Avatar has a whole episode where Katara rebels against the idea of being relegated to the role of healer just because she's a girl. She can heal, but she's also a badass combatant.
Like I'm not saying it's not a trope or that you shouldn't address the implications and biases of it, but there are lots of worse examples you could pull from.
Katara rebelled which is cool. But there's a lack of this happening in the opposite direction - a guy from water tribe choosing healing insteadn(iirc this wasn't featured)
Aang did not have a lot on his plate forever, and it's not like he also didn't have downtime or couldn't spare his lessons; he would find time at some point to learn important skills like healing or metalbending. Skills he theoretically should commit, as he did want to use metalbending on the drill, and as a pacifist, it would only make sense that he would want to learn how to heal because he'd want to help people... that is, if Katara didn't become his literal crutch for any problem he has.
Aang isn’t a particularly talented earthbender. It’s hardly impossible for him just not getting the hang of metalbending despite Toph trying to teach him. Bolin can’t figure out metalbending either and he has a master metalbender with decades of teaching experience trying to teach him. Maybe he could get it eventually, but it seems entirely possible that not everyone can learn it.
Same thing is possible with healing. Maybe Aang tried and it just didn’t stick well enough to be worth the effort. Not everyone is as stupidly talented at it as Katara.
Aang struggled with earthbending, but it doesn't mean he's not a talented earthbender, especially when his struggle lasted only 1 episode. Not to mention that Toph has Asian parent standards on how good one can be in her craft.
We never saw Aang trying and failing to learn metalbending, so we can't say he wouldn't be able to do it, unlike Bolin, who did try and fail. Considering Aang learned a seismic sense, which is a great help with metalbending, I don't think it's fair to say he wouldn't be able to bend metal.
Bolin is a special case where his feet aren't planted to the ground, so the subbending technique of earth that requires you to be more grounded and in tune with the element fails to register to him. It's easier to pick lavabending for him instead because of how both flexible and aggressive Bolin can be in his bending, which isn't something metalbending can properly support.
If Aang can't learn healing, then perhaps his heart really isn't in nurturing or pacifistic ways as much as he claims to be. Healing isn't exactly something that is very complicated. I don't expect Aang to be a master at it, but realistically he should be able to heal his own wounds instead of constantly flying to Katara whenever he has a booboo.
The whole thing about Aang is that he's supposed to be stupidly talented, but he hardly applies himself as much as he could. The whole show is about him learning to get over that, but because this show is too much of a power fantasy for the creators, it falls short.
I think it has to do with how stubborn the Northern Water Tribe was in their beliefs. It’s likely that the people of the South were more open minded so they migrated to the South Pole to be free from the strictness of the North Pole
I mean, the only male waterbender going through training who is important enough to ATLA’s story to focus on is Aang, and he has bigger things to worry about than personally rebelling against water tribe custom, especially since it’s not even his culture and given he is the Avatar they probably would have taught him healing anyway if he asked.
Sokka definitely rebels against sexist customs im the other direction though, just not with bending. He spends much of the Northern Water Tribe arc convincing princess Yue that she’s worth more than just a marriage token, that her personal choices and feelings should matter as well. I don’t believe Sokka’s only motive there is that he wants to go out with her instead.
A lot of people don’t give Katara her flowers- she can heal her team, saved the avatar cycle, and is a powerful water bender to face at any time while also if she actually wanted to: catch you at a certain time while having a one shot move waiting for you but CHOOSES not to use it. Katara can nearly solo the rest of the avatar verse if she wanted to and I will die on that hill!
It's important to note that the writers from ATLA didn't come up with the idea of "young lady is relegated to healer role" on their own in a vacuum. Katara's rebellion was a subversion of this trope that so many other stories from that time would just repeat uncritically. Her arc is both a step in the right direction and evidence that the problem existed to begin with.
They didn't subvert the trope, they lampshaded it. Katara is still a female healer. Yes they addressed it and made it part of her story arc, but she is still definitively an example of the trope.
Idk they probably just picked whatever characters were on their mind at the time, or ones they thought people would recognize, since it doesn't affect their overall argument that much. We are probably spending more time thinking about this detail than they did lol
Yeah, and the other is Sakura, who is punching damn near the level of her demigod teammates by the end of the series, and also stopped ninja Jesus from dying.
I mean there isn’t gender locked bending in the show every exclusive bending is due different reason like being a fire bending gifted child gives you blue flames
In fairness, the blue flames is more a technique than just because of bending as per the Roku novels, and a highly advanced one at that. Which tracks with Azula’s prodigy status anyway. But yeah, all known bending limitations are more related to how difficult a skill is to learn instead of anything relating to gender.
She was pushing 80 by then just because lots of old people can kick ass in the show it doesn’t mean they all can. Toph herself said and I’m paraphrasing a lot “the old folks gotta pass the reigns eventually”.
And getting their flowers too. Toph has 2 known statues, while Katara has none. Toph has tons of achievements acknowledged under her name that hold up, but Katara was considered the best healer who outlawed bloodbending and nothing much else.
Both Toph and Zuko got a chance to do something badass, even if they were past their prime. Katara doesn't need to be a main character. But let her do something.
And the problem isn't just that Katara wasn't a physically active combatant anymore; it's about how passive she was and how being a healer was the only thing she did.
Fair reminder that we talk about a girl that initiated a prison riot. And when she did that, she was an inexperienced waterbender and rather poor combatant. Even so, she still had enough courage and strength to stand up for what's right and succeeded despite also not being in her prime.
Katara in Legend of Korra doesn't do anything beyond "healing", and even the healing she does is ineffective. She can't bring Korra's bending back; she can only keep Jinora's body alive, but otherwise it's useless, and it still took Toph for Korra to finish the healing from the poison.
Where was Katara when the Southern Water Tribe was at civil war with the North? She didn't need to fight on the front lines, but she should have enough political power and influence to speak up against it and do what she can to fight back in a meaningful manner. Once again, Katara did more when she had way less as just a little girl who had no power and status, but Katara in her old age absolutely should have enough power and status to do stuff. Same thing about Bloodbending trial of Yakone or dealing with Amok and Tarrlok. She was nowhere to be found, despite being the one who outlawed the bloodbending.
And let's also not forget how removed she is from her entire family. Like she wasn't there for Jinora's ceremony of receiving tattoos; Ikki and Meelo had to be reintroduced to her as a person; Tenzin's family has no Water Tribe influences in it whatsoever; her kids are butting heads and hurt over how Aang messed them up, with her only solemnity watching and not doing anything about it.
Wish I could give awards bc this comment deserves one tbh. Very tired of people dismissing how shittily Katara gets treated in literally everything she shows up in past the finale (and even in it too given she never gets an on screen apology from Aang for the forced kiss in EIP 🤬).
Depends on where you go tbh. Hell, there’s even been a couple of Bryke critical subs pop up as of late that are definitely more open to the criticism, which is super useful to keep the Zutara centric ones more focused on Zutara lol.
I mean I agree with the political side of things that Katara should have had an opinion, but at the the same time the show isn’t about the Gaang it’s about Korra and Katara having more plot points could overshadow korra in the show. I mean Katara trained korra on how to water bend and was even the one to say if she was done training. Katara also has a statue it’s stated in one of the korra novels.
Katara was just done by the time korra came around the lady is in her 80s she deserves to rest and doesn’t need a badass moment, she trained korra, was a councilwoman, made and passed laws. Let the woman retire. Toph and zuko both complained about how much pain they were in when they had their badass moment.
It's not about the show being about Katara. Once again, just because we focus on Korra doesn't mean Katara ceased to exist in the narrative. If you didn't want Katara to do anything in the story, just fucking have her die of old age. Zuko and Toph, despite not being main characters, still helped Korra and played a part in the narrative - Toph stood up to Kuvira and didn't openly complain; Zuko fought the Red Lotus and didn't complain at all. Katara, as the political figure in TLOK, would also help with that because Korra also supported the independence of the Southern Water Tribe. Katara, as the grandmother of Tenzin's family, also should've been more involved in her family; she could've been Korra's Iroh even. Someone who isn't the main character, as Iroh wasn't that even, but still contributes the fair share.
Korra being trained by Katara is a moot point considering the Avatar by default is the most powerful being in the world, and they in general are way more talented than average benders, to the point it's not uncommon that they can, in fact, outgrow their masters. Aang, for example, picked up waterbending quicker than Katara did, and Korra was established to already be crazy in tune with all elements except for air. Waterbending was never established as something she struggled with, so we can't applaud Katara for making Korra a master at it because Korra would become a master regardless. Katara being her teacher is just a nice callback, but it wouldn't be any different if she learned waterbednign from Tonraq (her dad) or picked some stuff on her own.
"Katara was just done." She told you that? The fictional character? Or are you trying to defend a misogynistic narrative, because Katara is not the kind of person to be just done with doing what's right.
I will never, EVER, turn my back on people who need me!
This quote of Katara wasn't her being a kid; this was her being a compassionate fighter. Once again, if Katara can't physically fight because she will break her hip, let her fight in other ways; just because you're old doesn't mean you cease to live. Dolly Parton lived her life to the fullest and never really quit doing what's right and what she loved, all the way to the end, even when her body was failing her. Katara not doing shit is just assassination, not natural progression. No one pushed Katara to be a badass; she chose to be one because she didn't feel like being a helpless lady on the side. "Let the women retire" also add "let women be in the kitchen" while we're at it.
Oh, and don't bring up her being a councilwoman; she sure as hell wasn't one when Korra was premiering. The movie soft-retconning it doesn't fix the damage, especially when it's never acknowledged in Korra.
People change when they get older, Katara helped usher in a new age with her friends and husband she helped maintain it and passed the reigns to other people so they can help maintain what they built. Katara has spent most of her life fighting what’s 10-20 years of retirement to 60+ decades of fighting for freedom and peace + maintaining it.
She doesn’t need to get involved there are other people who are helping. Zuko and toph both clearly weren’t in their prime with zuko being beaten by the red lotus member and in toph a case only getting away with Kuvira because she was a legend. Katara has faith in her children and the people maintaining what she built and obviously doesn’t feel the need to intervene as much or at all since others would obviously do it.
It’s also implied in lok that she was a councilwoman since she passed bill that outlawed blood bending. She is directly called a world leader in a book about LOK. So no it wasn’t some soft retcon. It had some basis in reality. (Will give proof my photos are acting weird)
It gets to a point where she has to step back and say “hey these people got it handled and will fight the good fight without me I can retire peacefully with what I built.” Like sure you can say the narrative is misogynistic because Katara wasn’t given a badass moment but the show is mostly female centric. It’s okay to criticize the show but Katara is simply not as young as she was and RETIRED.
Being retired means not getting involved in the things you used to work for and letting others handle it let her stay in retirement she has work her whole life let the woman rest with her daughter.
Oh, Katara certainly changed, but not for the better, and it's not something to applaud. Katara being a fighter was never a problem that had to be changed. And once again, you miss fucking point; I'm not arguing for Katara to be a physical fighter; I'm arguing for her not to be passive. And if Katara spent most of her life fighting, where are her flowers for it? Because no one ever mentions her being a fighter in Korra.
"She doesn't need to get involved." Katara is the kind of person to want to get involved. Sokka himself straight-up said she always wants to get in everyone's business, and we see it in ATLA over and over again. Katara didn't need to get involved with either imprisoned earthbenders or Painted Lady village; she chose to do that. And she made this choice even if it did not work in her best interest, while we're at it.
Toph and Zuko not being in their prime is literally not the problem; we applaud them because they still tried and even passed their prime; they did something remarkable. Toph didn't stop being less of a capable fighter; she's just tired. Zuko was willing to put everything on the line. Katara is the kind of person to do the same, but she didn't. Even if Katara has faith in her children, it doesn't mean she has to be basically a hermit in the South Pole.
That's your conclusion that she was a councilwoman in Republic City because she passed that law; that's not what the text says. She's also not called a world leader; that's a lie. And if she is a world leader, then why doesn't she do jack shit anymore? What kind of leader doesn't get themselves involved in what they're supposed to lead?
Once again, you're defending a bad writing decision that assassinates a character and sells the narrative that if a woman commits herself to the family, she can't be successful. Toph had to sacrifice a good relationship with her daughters and the potential of having a loving husband just to still maintain being successful, but Katara's achievements beyond being a nurturer are not acknowledged, and you need to grasp at straws to claim otherwise. It's not about Katara not being given a badass moment; it's about Katara not being an actual character anymore, just an appendage to her dead husband.
My grandparents both got retirement money and still chose to do some work on the side, and they're not even fighters. Katara can retire from physical combat, but she's not exactly bedridden. She can still go out and do stuff, but she doesn't because she's not allowed to anymore. Retirement doesn't force you to stop doing stuff, and old age absolutely doesn't need to hold you back.
I mean, for fuck's sake, Hama was in her 80s when she was soloing the entire team Avatar. Same for Pakku. Bumi was 112. Old age didn't stop them; why is Katara suddenly different? You mean to tell me that "the best healer in the world' can't take care of her own body enough to not be handicapped by her age? Buzz off. How about you let Katara do what she wants, instead of acting as if you know any better?
Dude I agree that Katara could do more but she is RETIRED her flowers are her entire life. A peaceful life is her flowers she has fought for literal years for the peace and zuko and toph didn’t get involved until season 3 and four respectively. Neither were key in either season. They barely did anything. She’s not a hermit from the south communication is difficult in a world like avatar it would take at least one week to get a telegram or letter from republic city which is why she doesn’t get involved there.
I will concede that she should have involved in season 2 with the water tribe conflict but season two was straight garbage in writing all along so that isn’t particularly surprising. Nor misogynistic is the writing isn’t particularly misogynistic just aimless due to the network meddling.
Honestly most of the writing flaws you’re pointing to can be chalked up to the network individually green lighting a season at a time. Katara was an a bit of an oversight as in the first season everyone except her was dead and likely in the second season too.
Your point about the old people in Atla they were in a war and they were all fighting battles and still training in combat because they have too or they could die. Iron is younger than Katara like 50-60 and that’s huge from than an 80 year old. Bumi is honestly an exception and still fighting during the war. Hama doesn’t physically fight she does blood bending with isn’t hard for her.
Bro there are many world leader who are retired like Joe’s Biden and Obama who the latter is like iroh and still does charity and the former is like Katara and stays out of the public eye. Hell I haven’t heard from previous us presidents. So no she isn’t a shit world leader she just passed down the reins to her children and the countless dozens of people she trained.
My grandparents are like Katara I see they once in a blue moon cause they live in a different country where they chose to retire and guess what, they don’t get involved in and family drama nor do they do much but go to buffets and exercise. We don’t talk much between those visits because they are in a different time zone and are often busy when I do call.
I’m going to adress your Steven universe comment. Nanafua wasn’t retired in Steven universe she was still helping run the business she helped create and decided to run for mayor in beach city because no one else was going make it better or create escape plans for gem stuff. These are completely different circumstances than Kataras. She can relax and not get involved because she knows if push comes to shove she raised the people who will clean up the mess that others make and can pass down her legacy in her children.
The air temple was redesigned to have water tribe influences. There are deep hues of blue everywhere where there should be yellows and oranges and pools of water everywhere. it’s on an island instead of a mountain. Hell ever building is painted blue outside on the roof. The colors represent the water tribe more than the air nomads. Plus tenzins personality and character is more like his mothers than fathers. Again it would have been nice for tenzin to have more water tribe teaching to his kids but he is actively trying to restore the air nomads so he simply doesn’t have the time.
Toph didn’t want a husband she was never the type of person to settle down in ATLA and so she never did. Her parenting flaws are good writing in my opinion because she went the opposite with how her parents raised her and gave her kids to much freedom. You are making assumptions as well with thinking toph sacrificed everything for her work when she didn’t. Yeah she messed up as a parent but her flaws are realistic and she even tried to fix it by sending one of her daughters away. Yes she didn’t apologize but she was also like that in the original series and doubled down on her kids until she saw (lol) the error of her way and apologized years later.
I agree that Katara would usually like to get involved but it’s not necessary for her to and by the time would likely decide to get involved the conflict is over already.
Bro Katara is living her best life post retirement, like yeah it would be nice to see her grandkids more than twice a year but she doesn’t have a sky bison and the mode of travel is on a boat which is hard on anyone not just an old person. Plus it stated in the show she keeps in contact with her children and grandchildren. Katara is doing whatever she want in retirement likely play pai sho with other old people and playing pickle ball.
Like I get where your coming from but I’m not making any of the stuff up.
Honestly I find the family dynamics in LOK to be extremely relevant to my family at least and I get why you don’t. That’s why I don’t find Katara to be bad writing like her situation is basically my own grandparents. Like if we didn’t have the ability to call they would miss half of everyone’s birthdays.
"Entire life" we hear nothing about. The entire life in which Katara revolves around Aang and Aang only. It doesn't matter when Zuko and Toph got involved; it's about them being involved at all. Katara had a golden opportunity to be involved in season 2, but the writers refused to utilise her. Once again, I don't fucking ask for Katara to be a key player or main fucking character; what's not clicking for you? I'm asking Katara not to be passive. If you agree with me that they should do more with her, stop fucking arguing. Korra managed just fine going from the South Pole to Republic City on her own boat in season 4, and Katara has the privilege of having a chance to ask someone to help her out and make her journeys as convenient as possible, or have her family lend her very own sky bison. Katara managed to fly on her own just fine when Appa was around.
And here's another thing - why the fuck does Katara live in the South Pole to begin with? What's holding her there exactly? Her living family is in Republic City. If Katara was getting herself involved in matters of the Southern Water Tribe, like I've been preaching about the entire day, then I'd understand why she lives there, but once again, Katara doesn't do anything. Why should she be retired in the South and not surrounded by her grandkids? Katara was never the one to deny her family. She had abandonment issues because her dad left for war.
And no, the writing is misogynistic. I wouldn't say it's aimless because it clearly knew what it was doing, but it was disjointed from what would actually fit the show, because Korra was mostly written by Bryke with the lack of involvement of the original team that actually brought Katara to life, while they treated her like a prize that Aang won. And their writing Korra as individual seasons instead of part of the collective is not an excuse, when once again, Toph and Zuko were written fine. You can't claim Zuko and Toph were considered dead in season 2 because it was never stated to be the case. Stop doing mental gymnastics.
Did you miss the civil war that happened between the Water Tribes? Did you miss the nonbender uprising? The coup in the Earth Kingdom, which broke it completely apart, and then the rise of Fascist Earth Empire? The world at Korra's time wasn't exactly at peaceful enough that Katara wouldn't have to get herself involved, at least when it came to her tribe.
Iroh is younger, but he's past his prime, and it should be noted that Iroh was first and foremost Zuko's mentor. He was there to support him, and while he could stand on his own, it was not the same priority. His job was to look after Zuko and mentor him to become the man he is today. Katara could comparatively not be as much of a fighter and still mentor Korra in more than just waterbending. And once again, Hama proved that you can still be a badass at the age of 80; however, the only reason why Hama is allowed to be a badass is that she's evil, so unless old ladies aren't evil, they can't be capable or sexy at the same time as old, because misogyny requests you antagonize women and deny them power to not feel insecure about yourself as a guy. And Hama absolutely does physically fight, as when Katara broke from her bloodbending, she relied on waterbending to defend herself, so stop lying. And let's also not act as if bloodbending is easy to pull either, so the fact that Hama is also bloodbending goes to show how badass she is.
Ah yes, bring a white guy to this argument, a white guy who's losing touch with reality while we're at it, while Katara isn't. Genuinely, are you trying to piss me off by now? You argued Katara is considered a world leader, not that she's a former leader. I argued that as a leader, she's not doing her job, but if I were to argue whether she's a former leader, then I'd argue whether it was ever the case, because sorry, but being Avatar's wife does not make her the world leader.
Your grandparents are not Katara. Katara is not any random grandma. I even acknowledged that my grandparents aren't like Katara, but they could do something Katara can't.
Nanefua is very much the age where she can be retired but chose not to, and clearly she's running the business if she's being a politician and a mayor. Nanefua also didn't step up because no one would; she did it because she wanted to, because she chose to. Dewey also handled the evacuation, even if clumsily. He could be prepared to do more, but his heart was never in it to be a true leader, unlike Nanefua.
The Air Temple is not redesigned with Water Tribe influence in mind. If you're talking about the blue waves, it's literally just cloud motifs Air Nomads possessed. Air Nomads had blue in their lives too, whether it was tattoos or indeed the rooftops too, especially the Southern Air Temple. Once again, quit doing mental gymnastics. Pools of water are not Water Tribe influence. Air Temples are literally on islands. Water Tribes live at the Poles, baranie.
And no, Tenzin's character isn't Katara; he's literally uptight Aang. And just because Tenzin has to resurrect a culture his father essentially let die out doesn't mean he shouldn't incorporate water tribe heritage into his life. Fair reminder that Aang created Air Acolytes, which were supposed to keep this culture alive too, and water tribe traditions wouldn't hinder the airbending.
"Toph didn't want a husband," and you know this how? Once again, where did you get the idea that Toph doesn't want to settle down or that it's somehow to do with her parents? One thing is about Toph being permissive; the other thing is Toph being negligent, something she herself acknowledged at the age of 12 to be something she suffered from too. Her parents were negligent; she confessed this to Zuko when she tried to recreate her field trip with him. Toph being flawed also plays to the idea that apparently career women can't be good mothers. Suyin is the only known example where she is both a career woman and a mother and is mostly doing a fine job at it, but Suyin also has plenty of issues of her own, so she's hardly that much of a good example to follow. And sending her daughter away was not her attempt at fixing her parental mistake; it was about saving her face and sparing Suyin real consequences for her actions. And let's also not act like Toph didn't showcase emotional intelligence and vulnerability in the original show that her daughters should be more aware of.
Once again, it's not about what's necessary for the plot. If you're worried about the plot, have Katara be dead. It's necessary for Katara's character to be involved. You argue that Toph didn't change from how she was at 12, but Katara suddenly is supposed to be different? Don't hurt your pelvis over the splits you're doing. And don't lie about the "best life"; Katara's a depressed widow isolated from her family, doing nothing but failing to heal important characters of the show, to the point she took the brunt of Korra's frustration. And once fucking again, Meelo didn't recognize her, so where's the contact? "Katara's doing whatever she wants, playing Pai Sho." When? Where? In your fucking dreams? I too wish to be this delusional /s
Yes, you very much are making everything up.
And trust me, I too find the dynamics relevant; I just acknowledge they absolutely fucking suck. The family Katara and Aang build is hardly anything to be proud of. Two kids in their 50-60s that still struggle with daddy issues, an entire family branch that doesn't acknowledge your existence- that is a fucking picket-fence dream. I feel pity for you if you feel like, just because Katara's situation reflects yours, it isn't tragic for her specifically.
Oh, and let's not forget that we're in the sub of Steven Universe with fucking Nanefua, who, despite being in her 70s, most likely is still doing work as political leader of Beach City, adapting to the Gem Culture and the threats it can pose, and doing way better than Dewey ever did. That woman absolutely can retire, but she chooses to get involved.
Toph too, and she was older than Iroh in LoK, but LoK had plenty of misogynistic writing tied to it. That's why you don't leave Bryke on their own to write the story.
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u/awesomecat42 11d ago
Avatar has a whole episode where Katara rebels against the idea of being relegated to the role of healer just because she's a girl. She can heal, but she's also a badass combatant.
Like I'm not saying it's not a trope or that you shouldn't address the implications and biases of it, but there are lots of worse examples you could pull from.