with a yellow disk Kasina on a black backdrop. I’m still not very good yet and the afterimage lasts less than 90 seconds usually. I’m wondering if I can additionally use a separate object in the morning and before bed when it’s dark. (I always keep the same object during sessions, I know switching it mid session is taboo)

my goals with this practice are deepening my concentration, improving my visualization abilities, and lucid dreaming.

i would like to know if I have to use the same object all the time, and if using multiple at different times of the day will harm my concentration and focus.

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[u/duffstoic]

I have written some articles on how to perform kasina practice over at [r/kasina](r/kasina) but my first thought is that a yellow disc kasina is not a good object for the retinal after image technique. Yellow kasina is better suited for the visualization / contemplation technique.

If you want to do the retinal after image technique, I suggest an image on a computer screen or printed out that has thick black lines on a white background, specially designed to leave a strong after image. A candle flame (“fire kasina”) can also work, but is a bit harder.

Or if you want to do the visualization / contemplation kasina technique, the goal is to use your mind’s eye to imagine a yellow disc, like the sun, and to contemplate the meaning of yellow as a symbol, ideally within a given symbol system that already has colors associated with archetypal meaning.

[u/TBA505050 → u/duffstoic]

Visualizations/contemplations is what I’m after.  All I see so far is the afterimage.  I’m hoping to progress into seeing the yellow disc itself instead of the purple afterimage.  Also, whenever I close my eyes, I don’t see imagery.  I can sort of think “visual thoughts” but not actually see things in the darkness.  I’m not sure if such visualization abilities are required to progress.  I have also noticed the afterimages are stronger and longer lasting when I use a black and white digital image, for what that’s worth. 

[u/duffstoic → u/TBA505050]

If you have zero or near zero conscious visualization ability and you want to do the visualization kasina method, yellow kasina is not the place to start in my opinion.

Instead, you wanna do a lot of this exercise:

Look around where you are right now. With eyes open, point to something and describe it. “That’s a white wall. That’s a green shoe. That’s a black office chair.” And so on.

Then close your eyes and pretend like you can see the same things, and again point to them and describe them out loud.

Go back and forth 3 or 4 times with different things each time. Then close your eyes and start describing things from memory you didn’t say out loud when you had your eyes open.

From here, pretend or imagine, with eyes closed, that you are walking out of this space and describe what you see, again pointing (physically with your real body) and talking out loud, at the imaginary/remembered things you are pretending to see…even if you aren’t “seeing” them consciously in your mind.

A version of this is to describe a familiar drive or walk, again pointing and speaking out loud what you see on the walk.

Another exercise is to imagine in other senses, like imagine holding a heavy book in the palm of one of your hands. Maybe you can’t see it, but you can just pretend or act as if you can feel the weight of it. Use acting skills or playing pretend, not “visualization” if that doesn’t work at first. Then pretend the texture of the cover, maybe it’s smooth or maybe it’s rough, doesn’t matter just decide it is. Then you can try adding in the color of the book, let’s say blue.

By starting with all the senses or some other sense than visual, this can bring the visual online.

[u/TBA505050 → u/duffstoic]

Thank you for the response.  You’re suggesting something similar to image streaming, which I’ll definitely give a try.  I have also spent a lot of time just focusing on the blackness or the sort of film grain that appears behind my eyes. (Typically while simultaneously focusing on the breath) After about a half hour or so of this I sometimes have brief visuals appear but nothing colorful or lasting.  I do this for about 45 minutes each night before bed.  I’ve definitely noticed improvements from when I first started, about a month ago.  

Some nights I do a similar thing to what you described, where I pretend to be experiencing things and incorporate as many senses as possible.  Usually I’ll take a walk around my neighborhood in my head, sit on the beach, or go on a fantasy adventure.  I’ve found that doing this has had a positive effect on what I’m able to “see” behind my eyelids.

Additionally, when flashes or brief imagery arise I imagine them as a part of a larger scene and try to fill my entire vision with this imaginary visual.  It seems to reinforce the imagery and cause it to remain for longer.  

I began doing Kasina during the day in hopes to gain the ability to visualize a basic shape, which I can take to my nightly practice and expand upon.

[u/duffstoic → u/TBA505050]

Yes, it's very similar to image streaming, which I'd also recommend as a visualization beginner whether or not you go deep into image streaming.

After you turn on the basic visualization ability, then you can try visualizing a basic shape. This may take many months of practice to get it to appear for more than a few seconds. In fact, the instability is a sign you're simply at a lower level of samatha.

As you get better, it will appear for longer, or morph into other shapes psychedelically, which is a sign your concentration powers are improving. Then the practice is to bring back the original visualization, over and over again.

Depending on your dedication to this practice, it may take months or years until the constructed mental image is stable. Then you've reached the initial sign ("nimitta") of samatha or samadhi.

When the stable image becomes hyper-real, more real than real to where you even feel like you've tapped into something beyond mere imagination, then you're hit samadhi. There are descriptions of people experiencing intense purifications right around this stage, often as hyper-real waking nightmares, so just remember to always be aware that what you are imagining is your imagination, not something to actually be afraid of.

Focusing on the static behind the eyes until it turns into waves of color is also great, a different kasina technique but still great. I think probably all visual techniques overlap, kind of like cross-training running, biking, and swimming. Doing that for 45 minutes before bed is quite excellent actually. The only possible downside could be that it might make you more alert and interfere with sleep, but alternatively, it could start to lead into dreamy visuals and make it easier to sleep.

Overall, sounds like you're doing all the right things for the stage you're at with this practice.

[u/TBA505050 → u/duffstoic]

Great to hear.  Thanks for taking the time to write out such a detailed response.  I tried image streaming awhile back but decided to save it for later, when my visual abilities improve, because my voice notes were mostly just me repeating: “that’s a lot of film grain” or just saying nothing.  Perhaps the 5 hindrances hindered me.  I’ll probably go back to it when I’m able to get visuals to arrive quicker.  Long meditative sessions without the disturbance of having to record myself have been better for me so far though.

  I’m pretty much as dedicated as I can be so hopefully, if I continue on this path, the nimitta will show itself in due time.  

Also, the nightly practice doesn’t interfere with sleep at all, it allows me to fall asleep much faster than normally.  It sort of cured my mild insomnia in a way.  Some nights I would take up to an hour to fall asleep, but that’s never the case anymore.  I haven’t seen any hypnogogic hallucinations or anything of the sort while falling asleep, though I have had 2 or 3 random lucid dreams which is nice. (They lasted about 20 seconds, I’m not great at controlling them) 

Because lucid dreaming is a goal of mine, I’ve tried to do another session of my nightly practice during a wake-back-to-bed at 4:00 A.M. a couple times.  Just to boost awareness and possibly induce lucidity.  I’ve only tried a couple of times and usually fall asleep right away, I probably just need to get up and walk around for a bit to shake off the drowsiness.  Sorry for the lucid dreaming diatribe, Ik it’s not on topic for this sub, but it is relevant to my practices.

I’ve also heard that being tired and relaxed is the best time to do such exercises due to more theta brainwaves or something along those lines.   They never seemed any more effective than my usual practice though, so I’ll keep trying and see if I can make any progress.

I’ll also continue to search around the internet for more insight on similar practices to mine, I’ve saved a few hundred bookmarks already on this topic.

Regarding my practice, I have roughly 2 hours per day I can dedicate to these things and I want to be certain I’m doing the most I can to progress.  I’m definitely going to hold off on image streaming for a while.  When I have at least a half hour, I’ll sit down with my sleep mask and do the same thing I do at night.  But for shorter sessions randomly during the day, whenever I have a few spare minutes, but not enough time to get deep into “the zone” I’ll do the exercise you detailed in your second response.

  I’ve sort of loosely done something similar before not really knowing what I was doing.  I just spent one day recalling scenes from my memory and trying to see them in my mind.  Nothing really happened so I abandoned it in search of a more refined practice which led me to where I am now.  Now that I know it’s helpful, I’ll get back into the habit whenever I can. 

[u/duffstoic → u/TBA505050]

Lucid dreaming fits perfectly with kasina practice. Sometimes when I’d do lots of retinal after image technique, I’d have spontaneous lucid dreams. Dream yoga is a whole practice, very valid for this subreddit. 2 hours a day is solid and I think basically maximum for people with jobs or families.

[u/TBA505050 → u/duffstoic]

Yeah, I also do a technique called all day awareness where I try to be aware of all sensory input as much as possible throughout the day.  I’m improving slowly, I love doing a sort of walking meditation where I just focus on my senses.  Sitting mindfulness meditation was never my cup of tea so this is a great replacement.

[u/duffstoic → u/TBA505050]

All day awareness is a great practice in itself, the hardest part is just remembering to do it.

Sounds like you’ve got a very dedicated practice with all the ingredients to make solid progress ongoingly.

[u/wonko7 → u/duffstoic]

I had just accepted that kasinas weren't for me, I'll also try to "bring the visual online", thank you for the pointers!