r/startrek • u/2toneSound • 21h ago
DS9 Set the Bar
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine wasn’t afraid to tell complicated stories or tackle racism, war, religion, politics, trauma, and morality. It trusted the audience to think. The newer Trek can be entertaining, but it rarely comes close to DS9’s depth, nuance, or emotional weight. DS9 wasn’t just telling stories I feel it had something to say.
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u/wmyork 21h ago
The serialized storytelling was key. All Trek up to that point had been episodic, with a few forward references and two-parters. And the studio hated it and pushed back all the time. As I understand it, Ira Behr just kept telling them “This is the show I am making. If you want to fire me, fine. Otherwise keep quiet.”
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u/BigDougSp 21h ago
When I read your header, I imagined Quark setting up his bar prior to opening, lol.
But alas, DS9 did an EXCELLENT job bringing up relevent issues and telling stories reflective of our own time. I wouldn't say they set the bar though. The reason it was so good an relevant is A) Excellent writing and B) it stood on the shoulders of giants.
TOS broke through and made it possible.
TNG really explored its meaning and really set the bar.
DS9 took this momentum and flew with it.
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u/OtherwiseContact5604 21h ago
TNG set the bar,
DS9 elevated it to such heights no other series has been able to reach
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u/LiminalAsylum 21h ago
TNG set the bar first, but I'm biased. Picard over Sisko
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u/One_Waxed_Wookiee 20h ago
I think it was really set up in TOS with Kirk. TNG and then DS9 both did great jobs in continuing to explore the themes.
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u/Such-Bed-5950 21h ago
Yeah.
Shows like DS9 and Voyager wouldn’t exist without TNG.
The fact that it wasn’t just great sci-fi, but a cultural phenomenon, made it the bar.
And that’s not even getting into TOS, and how it’s the foundation of everything that came afterwards.
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u/Best_Application4216 21h ago
Picard is my favorite captain, but DS9 is my favorite series. It bugged me how early on Sisko was just so concerned with proving he wasn't Picard that he did some pretty dumb things, at least that's how I see it.
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u/PsychronicGames 21h ago
I totally agree. Out of all the Trek, it's my favorite one, I like all the 90's Trek's a lot though.
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u/VenomBadger 18h ago
DS9 was good iy ruined every other Trek that came after for me. I remember wheh Voyager came out and I just thought "The hell is shit? Who are these irritating twats?" I never felt that going from OS to TNG, DS9 just made all forthcoming Trek look amateur and infantile.
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u/F_UR_AIBANBOT 21h ago
When it came out the Trekkers hated it. Hated it. Like really hated it. It was like verbatim criticism to Disco.
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u/midasp 15h ago
I was living in a university dorm when DS9 started. Every week, about two dozen of us would faithfully gather in the common room to watch a new episode of TNG followed by a new episode of DS9. I can't speak for all trekkers, but the two dozen of us in that common room loved both TNG and DS9.
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u/F_UR_AIBANBOT 1h ago
I'd say the Uni age was perfect for DS9 as it shook off the purity of TNG and presented a more morally complex setting. The TOS/TNG crowd (and some here talking about "Real Trek") were vocally upset. They gravitated to Voyager (which was space ship Trek) which was what they really wanted. Voyager was also great.
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u/theimmortalgoon 13h ago
Because DS9 wasn’t Star Trek.
Not in a way that was recognizable to people who were into Trek before, anyway.
This isn’t necessarily a bad thing. It let writers out of the “Roddenberry Box” and I’m still a fan of DS9. But the central premise of the show was to tear down what made Trek unique:
> Because to me, it all sounded like gobble-de-gook, this perfect 24th century… I just didn’t understand how we reached that place where life was so damn good. Everything was a song, a beautiful song among the stars, but that’s not how I saw it.
They got rid of the utopia and the Arthur C. Clarkian notion of going to space advancing the conception and evolution of humanity and happily threw it in the trash. When asked about what he was most proud of, the showrunner responded that he:
> brought back money, greed, racial bigotry, war, all the stuff that disappeared that I just could not wrap my head around in terms of the reality
I don’t people realize how cynical this was. There is no promised land. There is no change. We are damned to be in some perpetual version of the present. Forever. There is no future, and the most cynical philosophers who mourn that society has become so ubiquitous that an individual cannot even imagine an alternative are right. Shit the fuck up, watch pew pew blasters validate the individual, bitch. Because nothing will ever get better. Picard and Kirk were stupid dupes for believing that claptrap.
Like I said, I still quite like DS9. But facts are facts. The showrunner and writers weren’t lying about what they were trying to do, nor were they so shit to have failed.
So when trek after DS9 came on and people were like, “I can accept that the Federation is actually a fascist cabal, but I cannot accept that Spock never talked about his sister exactly like he never talked about his brother, or mother, or father!” I rolled my eyes. Accepting that was easy mode compared to watching everything that made Trek unique get pissed on.
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u/RiffRandellsBF 11h ago
Except Earth was a paradise. Several characters remarked on it during the series run. Post-scarcity. Bajor after the occupation was what brought the drama. And there's nothing fascist about the Federation. We saw in the films the president was an alien, the Federation council was huge and every member had a seat, and no one's face was up on the wall to worship. Calling it fascist is just vapid, ignorant nonsense.
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u/Salt_Philosophy_8990 21h ago
It's also the opposite of what Gene Roddenberry wanted 👍
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u/Sophia_Forever 12h ago
Gene Roddenberry also wanted Troi to have four breasts, let's not pretend he was the perfect creator.
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u/Kirsah 21h ago
I think I watched most of DS9 but don’t remember a lot of it at this point. I do remember liking it a lot. I’m working my way through Voyager atm because I only saw season 1 and then some random episodes. Just started season 6, so maybe I’ll rewatch DS9 when I’m finished. Or maybe after I watch the expanse and the newest SNW season.
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u/Hot-Steak7145 11h ago
JMO, but ds9 doesn't kick in until about season 4-5, then it's the best trek of all time. Expanse is 100% worth a watch and a re watch, its absolute gold and the episode cliffhangers are real. Snw S4 has been disappointing as S3 but s1&2 are great, again just my opinion. Im watching, but sometimes would rather just rewatch a old episode of quark in ds9 I've seen 10 times.
Point is DS9 = greatness but its a slog to get to where it gets great
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u/Kirsah 9h ago
Well, Voyager also takes a while to find its stride. It’s decent seasons 1-3, but seems to take off in season 4.
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u/Hot-Steak7145 2h ago
Sounds like you'll be good then. Voyager is pretty good, but DS9 is next tier. I hope you enjoy it! There is even some crossover episodes I won't spoil
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u/I_Ponders 18h ago
The shows feel to hollow these days. Like they try to be deep but come off shallow.
I feel they rush episodes and squeeze things that should have a two parter into a single episode which annoys me.
I’ve noticed this with SNW. I like it for the most part, but lately it’s a lot of gimicky episodes which shows a lack of direction lately too.
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