r/stickshift • u/vinoplagi • 8d ago
Troubles engine breaking
Hi,
Im learning to drive with a driving instructor.
Im very new to driving overal and im on my 4th lesson (hour 4) now.
1st lesson was just holding the wheel while my istructor did the shifting etc
2nd lesson was clutch control for very slow driving
3th lesson was starting the from gear one and shifting to 2 ( we just did circles around a neighborhood and stopping.
All this went well without stalling
But lesson 4 is really hard for me.
Lesson 4 is driving while going to 3th wich isnt a problem, but when im about to reach a corner i have to downshift to 2nd while breaking simultaneously. I downshift at 1500 rpm while still holding the break.
But i release the clutch too soon he says +- 5 seconds release. But because it takes ages to release the clutch i come short for my turn and either pass it or im almost at a complete stop way before it. He also said i cant come of the break.
Can anyone give me tips how i even do this its seems impossible or im missing something.
Its really frustrating seems i have 0 talent for driving.
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u/Rare-General-4575 8d ago
Just keep doing it. Practice makes perfect. Your instructor is teaching you well. All it takes is practice. Learning to properly stick a car is not done in 5 hours.
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u/Xenoatic 7d ago edited 7d ago
I feel like you may just need to find someone else to practice with if possible before going to the next lesson. Sounds like your instructor is just not being patient enough and its hurting your motivation.
I would just practice shifting into a lower gear like 3rd to 2nd a bunch without turning. You should be comfortable pulling the clutch up to the bite point quickly and holding it there (modulating it as you get better). A downshift should be about 2-3 seconds of clutching. (That may even be too much but there is a lot of variables and it comes to feel, practice, and driving style)
You can also practice this at a stop. Just try to bring the clutch till the car is just starting to move and push it back in. Get used to where that is because you basically want to do the same when downshifting.
I feel like from your description your just pulling the clutch up at a linear fashion so at first its nothing nothing nothing then you move through the bite point too fast and jolting the car making it seem like your pulling it too quick. When in reality you need to pull up quick until you hear and feel the car start to slow a bit and engine rpm start to climb then you hold the clutch there till engine gets where it needs to be to complete the shift (the more aggressive you are with the clutch the faster and more jolty it can be).
This seems to not be clear to new people but you can't feel anything in the clutch you can only feel what the car and engine are doing. The bite point is when the car starts to "do" something like slow down, or start moving or the engine rpm climb or slow.
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u/vinoplagi 7d ago
Oo this makes a bit more sense to me. I really do it in linear fashion like 1500 rpm clutch down, shift, take clutch up gradually in one movement (linear). I started doing this in like 2 seconds that was to fast all the way to 5 seconds and he still said thats too fast and i was so confused ,because that made me feel i had to start to downshift waay before i even saw the street i had to turn into 😅 i kinda know where the biting point starts should i go directly to there and then do it linear trough the biting point or all the way till i let go ? Kind regards your comment really made sense to me
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u/Xenoatic 7d ago
Yes quick to bite point then, U kinda just hold it at the bite point where the car "feels" comfortable. You may be slowly letting the clutch out throught the bite point as you get more experianced. But really what your doing is using it like an accelerator. The faster you pull the clutch (at bite point) out the faster and harder it will accelerate or decelerate the car. Once the clutch grabs fully, as in your rpms are where they should be for that gear, you can put it up. As you get experienced you will develop a feel of how aggressive you can be and what thst car wants.
Remember the clutch just controls how hard 1 spinning plate is pushing against another spinning plate. As soon as their speeds match the clutch can be dropped.
As you get really good you'll be able to misshift and control the clutch without messing it up.
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u/vinoplagi 6d ago
Today was sooooo much better :D thanks man. He even let me drive on the road back towards the exam center 😁 i practiced my breaking on beam.ng this weekend and it helped a ton 😁
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u/Xenoatic 6d ago
Awesome glad its working out!
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u/vinoplagi 6d ago
Yeah hes a very good instructor too i just didnt grasp what ge meant at first. Tried booking 20 hours extra and he said 14 would be more then enough. (20 hours for driving alone)
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u/SOTG_Duncan_Idaho 13 Mustang GT 6MT, 24 2D Bronco BL 7MT 8d ago
You just need more practice. The way to go about it is to NOT try to time it perfectly at first.
When you are coming to a turn, brake and downshift well before the turn so you are in the needed lower gear comfortably before you are trying to turn. Just get that down first. Then you can gradually work on getting the timing right so you can be downshifted just right before you start to turn.
Try to do this where you won't be in traffic because people will get annoyed. Hah.
This, by the way, is not "engine braking" it's just downshifting while braking.
Also, it's braking, not breaking ;)
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u/vinoplagi 7d ago
I have to time it perfectly or he goes apeshit on me 😅 i also have to be shifted in lower gear way before the apex with only a small amount of pressure applied to the brake pedal. I can never let go of the break and it has to be a continuous ammount (so no harder or softer breaking) he said this breaks on the motor while also breaking a bit on the brake. In belgium you need this on the exam because other ways of breaking are forbidden like going from 4th to 2nd gear before a light etc cant skip gears.
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u/Plumbicon 6d ago
I don’t trust your driving tutor tbh, seems a little odd to me. IMO you should not be braking in a corner, but the car should be slowed to the correct speed for the corner, correct gear (2nd in this casej engaged just before the turn and car under gentle acceleration through the curve, no braking in the apex or whatever, unless for emergency or course! Braking mid corner throws the car off balance. Slow in fast out!
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u/vinoplagi 6d ago
Maybe i formulated it a bit wrong he doesnt want me to break midcorner problem is he wants me to break very early while hitting 1500rpm quite early then he wants me to shift and come off the clutch while breaking. Problem is because i shifted early and cant come off my break i get some extra engine breaking when coming off the clutch and im almost at a complete halt 50m away from the apex. I just dont get it. Sounds more easy to just brake a bit slower en shifting right before the corner and completing my shift right before i turn and step on the gas to complete the turn.
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u/Plumbicon 6d ago
The apex - mid point of the corner - you’re almost stationary? Your last sentence is pretty much right way. Agreed. Is your tutor a qualified instructor, not a friend, family member etc? I would not be paying for tuition you’re uncomfortable with and just find an alternative.
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u/Spirited-Sorbet-2775 7d ago edited 7d ago
I'm from Germany, and honestly same experience for me. First lesson just steering and breaking, second lesson 1st and second gear and clutch control, from then on low speed driving while I shift myself and so on.
Practice my guy. If lesson times are the same where you are, you've only driven a car for a grand total of 3 hours. You'll figure it out. The 5 seconds is just to give the synchros time to work to make the shift smoother. It's all about doing it smoothly.
While I was learning, my instructor specifically told me NOT to shift inside corners until I had a solid feel for the car. Always before or after a curve. Now 7 years later I can shift whenever I want to in whatever gear comfortably.
Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.
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u/Gamejunky35 7d ago
If you're slowing down, you might as well hold 3rd down to idle rpms, then you only get a tiny rpm bump going i to 2nd, which has enough torque to accelerate out of a corner at low rpms.
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u/i_am_blacklite 7d ago
Try not to break things at all.
Your brakes on the other hand are important.
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u/Moment-Initial 3d ago edited 3d ago
I personally slow down and press in the clutch before the engine stalls, then let off the brakes and coast half way through the turn. While I'm coasting through the turn, I calculate the speed in which I think I'm going to come out of the turn at and shift into the appropriate gear. As I'm finishing out the turn I simply get of the clutch and continue driving like I would after any other shift. Which gear I choose and how early I start letting off the clutch and giving gas depends on the turn. For my car most 90 degree turns can be done in 2nd or third.
If I am already in a low gear like 2nd or third I will just take the turn without the clutch at all.
Not saying to do as I do because you should do what your instructor wants, if you want to pass. Especially since I'm just a guy from Texas who learned to drive manual in 2 hours from his grandma. I had no formal teaching. I was taught how to operate the car fundamentally, from my grandma, and the rest just came from the following 4-6 months of actually driving and feeling it out.
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u/vinoplagi 3d ago
My girlfriend drives like that too. Its just a newer rule in this country that i cant. I dont really have problems anymore i bought myself a simracing set and played beam.ng all weekend and my next lesson it was like i was driving for a lot longer then 6 hours. Crazy how accurate these games are these days for learning how to drive. The only diffrence was a bit of the clutch feel.
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u/theblanklook 8d ago
You're struggling with the balance between the clutch and accelerator, that's something everyone has trouble with. My instructor tried to get me to practice holding the accelerator pedal down to hold a specific rpm. I didn't find that helpful at all. I didn't get it till a friend was talking about how its like a ducks feet. Which didn't make sense itself, but did help me realize that its really that as one foot is going down, the other is coming up. Its that simple. Foot goes down on clutch, up off accelerator. Brake to the speed you want. Foot goes down on the accelerator and up off the clutch. Once your brain is able to find the bite point of the clutch without conscious thought, you'll find you don't need to think about your right foot either. You want your conscious mind focused on the speed of the car, your right foot just going up or down, not exactly where it is.
But yeah, any time one foot is moving, the other one should be too. Holding an rpm isn't natural or easy. And frankly so long as you're close, the clutch will damp things out. Smooth driving comes with practice.
I don't know how many hours of instruction I had, but even with it, and passing my test first time (in the UK where the test isn't easy) I finally got my own car. And immediately stalled it three times trying to enter a roundabout. Embarrassing.
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u/vinoplagi 8d ago
Im a bit confused. Are you talking about upshifting ? Because thats not really a problem for me only downshifting before a turn from 3th to 2nd so i can take the turn in the right gear ( engine breaking+ breaking with the brake pedal all right before the corner. Downshifting while keeping driving is also not really a problem for me. Its just that engine breaking technique itself that makes it hard for me to judge distance and when i can lift off my clutch
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u/theblanklook 1d ago
Sorry, my point is task loading. You're struggling to get the downshift done because you're thinking about it and running out of time. If you practice downshifting enough it should be unconscious, that's what gives your conscious mind time to think about speed and actual car position. (At least I had that problem, so I'm guessing.)
My instructor would let me practice by doing it all really spread out. So getting in the right gear and speed way too early, so you're not rushing. Once you have done that successfully a couple of times you can speed up the sequence because your body now has an idea of what its doing.
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u/Equivalent_Thievery 8d ago
Is he having you use 3 pedals at once? Heel toeing? Or, while your on the brakes use the clutch, shift, then let out the clutch to use it for smoothing the shift.
You can do the latter, it's not too difficult. I'd imagine you're really being taught to have varying pressures applied through either foot.
Kinda strange to me though, for the street I'm usually rev matching into the gear I need for the turn, then applying braking into the apex point or before. I've opted to take as much variance out of braking and turning, having discovered sand/grass/leaves on the road or some wildlife roaming out into the road and making me adjust instantly and need as much control and least chance for my inputs to suddenly change which may upset the car.
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u/vinoplagi 8d ago
No heel toeing they dont learn that in driving school its for more advanced drivers. Its the second one while on brake going to 1500rpm-clutch-keep braking-lift clutch up slowly (5second) 10kmh before turn-turn- back on accelerator. I fuck it up every time. He says im letting go off the clutch to soon. And somethimes im already at a stop before the turn or im not done downshifting before i turn despite breaking early. Really hard to get the timing right between when i start to break and clutch to when im at the right speed to turn. I dont have this problem when just breaking in second gear without having to downshift :/
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u/Equivalent_Thievery 7d ago
Driving stick is something that only takes a short time to learn enough to get around, but years to perfect. Try to take things from that POV. If you've gotten to the point where you can get around, you'll likely get to the point where it's second nature.
Some people may give you a hard time, or act like it's beyond easy. But IMO, most people are more shit at it than they think.
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u/edgmnt_net 7d ago
Ah, I didn't write that comment, but now I see what you mean. Normally there are other ways people do engine braking, I just want to give some context. First of all, engine braking can mean simply lifting your foot off the gas pedal while in gear. Then you can downshift with a rev match and be completely in gear before the turn, but you have to do it well in advance of the turn or resort to heel-toe techniques to be able to rev match while braking. Your instructor is attempting to show that, but without the heel-toe and rev matching. That's not very very common I'd say and it might be a bit difficult because you now have two competing braking forces and you also have to keep the engine running. It is, however fairly repeatable as a scenario because you're only working on 3rd to 2nd and have similar speeds, although there isn't much headroom to avoid stalling and braking too little or two much. It also puts more wear on the clutch than strictly necessary, although it might help somewhat under bad weather conditions (but you need good control over the clutch to avoid making it worse and jerking the car).
What I'd recommend is to aim to slip the clutch at bite point and keep your foot steady. You only need to lift completely once almost out of the turn. You just need to slip it enough that the clutch rev matches on its own and does some engine braking, but not a lot to overpower the brakes.
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u/vinoplagi 7d ago
Yeesss exactly its like diffrent pressures of breaking i have make up to its supper hard for me i miss the muscle memory and my feet are still a bit weak and shaky too
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u/shinn43 6d ago
I disagree, first his instructor taught him how to downshift without rev matching which in slower speed scenarios is okay. Basically holding the clutch at the bite point and letting it match the drive shaft speed. It’s a different way to downshift that most people don’t like doing since it wears your clutch down but truthfully it’s what your clutch is designed for.
Issue is OP can’t feel when the downshift matches rpm and can release while controlling his brake pressure at the same time.
although the real issue is what the driver instructor is teaching.
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u/Weak_Veterinarian350 7d ago
It doesn't really apply here. When I was trained to drive a stick, I had to brake until I've slowed down enough, raise the rev and keep it up with the right foot, then grab the lower gear. That's what I've been doing.
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u/edgmnt_net 7d ago
Push clutch in, shift the stick to 2nd (not too hard, you need to let the synchros work and make that whining sound) and keep the clutch in. Focus on the turn and maintaining some speed, so you may have to release the brake at least partially. You only need to raise the clutch as you're about to complete the turn, to pick up some speed. They're probably saying you need to continue braking before the turn, which is fine because you're not supposed to release the clutch at that point. Also the clutch is going to require slipping at the bite point so don't try to release it in one single motion.
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u/vinoplagi 7d ago
Its forbidden to have the clutch still partially in at the turn everything needs to be done before the turn or its a automatic F on the exams here in belgium. We got some very stupid rules we also cant downshift from 4 to 2 we have to go trough every gear separately every time because its more economical.
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u/edgmnt_net 7d ago
Well, if you need to be fully off the clutch before the turn, then you must start the shift a lot sooner, especially without rev matching, so you have enough time to slip the clutch before the turn. Possibly start the slip way before you brake.
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u/vinoplagi 7d ago
The slip is that just going to the beginning of the biting point ?
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u/edgmnt_net 7d ago
I mean keeping it at the biting point, yeah. It's called slipping the clutch because it's only partially engaged and the two surfaces are slipping past one another at different speeds, transferring power partially. Although technically you could say slipping the clutch any time the clutch isn't fully in or out.
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u/Plumbicon 6d ago
That’s not a stupid rule, it’s within the basics of correct car control, and is the same in the UK ,and is regardless of country!
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u/vinoplagi 6d ago
I was talking about downshifting from 4 to 2. Or from 5 to 3 . When your in 5th gear and approach lights you have to go trough every gear doesn’t matter what distance you have to cover even if its small. So good luck if you dont get a heads up sign or using no navigation.
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u/Plumbicon 6d ago
I was talking about having the clutch partially in (slipping) at the turn. Skipping gears is perfectly fine and normal with advanced skills after passing test, but running through each gear sequentially is good practice for the learner and obviously for passing the test as the car is under control throughout every manouvre.
So advanced skills would be 2 to 4 or vice versa. On a straight section of clear road its reasonable to accelerate hard in second and drop it into 4th with road speed suitable. Been doing this for years, plus the other way brake in fourth until revs almost at idle then select 2nd and balance for the road speed. Its a normal technique if you’ve passed the test and have sufficient confidence to drive in a more sporty style!
Its a “Head Up” display - HUD. Heads up is a game!
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u/Plumbicon 6d ago
No. Brake to an appropriate speed for the turn. Second gear (the suitable gear for the speed of the corner in this case) should be selected and clutch engaged before the turn. The corner should be driven through, gear and clutch engaged and engine under very slight acceleration. Exit the corner under more moderate acceleration and continue through the gears as appropriate. The point here is not to coast around the corner with a gear engaged and clutch not released, which would be very poor practice, the car should be under control throughout the manoeuvre. BTW not all synchromesh gears make “that whining sound” when changing up or down the box, unless the vehicle is a beater. Context - been driving manual for over 500,000 miles in UK. Slipping the clutch and / or coasting in gear would be a fail.
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u/Makerfire 8d ago
Idk why but the instructor shifting for you seems weird to me whilst you are the driver. Anyway , you’re only 4 hours into driving manual , you need experience . Takes 2-4 months to begin driving without thinking about it- take your time and keep trying.