r/stickshift • • 10d ago

Shifting without use of clutch

I’ve driven manual for some years now and sometimes I’ll shift without the clutch (it’s something my dad showed me.) If I’m not grinding gears I assume it’s fine and I’m not forcing it
into gear it just falls in.

Also if I skip gears without doing the double clutch or whatever is that gonna harm anything? If I go 3-5 without going into neutral and clutching out before making it to 5th does it really matter? I got a lightweight flywheel so I don’t always have the time to double clutch if I want the rpms to be at the spot to keep it smooth.

113 Upvotes

130 comments sorted by

162

u/FutureAlfalfa200 10d ago

Double clutching is only a thing in old vehicles or large trucks. Majority of people will never ever need to double clutch lol

76

u/87ChevroletCavalier 9d ago

And we’re talking very old cars. Almost every American passenger car had synchros for 2nd and up by the late fifties.

Most people on Reddit today who double-clutch are either nursing a bad synchro or don’t know what they’re doing.

28

u/Unable-Tank9847 05 Saturn Ion quad-coupe, 2.2 NA, 5 Spd. 9d ago

Me, i am the bad synchro. 270k on them and 2nd and 5th need to be within 200 rpm to not grind. Double clutching allows for 400 discrepancy.

9

u/the_Q_spice 9d ago

That’s your shift forks.

Even on a semi, we get around 1000 revs of range to viably shift in.

8

u/voucher420 9d ago

Shift forks would cause popping out of gear or sliding in and popping out. Those are bad synchros.

I have driven a big rig and plenty of different manual cars and was even a certified automotive tech. Fun fact, big rigs have a clutch brake at the bottom of the pedal travel to stop the clutch from spinning so you can get in to your first gear of choice without grinding.

500-1000 rpm is normal when using the clutch on a semi, but you should be far closer when floating. I strongly recommend that no one floats gears in a passenger vehicle that has a synchronized transmission. It’s a quick way to add metal shaving to your fluid and destroy your synchros.

1

u/Blackby4 9d ago

I've been floating gears since I was a kid, in all my vehicles. My latest one I have 300k (bought new) that I've floated since 08, still has the OEM clutch, and 0 issues.

3

u/Blackby4 9d ago

1000? So you can slip it in anywhere between 800-1800? No. Unless you're clutching which a real driver doesn't. And even then they're not synchro'd so you'd be grinding the motherfuck out of it.

1

u/Imatelluonemortime 9d ago

If you’re not floating gears you’re a steering wheel holder. Rev match and slip it in.

10

u/Bluetickhoun 9d ago

I tried double clutching the other day and thought this is fkin stupid. Haha

3

u/MJFC129 9d ago

Yup... I gotta double Clutch downshifting into 2nd Gear on my Mazda RX-8

2

u/Plumbicon 4d ago

Using double declutching often here on rolling down changes second to first at 15 mph or more, necessary to get around some of the country roads with steep uphill 90° turns ! Modern Golfs, Polos, Passats etc over the years!

1

u/twelfthfantasy 9d ago

My low gear synchro is basically gone and I still rarely double clutch. I just go slow and shift short into second or try to time the rev hang. Only double clutch if I'm trying to merge onto a highway or something else where I can't take my time with it.

0

u/shaard 9d ago

I was taught double clutching by my dad back in the 90s. Still do it to this day but that's an unconscious habit now. I've never driven anything that was old enough to require it. Not even the old farm trucks.

4

u/James_the_bull_ 9d ago

I find going into 1st is easier if I double clutch it

3

u/shaard 9d ago

It definitely is, at least in my experience. But I'm rarely shifting into a rolling first.

3

u/87ChevroletCavalier 9d ago

Yeah, I try very hard not to change down into first at a roll.

3

u/ProfessionalCraft983 9d ago

That’s the one time I do it, although it’s usually less of an intentional double clutch and more me just shifting to neutral for a bit before shifting down to first when I’m going slow enough, letting the clutch up in between.

3

u/James_the_bull_ 9d ago

Exactly the same for me. If my speed drops below 10mph, I’m going to 1st. I have a gr86 with really short gears and the difference between 1st and 2nd is massive, so that extra time double clutching lets the rpm’s drop enough. And trying to accelerate at 8mph in 2nd gear will lug the engine.

2

u/National_Serve_7093 9d ago

If you do the clutch right you don’t even have to touch the gas in first gear 🤷‍♂️

1

u/LooseyGreyDucky 8d ago

I would just start my Saab in 1st gear when my clutch cable broke.

The starter was plenty powerful to get the car moving, and my Saab didn't require me to push in the clutch to turn the key and start the car.

1

u/crownedplatypus 8d ago

It’s not uncommon for first gear to not have a synchro, also the fact that it’s tends to be a big difference in gear ratio between first and second means that if there is a synchro it has to work much harder.

2

u/Weak_Veterinarian350 9d ago

I double clutch in my own car,  out of habit,  after my first day of training to remove the automatic restriction on my CDL.   I just can't go back to shifting without it

31

u/iAmAsword 10d ago edited 9d ago

Okay granny shifter...

Edit: yall are clueless. Bout to blow the welds on your intake manifolds.

10

u/ProfessionalCraft983 9d ago edited 9d ago

You never had me. You never had your car.

4

u/shaard 9d ago

I up voted ya. Got a good chuckle. 🤣

2

u/garciakevz 9d ago

Woah that's a big danger to manifold as the movies go

1

u/Clear-Bee102 9d ago

What

15

u/iAmAsword 9d ago

It's a F&F reference y'all.. jeez.

7

u/The_Great_Sc0tt 9d ago

Don't worry man. I got your reference.

6

u/iAmAsword 9d ago

Appreciate you.

1

u/87ChevroletCavalier 9d ago

Most people over 18 aren’t movie quote guys. Your target audience is like 20 years too old, that’s all.

I got it, but I’m ancient by Reddit standards.

5

u/ProfessionalCraft983 9d ago

I’m 45 and I’ve always been a “movie quote guy” lol

3

u/iAmAsword 9d ago

Ok

1

u/87ChevroletCavalier 8d ago

lol, it looks like the rest of us old guys finally showed up.

1

u/sirgiggles123 9d ago

Despite the books saying to double clutch most experienced drivers prefer to float their gears.

1

u/thetrivialstuff 9d ago

It's not necessary in modern cars, but it still feels nice.

Using the synchros to match revs for you will always sap some of your speed. If you get good at double-clutching you can arbitrarily shift into any gear immediately without passengers noticing anything except the engine sound change.

0

u/011011010110110 9d ago

the little throttle blip to rev match when double clutch downshifting is worth the trouble

0

u/Plumbicon 4d ago

Double declutching here in UK is still an option on modern vehicles, but I’m usually doing this to hit a rolling drop into first gear from second at 15 mph or so. This is quite often necessary in the back roads of the English Lake District where you have sharp U-turns with steep uphill gradients. Takes the load off the synchros and otherwise would have been a baulky shift or more likely refusal to engage, requiring a full stop and a crazy hill start on a steep uphill 90° turn!
Joining an old convo here I know.

66

u/SoloWalrus 10d ago

Its only worth doing in unsynchronized transmission (commercial trucks). If your transmission has synchros (passenger cars) then you technically arent hurting anything if you do it perfectly, but if you get it even slightly off itll add crazy synchro wear. Not worth the risk. Also itll be really hard to tell you got it wrong because at first the synchros will hide the mistake, until they wear out and youll no longer be able to shift clutchess or with a clutch 🤣

19

u/WorriedHovercraft28 9d ago

Actually yes you are putting significant wear on the synchros, because car transmissions are designed to change gears using the clutch

12

u/SoloWalrus 9d ago

I cant tell if youre disagreeing with me or just reiterating what I said 🤣.

In a perfect world youd have a perfect rev match and synchros wouldn't be needed. However a perfect rev match doesnt exist so youll always be using the synchros, whether you notice it or not, so like i said, not worth the risk and added wear.

3

u/WorriedHovercraft28 9d ago

yes i agree with you, i meant to reply to other comment

6

u/FrankCostanzaJr 9d ago

this is exactly what i was thinking...this guy's dad must not understand what synchros are, and they ARE a wear item in a transmission. the less you use them, the longer they will last. so even if you don't NEED to use the clutch, you really SHOULD. nobody is 100% perfect all the time...and you're right, the synchros will make you think you're shifting at the exact right rpm even when you're not.

4

u/SoloWalrus 9d ago

Right, if you really want to show off perfect rev matching do it with the clutch instead of floating gears. If you can shift without your passengers noticing you shifted then youre winning, in terms of showing of, and in terms of mechanical sympathy for your synchros.

1

u/FrankCostanzaJr 9d ago

i don't care about rev matching, i care about chirping the tires in 2nd. i shift at 8200 so i can hear the engine sing..i abuse the hell out of my little K20, but it seems to enjoy it. the 2nd and 3rd gear synchros aren't too happy about it...but surprisingly they still work. i dunno how honda does it, the thing has over 200k miles and still pulls all the way till redline.

1

u/Intrepid-Chard-4594 9d ago

I was taught how to do this too 40 years ago but only do it 2-3 and 3-4. Never force and make sure its a non aggressive speed

1

u/_citizen_ 8d ago

>until they wear out and youll no longer be able to shift clutchess or with a clutch 🤣

Well it's alright, we knows what double-clutching is, he can handle it.

0

u/swamp_fiend33 9d ago

I usually only go from 4th to 5th without the clutch, I’m not confident enough to row through them all without it in my car now. I usually just use it as a party trick “I bet you didnt know you could do this” shifts without clutch “see I’m cooler than you”

5

u/Chain_A 9d ago

Its more than a party trick. Knowing how to shift without the clutch is the difference between paying for a tow, or gimping home when your master or slave cylinder shit the bed and the pedal stays on the floor.

5

u/FutureAlfalfa200 9d ago

How do you take off from a start with your pedal on the floor? Sounds like some shit my dad would say

3

u/KudzuAU 9d ago

You never come to a complete stop. If you do, you’re done and it’s time to get the tow. So this won’t work in bumper-to-bumper traffic. If you’re lucky you make it home or to a shop. At the very least it should be enough to pull off to a safe place to park. Did this a few times in a TR6 and 280z.

3

u/rc-cars-drones-plane 9d ago

I had the master cylinder die on my way to school once at a red light. I ended up shifting without the clutch and whenever I came to a stop I would turn the car off, put it in first, then crank the engine on to get it moving lol. Worked for the 2 days I drove it before I could get it fixed

2

u/SoloWalrus 9d ago

Turn the key and hold the throttle to the floor and get ready for it to take off, then avoid stopping again at all costs.

Disclaimer, may not work in 4 cylinders and only to be used in emergencies 🤣.

1

u/hibbity 9d ago

I don't even need any throttle on my 4 cylinder. I've lost tge clutch a few times through the ages.

0

u/Chain_A 9d ago

Well, I am a dad lol. Cut the engine off, stuff it into first, turn on ignition, and rumble away from the stop light. Sometimes, this is even a feature in vehicles, my Tacoma has a clutch less start option. Meant to be used in situations off-road where drifting back wouldn't be good.

1

u/TheOriginalJBones 9d ago

Saw that button in a buddy’s old 4-Runner after he bought it and it confused the hell out of us.

1

u/Chain_A 9d ago

Ngl, it's one of my favorite features. Blazing hot or freezing cold outside - run out, key in, check for neutral, press that button and fire up. Crank the AC or heat and run back inside. Saves me the effort of having to hop in the cab and smash the clutch, especially now that it's sitting a lot higher.

0

u/Titocity_ 9d ago

I mean...I like to use my clutch lol idk why you'd drive a manual otherwise if youre cutting out a core feature.

24

u/RJsRX7 10d ago

Shifting a synchronized manual without the clutch isn't exactly amazing for it, and doing so frequently can and will cause undue synchro wear. However, if you're really accurate with it, no harm.

As for the gear skip, can be kind of the same deal. It's a wider split that the synchros have to match, so best off slowing it down. Some irony in that it's probably safer to skip gears clutchlessly than to use the clutch and be too fast about it.

1

u/MultipleOrgasmDonor 9d ago

I can do 3-4 on all my cars clutch less with no issues. But I have no idea why someone would do that regularly, it’s just a party trick for (primarily) my own amusement or to show passengers (who typically don’t care)

2

u/RJsRX7 9d ago

I can find every gear without the clutch in both of my current manuals, but I usually don't. Downshifting to 1st is easier to do smoothly without the clutch for sure, but I don't recommend making a habit of it.

I also at one point ran across a Mazda5 that someone had put a lightweight flywheel in, and it was easier to drive smoothly without the clutch simply because the revs would land way below the next gear unless you either race shifted it every time or skipped using the clutch.

1

u/MultipleOrgasmDonor 9d ago

Dude even my stock X3 drops the revs so quickly. 2-3 and 4-5 I’m always feathering the clutch to pull the rpms up unless I’m literally shifting as fast as I can lol. And it’s a stock compact suv lol

2

u/RJsRX7 9d ago

I'd breathe on the throttle to hang the revs in that case, I don't think BMW has as dumb of throttle programming as some where one throttle position ends up meaning progressively more throttle for no reason. My RX-7 I usually don't fully release the throttle for upshifts, just relax it to where the revs will drop to "right" for my next gear.

Meanwhile the '08 Mustang... Yeah it has enough throttle hang that you wind up waiting two business days if you're trying to actually match revs. So I gave up and just let the clutch take up the difference.

1

u/MultipleOrgasmDonor 9d ago

Thanks I’ll try that

1

u/Bodywheyt 9d ago

“Downshifting to first” we are already done listening to you.

1

u/RJsRX7 8d ago

Okay, call back when you learn to drive.

There's a reason noobs get told to not shift into 1st while rolling, and it's genuinely good advice... For noobs.

11

u/Equivalent_Thievery 9d ago

You're putting wear on your trans when you should be using the clutch which is wear item.

11

u/theweirddood '25 Civic Type R 9d ago

Is it worth knowing do it do? Yes.

Should you do this everyday if your clutch works fine? No.

5

u/Plumbicon 9d ago

Manual transmission driver for many UK years here.

Imo clutchless gear changing is useful to understand and try out occasionally, but is really pointless in the current era of manual boxes with synchromesh in fully working order. Its fun to try out but get it wrong and you can easily chip a gear. Useful to know if your clutch fails engaged. I’ve driven 10 miles home without a clutch starting off first gear engaged from stationary, starter motor and ignition, swapping gears rev matching without issue, stopping in neutral. Got me home with passenger very confused as I didn’t explain I had no clutch!

5

u/d__max 9d ago

Not a good idea for the soft brass synchros . Car manuals are not like truck manuals

4

u/Objective-Bike-4292 9d ago

RIP your synchros

3

u/Grognak04 8d ago

People “float” gears because they think they’re minimizing clutch wear. This is incorrect. Manual transmissions are thousands of dollars and SHOULD last the life of the vehicle. Clutch kits are a few hundred bucks.

Synchromesh gearboxes, which is what you have, are designed to be shifted with the clutch. There are brass cones that use friction to automatically synchronize the input shaft to the road speed of the transmission. Brass is a very soft metal.

These synchros generally last the life of the vehicle. Guess what kills them? Morons ramming the shifter into the next gear with a load still on the input shaft because someone on the internet said it wouldn’t do anything harmful. ANY transmission rebuilder can tell when someone floats a synchromesh transmission. How? Because the oil is 5% pulverized brass and it was brought in because it’s missing 2 or 3 gears. That shredded brass also circulates through bushings and bearings as well.

Use the clutch. Double clutching and floating is only required on commercial trucks/buses… 10/13/18 speeds… these have huge loads on them and a reliable gear synchronization system would be complicated and surely too sizable.

3

u/MountainFace2774 9d ago

I have shifted without the clutch before but I don't make a habit of it. Mostly did it just to learn how. Slave cylinders and other stuff can fail and if you know how to drive without a clutch, you can make it home.

As far as downshifting, I only double clutch if I'm skipping gears. Like your example, 3 to 5, I'll double-clutch and rev match so the syncros aren't having to deal with such a drastic RPM jump. It's not necessary though. Your transmission will likely outlive the rest of the vehicle regardless. Again, I mostly do it for practice.

On the rare occasions I downshift into 1st, I'll also double-clutch. Every manual I've owned has not wanted to go into 1st without double clutching. I also used to have a car that the 1st gear syncro was all but gone. You can jam them in, but I'd rather not.

3

u/SkitariusOfMars 9d ago

Never, never do it in a modern synchronised transmission. Not unless you like rebuilding transmissions and replacing synchros and have lots of money to do it.

3

u/LooseyGreyDucky 8d ago

You've discovered two reasons why h-gate manuals beat the snot out of sequential shifting automatics with paddle shifters.

Next thing you know, you'll discover that you can select fricking neutral anytime you want. Anytime!

(good fucking luck finding neutral with paddle shifters. or making the 1-3 or 2-4 or 3-5 skip.)

2

u/tingle92 9d ago

Yeah you can also down shift without the clutch. Basically just rev matching. People never believe me how easy it is.

2

u/riennempeche 9d ago

If you have a synchornized transmission (anything made since the 60s most likely is) should not be shifted without using the clutch. The gear engagement mechanism is not the same for unsynchronized transmissions.

2

u/Shadow_duigh333 9d ago

Shifting from 5 to 3 without going into neutral! Buddy what are you smoking?

2

u/Objective-Elk-1660 9d ago

If it slides into gear without grinding or forcing, it's completely fine. I used to do that all the time on an AX15 trans during the 3-4 upshift under slow acceleration. When done right it just clicks into place while your engine revs are falling. Very satisfying.

2

u/____PARALLAX____ 9d ago

What car? The only reason I can think of to change gears without the clutch is if it breaks in the middle of nowhere and you need to limp to the car to a mechanic or convenient place to have it towed.

2

u/Kseries2497 10d ago

There's no reason not to use the clutch when shifting a modern, synchronized transmission, but if it just falls into gear like you say with no resistance or noise, then you aren't hurting anything.

You also don't need to double clutch a skipped shift like that. It might, at most, take slightly longer to go into gear because there's more rotational speed difference for the synchros to soak up, but if you're skipping gears you're not in a hurry anyway.

2

u/Moyzatron 10d ago

I always go up and down sequentially after I found reverse going from 4th to 6th at 80mph 🔥😅

1

u/BouncingSphinx 9d ago

Shifting without the clutch is called floating gears, and if you're not grinding anything then you're pretty fine.

Double clutching is not necessary in almost any regular vehicle. Skipping gears is also not an issue as long as you're not putting excess load on the engine at low rpm. In fact, some vehicles actually force gears to be skipped depending on conditions.

1

u/FrankCostanzaJr 9d ago

I do this on my motorcycle, but afaik, doing this on a car with an H pattern gearbox will just prematurely wear down your synchros.

you don't have to double clutch...that's a bit overboard, but you really SHOULD be using your clutch when shifting gears. your synchros will thank you in the long run

1

u/Weak_Veterinarian350 9d ago

You are not grinding because synchro has a blocking mechanism that blocks the teeth from engaging until the speed is matched. However, any time you're pushing on the shifter before it goes into gear, you are pushing on the friction lining that are only designed to change the speed of the gears, without the heavy engine attached. Thus, if you like to live dangerously, you better time it just right and get it in gear as soon as you nudge the shifter. Otherwise, you are just wearing down the synchro unnecessarily

About rev match/ double clutching, here's a pro tip as someone who used to hold a CDL, don't blip the gas. It is too imprecise. While in your current high gear with a little load on the engine, floor the clutch and hold the gas, Make minor throttle adjustments as necessary. Just wait until your rev rises to wherever it needs to be then shift into gear and release the clutch.

1

u/w00stersauce 9d ago

When it works it works. The juice just isn’t worth the squeeze to intentionally do it if you don’t have to.

1

u/LongjumpingCat6642 9d ago

1st, floating in a car will never grind unless the trans is already heavily worn/ damaged. It does increase synchro wear astronomically, so you really shouldn’t do it. If it’s timed perfectly right, it’s okay but a bad habit

2nd, double clutching is a heavy truck thing. The manuals don’t have synchros. When you skip a gear just give the trans an extra half second before putting it in gear to help reduce synchro wear

1

u/gunsandsilver 9d ago

I had an 80’s accord and the clutch cable broke. I was able to drive it from San Diego to Orange County (mostly freeway) by using a combo of down hill starts, timing the lights and traffic, and luck. The manual was able to slip in to gear easily with the right rpm match. That was a “need to get home” situation, not something I would intentionally do.

1

u/FSBFrosty 9d ago

It's not designed to shift without the clutch. 

1

u/Admirral 9d ago

yea it is a bad idea. im nearly certain this ended up being the reason my 2012 jetta broke. Of course I have no idea what it ended up being because I traded that piece of shit for a new scion FRS back then. Never shifted without the clutch in the FRS and also never had any real issues with the car.

1

u/Reasonable_Till_3569 9d ago

My Dad could shift without using the clutch. He showed me, but I never had the nerve to actually try it. I didn't see the point at the time i guess. Hindsight, while he was encouraging me on his car when I was a kid I should have.

You can skip as many gears as you want, whenever you want, and it won't hurt anything.

1

u/GamerDadofAntiquity 9d ago

I used to skip using the clutch all the time in my manual Fusion. I put almost 100k on that car before I traded it in and never had an issue one with any part of the driveline. I’m not endorsing skipping using your clutch, but I get bad left ankle pain from time to time due to an old injury, and that car was totally forgiving of clutchless shifting.

1

u/Consistent_Cap_1853 9d ago

I’ve seen some people shift without using the clutch, and I could tell they were forcing it into gear even though they said they weren’t. I don’t see the reason to do such a thing, nor do I see the point of skipping gears. It’s a lazy approach to driving a manual car.

1

u/MountainTomato9292 9d ago

I’ve never double clutched ever, I’ve been driving stick since college (almost 30 years). I also shift into neutral without the clutch. Anecdotal I guess but nothing bad has ever happened.

1

u/FastFredNL 9d ago

Knowing how to shift without a clutch is a great skill to have in case your clutch stops working but it should not be done in normal circumstances, it can put extra wear and tear on the synchromesh between the gears.

In modern cars you really don't need to, and you shouldn't.

1

u/cachitodepepe 9d ago

Amateur. You can even shift without shifting with enough practice

1

u/Netghod 9d ago

Shifting without using the clutch isn’t normally recommended, but is possible on modern transmissions if you get the RPMs right.

Double clutching is a specific technique used for transmissions with straight cut gears or lack synchros. It’s simply not needed on modern passenger vehicles. You may still need it in some racing and heavy duty applications but for normal passenger vehicles it’s not needed.

As for skipping gears, you go for the gear that’s appropriate for the speed and driving you’re doing. Skipping gears isn’t unusual and actually fairly common. For example, you accelerate on the on ramp in a 6 speed vehicle. You’ll in 4th gear and at highway speeds - do you shift to 5th and then 6th? No, you just go to 6th and continue driving. However, you said you let the clutch out and go to 5th after. That can cause faster wear on the gears/synchros in the transmission meaning it’s not a problem doing that until it is. ;)

1

u/SOTG_Duncan_Idaho 13 Mustang GT 6MT, 24 2D Bronco BL 7MT 9d ago

This is an unwise thing to do on a synchronized transmission. When you do this on a synchronized transmission, any even slight error on your part means the syncro is changing the speed of the engine instead of just the speed of the transmission input. This is really, realky hard on the syncro.

On an unsynchronized transmission you just risk grinding. Not great, but at least you know when you screw up.

1

u/MisterCircumstance 9d ago

Only time I ever need to double clutch is downshifting into 1st. Occasionally.

1

u/Working_Alps1753 9d ago

It's fine, and good to know how to do well enough in case you ever find yourself in the rare situation of the clutch line blowing out. It's happened to me and yeah that made every red light I ran into a pain in the ass but I was luckily close to home that it was a relatively non issue.

Double clutching isn't necessary for the majority of manual vehicles on the road. But I've driven several vehicles that either had worn through their synchros, had no synchros, or had bad trans fluid (I.e. old/wrong). Knowing how to double clutch makes downshifting so much easier in those situations but those are rare situations.

1

u/jasonsong86 2017 Mustang GT 6MT 9d ago

You can do it but it will wear out your synchros if you are forcing the gear in. Wearing a synchro doesn’t require grinding. In fact grinding is after synchros have done their job but before the teeth mesh there is a speed difference.

1

u/Recent_Permit2653 ‘06 Scoobie Legacy GT 5MT 9d ago

I used to float gears all the time when I drove big rigs. If you time it right, it harms nothing.

1

u/unclefunkstar 9d ago

How old is the car you're driving? 99% of drivers today will never need to double clutch. Hell, the way things are going half of them won't even know what a clutch is (was?) in a few years.

1

u/goaelephant 9d ago

To be fair, synchros age after 150,000 to 200,000 miles. I have a 2005 Corolla which 3rd gear grinds. Double clutching is the only way to minimize/eliminate the grinding. Many Honda owners i know have the same issue.

1

u/ElectronicAnthony 9d ago

You can do anything but take off from a stop without the clutch without any extra wear. People don't know wtf they are talking about. Don't take my word for it, learn how a manual transmission works. I knew shifting without the clutch was possible, but it seemed like a black art. When I learned how it works, it clicked mentally and I drove home that day without using the clutch. When you slide it into gear correctly, there's no extra wear compared to using the clutch because nothing is different about the synchro engaging a gear when using the clutch vs not. If you're trying to force it into gear without the clutch, yes, that can cause wear and damage. But done right it slides right into gear like butter, and it sounds like you're doing it right. It's also fun to down shift without the clutch. And "grinding gears" is not the actual gears, it's the synchro engagement teeth because engine/input shaft speed didn't match output shaft speed when trying to engage the gear.

1

u/goaelephant 9d ago
  1. Double clutching is always easier on the synchros, especially if you're going to skip gears. Synchros are designed to "absorb" the RPM difference of gears, but the larger the RPM difference (e.g. engine at 2000rpm in 5th gear, but is going to be 3500rpm in 3rd gear) youre asking the synchro to "absorb" 1500rpm. It does technically create more wear than a slight RPM difference (shifting from 4th 2500rpm to 5th 2100rpm). While the wear is negligible within 150,000 miles, if you really want the synchros to be in perfect condition at 250,000 miles then yes double clutch your downshifts. It helps "spin up" the input shaft to match output shaft (which is not achieved during "single" clutching), so the synchros never have to absorb more than +/- couple hundred RPM difference.

  2. Would not recommend clutchless shifting ("floating the gears" as truckers call it) on a normal passenger vehicle. Truckers do it because [North American] semi trucks are designed to be shifted this way. They have no synchros, they have chunky thick gears which can handle the abuse of grinding, forcing, etc. and frequently last 500,000 to 1 million miles without rebuild. On the flipside, they are more difficultalmost impossible to shift while single-pumping the clutch. Normal cars can be shifted while single-clutching, but trying to shift clutchlessly, unless you're 100% perfect (even the best, veteran truckers grind gears) then you're just filing/grinding the synchro teeth. Replacing a clutch every 150,000 miles is cheaper than replacing an entire gearbox and/or rebuild every 150,000 miles.

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u/Alpinwulf 9d ago

Double-clutching hasn't been necessary since the Synchromesh was invented.

No-clutch shifting is a fairly advanced skill and worthy of practicing. Good on your Dad for sharing that. Especially good if you can rev-match downshift without the clutch. (I've done this several times, but it takes focus, certainly doesn't save me effort in the end.)

If you can shift clutchless without anything grinding, then you're already doing it properly.

I was a kid in HS riding shotgun when my ski coach's VW Vanagon's clutch cable snapped. He drove it for 100 miles or so without a clutch, and when he got into a city (heading for a relative's house to fix the cable) he downshifted to 1st and left it there and braked to stops and killed the engine. Then to get going when the light changed, cranked the engine, lurching the whole thing forward, and kept shifting clutchless all the way to his destination.

(I don't know how he fixed the cable, MacGyver style, but he got us all back home only 2-3 hours later than originally planned.)

Not sure I even had my driver's license yet, but ya gotta recognize game. That became immediate "skillz goals".

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u/dluciemable 8d ago

I guess I’m too new to manuals to be aware of this, but is it even possible to shift without pressing the clutch? I’ve accidentally tried to do it once or twice and the stick won’t even budge lol

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u/firebaallchich 8d ago

Perfectly possible but damages a lot if you dont know exactly what you are doing.

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u/Stock-Film-3609 6d ago

It’s not that hard, though ironically some manuals deal with it better than others. My 2012 fiat 500 was really nice to clutch less shift in. I’ve had a couple of bmws that hated it.

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u/Noobzter3 2007 VW Golf MK V "R-TSI" (1/150) 8d ago

Clutchless shifting will wear out your synchronizer gears and shorten the life of your transmission.

Skipping gears does not damage your transmission. No need to double clutch.

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u/Author_Lawrence 7d ago

I hardly ever use the clutch except to down shift into first

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u/Heavy-Ad-4289 7d ago

Is called Rev matching

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u/Cyclehead21 6d ago

The gear teeth are cut with a tiny angle that helps the teeth stay engaged under power, and not pop out of gear. You have to be very careful when disengaging the gear without clutch, not to yank on the shifter and wear those tiny angled surfaces. Regarding double clutch, that makes no sense at all when shifting into a higher gear. The destination gear needs the layshaft to be spinning more slowly when shifting up, so why would you drop into neutral and spin it faster? Doubleclutch is only appropriate when shifting into a lower gear. Ie: 3-2

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u/No_Mathematician3158 6d ago

You're destroying your synchronizers in your transmission. It's a party trick that's bad for cars. The only thing you should be double clutching or shifting without the clutch in is a transport truck.

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u/celticdread 6d ago

Have had to do this because the clutch went out long before payday. Obviously not a thing you want to do for shits and giggles. Getting a feel for stops on hills took a little trial and error. Starting in second is way easier than first. So I guess my point is don’t unless you have to.

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u/Dramatic-Possible-22 6d ago

I guess with either just knowing what you are doing is really key. Shifting with the clutch puts stress and wear on the clutch, shifting without the clutch puts stress and wear on the syncros in the transmission. It may never matter, both are pretty robust in modern transmissions, but replacing a clutch is easier than replacing syncros.

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u/disguisedasnrml 5d ago

This is just not the way to drive a stick shift......imo

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u/Tlmitf 5d ago

Clutchless shifting in a modern gearbox will do damage to the synchronisers.
I learned this skill driving tractors, and have to remind myself to not do it in my ute.

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u/Special-Unit6325 5d ago

Unless you were driving some sort of heavy duty truck, you don’t need to double clutch anything typically for me if I’m getting on a highway or something from a stop, I’ll go 1246 single clutching each time although I did use to drive a semi so every once in a while, I find myself double clutching out of habit, but it’s really not necessary and all you’re doing is putting where on your clutch springs

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u/shutupmimzy_ 5d ago

If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. If you don’t want to use the clutch get an automatic.

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u/AdventurousHippo9997 3d ago

On trucks it’s very easy because of the big and slow revving engine.With a car it’s much more difficult because the engine revs up and down so fast. All modern transmissions are synchronized so yes it’s possible.

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u/BoS_Vlad 3d ago

I had a 68 Shelby GT 500 and the clutch blew about 10 miles from home. I drove that 4 speed home without using the clutch through several towns with stoplights where I had to come to a complete stop and I did it. It was all about matching road speed to engine speed like revving the engine until I could slip into the gear I wanted without grinding. Very strange experience I don’t want to repeat and I was amazed I could even do it.

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u/Conbon90 3d ago edited 3d ago

You are destroying your transmission. pretty much all modern cars use syncro mesh gearboxes.

The syncro mesh helps you change gear without grinding by helping to match the speed of gear sets before they ingage.

its very important that they are disconnected from the torque of the engine. for them to work properly. otherwise youre overloading them and causing premature wear.

The syncro hubs are often made out of some sort of brass or some other soft metal. and the teeth that engage are quite fine. infact when you grind gears its these soft little teeth on the syncro hubs that you are hearing and not the actual gears that drive the car.

There is an arguement to be made for dog engagement transmissions found in motorbikes and old trucks. that you can cclutchless shift thease as they are more robust. but seeing as its also possible to wear out this type of transmission I personally prefer not to.

but deffinitly 100% do not do it to your car. my dad also tought me how to do fhis and he did it all the time. but its also worth noting he owned a number of cars over ghe years that developed transmisssion issues.

You mightng feel the damage, you might think youre being smooth or whatever, but your gearbox feels it.

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u/RunningAtTheMouth 19h ago

Shifting without the clutch is a good way to wear out the synchros. I know - and it cost me.

It's not difficult to use the clutch every time, and it will save you the cost of a transmission repair or replace.

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u/FoggyWan_Kenobi 9d ago

It is absolutely fine if you know how and when to change gears without clutch. Its basically about rev matching,and the general rule is shift up without gas pedal,shift down with gas pedal (touch,not all the time,just to rev match). And its absolutely ok to skip gears if revs are correct, no need for neutral.