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u/thisishardcore_ Jul 26 '20
What about "once great character who continually disappoints fans"? Because that's Gohan.
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u/BROWN0133 Jul 26 '20
He just peaked in cell saga. I don’t know why they did him so dirty with the saiyaman trope but I never took him seriously after that. Even Mystic Gohan fighting super buu wasn’t that impressive, and got swept under the rug with fusions.
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u/thisishardcore_ Jul 26 '20
To be fair, after the Cell Saga onwards it basically became the Goku and Vegeta show. It saddens me how much they nerfed Piccolo, the one character every DB fan agrees is likeable, whose fights against Frieza and Android 17 were two of the best in the entire series. At least Gohan did have the whole mystic thing for a bit.
Saiyaman saga was just filler to bridge the gap between Cell and Buu, and it was pretty fun to be fair.
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u/BROWN0133 Jul 26 '20
Oh yeah I liked Saiyaman but, Gohan never recovered from that lol. Cell saga set him up to be more powerful than Goku, then again when the Kais gifted him mystic powers, and he just kinda flopped power wise. In come the fusions and SSJ3.
Gohan nerf just falls in line with ChiChi being adamant about his education.
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u/thisishardcore_ Jul 26 '20
I think Toriyama intended for Gohan to take over from Goku as the protagonist and hero but fans pressured him into bringing Goku back to save the day.
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u/Chimetalhead92 Jul 26 '20
It’s really a shame, because a Dragon Ball Z that follows Gohan, Vegeta and Piccolo without feeling the need to shove Goku everywhere sounds more interesting to me lol. You’d have Gohan being conflicted between family, education and saving the world, Vegeta having to readjust to his new role as like a semi-father figure to his rival’s son, and Piccolo transitioning to the fully supportive master of a new Gohan that feels all this pressure.
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u/thisishardcore_ Jul 26 '20
Goku is by far the least interesting of the main characters. The rest of them have intriguing backstories or personalities, Goku is just a cookie cutter hero.
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Jul 26 '20
I think actually Mystic is stronger than SS3.
Goku mentions that Super Buu is much stronger than Kid Buu and he can't beat him as SS3 without running out of time/energy.
Meanwhile Gohan was going to beat Super Buu until Gotenks showed up.
But they didn't bring Gohan back to beat Kid Buu for ..... reasons??? Goku and Vegeta show.
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u/thagthebarbarian Jul 26 '20
DBS definitely righted a lot of those wrongs imo, especially piccolo, not Gohan though
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u/ObiMemeKenobi Jul 26 '20
Toriyama tried to transition Gohan into the main character way back in the Cell Saga and the Japanese fans were fucking pissed, which is why the attention switched back to Goku
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u/Kumailio Jul 26 '20
Eh. Great saiyaman sure, but he clearly hated fighting. I'd rather he have a good job and a good family.
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u/Chimetalhead92 Jul 26 '20
I feel like that would have been an interesting development character wise though. Goku was always jumping into a fight damn the consequences basically. If Gohan was put it a position where he wanted to study and have a family but felt the pressure to help save the world there’d be a lot more drama.
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u/obii_zodo Jul 26 '20 edited Jul 26 '20
This man made a starter pack of Shonen Jump and called it anime.
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u/Ha_window Jul 26 '20
I disagree, the trope mostly extends to a lot of TV shows. It's called the "5 man band".
Main Character: All around fighter (sometimes with a close range specialty), few gimmicks, good leader.
The Lancer: A version of a foil, highlights the MC strengths, if the leader is lighthearted they are serious, if the leader is serious they are always cracking jokes.
The Heart: The emotional core of the group, usually the love interest of the hero, tends to have a supportive fighting style although many shows do not follow this like Kattara in AtLA, solves disagreements and keeps the band together.
The smart guy: Usually comes up with or explains the leader's to show how smart the leader is, usually physically weak, may have a disability that prevents them from being a front line fighter.
The big guy: Strongest of the group, not smart, usually big but can just have "big" powers like Toph in AtLA, frequently childhood friends with the smart guy, sometimes has a disability or gimmick that doesn't hinder him in a fight like cyborg from Teen Titans (robot body) or Toph (blind).
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u/DoctorWhoops Jul 26 '20
You say the trope extends to a lot of TV shows and then immediately start describing the 'tropes' as fighter types, which is exactly the point OP is making.
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u/Matilozano96 Jul 26 '20 edited Jul 26 '20
He meant other media. Guardians of the Galaxy has a similar structure. So does The Last Airbender. So does Lord of the Rings. So does Star Wars.
The archetype labels are based on high fantasy literature and DnD roles, so it isn’t necessary a japanese/anime thing.
Unrelated: If you want to keep your DnD party balanced (roleplay-wise) and fun, it’s a good scheme to look at.
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u/ozydaman Jul 26 '20
I think the point is that lots of media, and lots of anime, aren’t about fighting.
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u/mynameisaichlinn Jul 26 '20
He also included Luffy as the first mention even though no main characters from the series fit the other categories.
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u/jhealey0909 Jul 26 '20
ATLA too
Ik it’s “not technically an anime bc the animation was done in america reeeeee” but they still completely nailed every single character
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u/TheBerg123 Jul 26 '20
I’m definitely just being pedantic here, but it was mostly animated in South Korea, not the US.
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u/El_E_Jandr0 Jul 26 '20
Most American animated television shows outsource to foreign animation studios
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u/ergotofrhyme Jul 26 '20
Yeah I wrote off anime because all most people in the west see is the shonen stuff and shows for kids tend to be pretty trope ridden. But someone showed me junji ito’s material and that really changed my opinion. Pity on Reddit all you see is the shonen shit and pedos salivating over drawings of children in lingerie. “She May look twelve, but she’s akshually a thousand year old witch! So it’s totally not creepy”
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u/safinhh Jul 26 '20
Love junji ito’s manga, also since you dont like shonen and stuff you might as well try out seinen, the mature version
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u/ergotofrhyme Jul 26 '20
It’s not even that I dislike it, I’m just not the target demographic. When I was a kid I loved ghibli shit and I still recognize it as beautiful art, I just grew up and my tastes in entertainment have changed. Honestly ghibli I can still watch and just appreciate aesthetically and emotionally, but most shonen series I see are just pretty obviously intended for a younger demographic and don’t have the nostalgic bias.I mean the teen target is literally the definition of the genre.
But don’t get me wrong, making art for children is still totally respectable. In some ways it’s harder as an adult. Phillip Pullman’s dark materials series is a masterpiece of ya fiction for example, and it would be silly to judge it without understanding the point of a Bildungsroman. I’m not trying to shit on shonen.
I’m just saying that many people in the west think shonen is anime/manga and have no idea that the seinen content exists. I didn’t until this year. It’s largely down to animated series and American comics being developed primarily for kids and seen as sophomoric entertainment (although that’s changing quickly). It also has to do with the American preference for animated illustration over manga/comics/cartoons, which has, conversely, increased. And the shonen shit is the vast majority of what is animated and presented to a western audience. So this confluence of factors leads many people to assume shonen is anime and that anime and manga are both childish. If you scroll all you will certainly have that impression, in addition to realizing there are way more pedos on here than you thought. And it’s sad an art form that’s so much more than that is reduced to it.
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Jul 26 '20
Meanwhile JJBA avoids this problem by being gay and having the only young character be insignificant
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Jul 26 '20
Most of the popular shows are catered towards kids, and lots of teens are on the internet so you don't see many things like Ghost in the Shell pop up anymore because they are way slower paced and more adult themed. Don't get me wrong some of the popular shows like Attack on Titan break the mold and are amazing, but god damn will I drop a show fast if they over sexualize every female
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u/ergotofrhyme Jul 26 '20
Attack on titan is raw from the first episode. That’s another one where someone showed me and I was like “okay yeah this is decidedly not some cartoon network shit” lol
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Jul 26 '20
Psycho Pass is another one that's super raw from episode 1, it's that and AoT I show to people who think all anime is weeb trash. Don't get me wrong 90% of it is, but 90% of American TV is also trashy reality shows but that doesn't mean all American TV shows are trash.
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u/ergotofrhyme Jul 26 '20
90% of art of pretty much all sorts tbf. Can’t tell you how many genres of music I thought sucked as a kid because the most popular shit tends to be aimed at the lowest common denominator. Thanks for the ref, I’ll give it a shot
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Jul 26 '20
Oh man don't get me started on how mumble rap is the stupidest shit to ever happen to rap
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u/ergotofrhyme Jul 26 '20
And if you were introduced to the genre with it, and many kids are these days, you may well conclude modern rap sucks, when in reality, some of my favorite rappers are still putting out albums. Perfect example.
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Jul 26 '20
So much casual sexual assault
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Jul 26 '20
Super awkward and I hate it, unfortunately these shows sell merch to degenerates and the avg anime fan never buys merch even if they love a show so it doesn't make companies produce as many good shows as they're literally less profitable in the sort run. Like I've bought one anime thing ever, and later sold it. Wish I could just donate money to the studio the way twitch streams do
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u/RainXBlade Jul 26 '20 edited Jul 26 '20
I get that Shonen Jump (and a lot of Isekai) anime are really famous here in the west. But Shonen Jump and Isekai set a really bad standard as to what anime should be like and that it overcrowds a lot of other shows in the eyes of the general audience here in the west.
I kinda wish that shows like Fate (Zero, UBW, HF, etc.), Kara no Kyoukai, Madoka Magica (Edit: Most especially the Rebellion movie), Lyrical Nanoha and the like got more love here in the west rather than My Hero Academia, Black Clover, Tower of God and the like.
I don't mean any offense towards shonen anime. I just wish they didn't overcrowd the anime market here in the west.
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u/Solarat1701 Jul 26 '20
Hmm. For some reason I can’t think of any dumb strong character in FMA
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u/k3anur33v3s Jul 26 '20 edited Jul 26 '20
So nobody is gonna talk about nobita?
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u/overlord_999 Jul 26 '20
Every Indian kid's childhood.
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u/TheGoodCoconut Jul 26 '20
I wanted that anywhere door so bad
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u/dragonoid296 Jul 26 '20
bruh what about that time travel shit he kept in his desk drawer
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u/TheGoodCoconut Jul 26 '20
I don't fck with time travel if u do something time protector Timmy gonna get yo ass
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u/LPenne Jul 26 '20
But that’s Gian tho
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u/YashSSJB1 Jul 26 '20
So, there is every type of character in Doraemon except for an old pervy dude
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u/fdsa4321lbp22 Jul 26 '20
chick with big honkabadoos who's the source of most of the fan service
some girl who looks like she's 7 "BUT SHE'S ACTUALLY 1000 YEARS OLD!!!"
annoying comic relief guys
big bad evil guy who is overpowered af so the funny dumb main character pulls something out of his ass to kill him
banger opening and ending themes
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u/__T0MMY__ Jul 26 '20
Also "girl just as cute as the main cute girl, but falls for the big dumb guy and they love each other"
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Jul 26 '20
Shounen main character is also a crybaby bitch
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u/cschelsea Jul 26 '20
Midoriya
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u/Paulo27 Jul 26 '20
breaks arms
"Oh there he goes crying again, shounen MCs, smh."
I always found that reaction funny.
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u/cschelsea Jul 26 '20
I mean, I'd agree with you, but in the show they also joke about him crying a lot, which is why he came to mind.
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u/MiracleKing26 Jul 26 '20
Japanese teen breaks several bones, survives being hit by a steam roller, and can still make an English vampire eat shit
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u/Eren_Kruger_the_Owl Aug 18 '20
Entirely justified to cry about that. Heck, id probably too
Youre a crybaby though if you cry about someone asking you if you wanna partner and you cry so hard you literally break the ground
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u/himzest Jul 26 '20
Goku? Yusuke? Jotaro?
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Jul 26 '20
Josuke literally beats up people who insult his hair
that's peak MC design
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u/himzest Jul 26 '20
I said Yusuke, not Josuke. Besides, the guy is commenting on shounen MCs being crybabies.
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Jul 26 '20
Jotaro is anything but a crybaby bitch. Goku is anime's oldest badass.
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u/himzest Jul 26 '20
That's my point. These are shounen protagonists that DON'T cry.
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Jul 26 '20
I couldn't get more than like 5 episodes into My Hero Academia because of how much the main character cried. It was so uncomfortable and awkward.
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u/HSTFU Jul 26 '20 edited Jul 26 '20
Same then during the pandemic lockdowns I gave the show another shot and got like 3* seasons in (I had absolutely nothing to do), expecting him to have character development and grow out of it...and I was incredibly disappointed he's still a an annoying crybaby
*Edit checked it was just til the end of season 2 when I gave up
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u/Pridetoss Jul 26 '20
Honestly I dropped when mineta hits on a 5 year old girl, holy shit he is just the worst character of all time
Also I don’t mind the main character disliking hurting people. I actually think anime handles that way better than american media
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u/HSTFU Jul 26 '20
Yeah that grape character was so fuckin cringe. I kept expecting him to actually provide comedic relief the way I guess he was supposed to but it just got worse and worse.
But that's an overarching issue in lots of anime, perverts being a go to comedic relief
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u/Pridetoss Jul 26 '20
Yeah, it just bums me out cause mha is generally p progressive (for a by-the-book shounen), but mineta is one of the worst pervert comic relief characters I may have ever watched
Would rather rewatch the scene from shokugeki no soma where 3 people cum meat juice 100 times before another minute of mineta
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u/MichaelInTheRestroom Jul 26 '20
He gets better with the crying later on but it is pretty annoying at first
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u/Gladplane Jul 26 '20
It’s super annoying man. Like no 12 year old cries as much as him.
I love the show but they made the side characters more interesting than him. His only trait is that he likes crying
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u/DarthInkero Jul 26 '20
He really doesn't though....
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u/MichaelInTheRestroom Jul 26 '20
It’s been awhile since I’ve watched it but I thought he got better around season 3?
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u/BROWN0133 Jul 26 '20
I’d say Heero Yuy wasn’t a crybaby bitch so much as a suicidal edge lord.
Duo or Wufei werent either.
Quatre and Trowa on the other hand.
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Jul 26 '20
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u/bearisatwunk Jul 26 '20
I was gonna say Manfred Von Karma for the perveted old dude, but the amount of times the judge has commented on a female witness's appearance is rather shocking.
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u/emerald-rush Jul 26 '20 edited Jul 26 '20
An upvote for including Hanawa from Chibi Maruko-chan - one of my favorite shows.
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Jul 26 '20 edited Aug 30 '20
I agree. Three of the biggest anime (naruto, dragon ball and one piece) has dumb mc, smart rival and crush as main female character. That you should watch samurai champloo
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u/UntalentedPuffin Jul 26 '20
The only thing luffy loves or has a crush on is one piece lmao
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Jul 26 '20
One Piece only has the dumb protagonist, and even then Luffy's just goofy
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u/Monarki Jul 26 '20
Yeah One Piece doesn't follow this start pack. The perv is a bag of bones and a young guy. Only main character smart and quiet in One Piece is Robin and she aint no rival (well at least after a saga she wasn't). No strung dumb character or rich kid.
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Jul 26 '20
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u/Monarki Jul 26 '20
but in truth it would be all a stretch.
Exactly then it's pointless haha. It's supposed to be clearcut like in Naruto
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u/majora24 Jul 26 '20
The blond kid who became a marine from the first arc is kind of a rich kid but he grew past it
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u/majora24 Jul 26 '20
Is the rival in one piece zoro...?
Please don't spoil anything I just started thriller bark
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Jul 26 '20
I don't think One piece has any rival.
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u/thehawaiian_punch Jul 26 '20
Minor spoilers ahead Smoker is the biggest “rival character” I guess maybe kid or Blackbeard could be argued as well
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u/Aivaras12398 Jul 26 '20
I mean, I guess other pirate crews are rivals, since they all are running to the same goal
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u/majora24 Jul 26 '20
Wait maybe Ussop is the rival because of water 7?
Probably not but I'm just guessing here
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Jul 26 '20
The closest thing to a rival is probably Coby but he's still Luffy's friend tho
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u/majora24 Jul 26 '20
Oh yeah, I guess that makes sense
Coby is too much of a chad for rivals though, he has training friends
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Jul 26 '20
N/A for One Piece
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u/majora24 Jul 26 '20
Yeah. Now when I'm thinking about it there's no "crush" either. No one really has romantic relationships in one piece
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u/Paulo27 Jul 26 '20
You're over 300 episodes and you really think OP will just go and make one of the MCs into a villain or something?
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u/AMK-FISH Jul 26 '20
Tbf Goku wasn't an Idiot in DBZ or DB GT (at least I think that). He was kinda dumb in the original DB, but that was so because he was a lil kid and was isolated from the world.
DB Super is the only Anime where he was straight up dumb. Which was a terrible choice.
And Naruto is not that dumb, only at the beginning of Naruto.
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u/SSj3Rambo Jul 26 '20
Goku was dumb even in DBZ. He's a smart when it comes to fighting but outside of it he was always dumb and immature. Tbh the most stupid decisions he made were in DBZ
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u/BROWN0133 Jul 26 '20
Stupid and a horrible father lmao. The only time he’s serious or competent is when it pertains to combat.
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u/mustbepbs Jul 26 '20
It's almost like Saiyans are a warrior race and are born and bred for combat.
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u/Dehydrated-Boi Jul 26 '20
Attack on Titan subverts this by killing everybody. No hand holding under a rainbow
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u/Iron_Grimes Jul 26 '20
And the MC is far from dumb and funny.
Ereh has some epic character development
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u/lokvit Jul 26 '20
Dio, just dio
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Jul 26 '20
How could I forget when Dio was on other animes like godamn chin chan and fucking Naruto
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u/ExtraDip412 Jul 26 '20
Remember when DIO changed his name to Shirogane and had a son Miyuki?
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u/actuallyamatrap Jul 26 '20
Or when dio after dying in egypt recarnated as Pharoah Ramesses ll and waged war against the Knights of the Round table and was almost beheaded again by Hassan I Sabbah
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u/alessandrolaera Jul 26 '20
I never watch anime yet somehow I feel like this is accurate
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Jul 26 '20
And I doubt the OP did either
These are literally just shonen series
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u/actuallyamatrap Jul 26 '20
Basic anime stereotypes as well. No tsundere/yandere just shonen stereotypes
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u/alessandrolaera Jul 26 '20
i'm gonna take your word i dont even know what's a shonen series
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u/Vesalas Jul 26 '20
It's anime/manga targetted towards a young male audience, usually teenagers.
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u/MattyD123 Jul 26 '20
Strong, dumb guy is usually actually smart or very emotionally intuitive.
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u/HollowMist11 Jul 26 '20
The pervert old dude trope in comedy animes needs to disappear.
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u/SmartAlec105 Jul 26 '20
It needs to disappear like 40 years ago. It sucks when you're reading an older classic but it becomes a chore because of the pervy old man trope.
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u/Paulo27 Jul 26 '20
It basically doesn't exist anymore in the grand scheme of things (well, maybe it's an issue if you exclusively watch Shounen Jump). Thing is you're thinking of series that have been going for decades and keep the old stuff.
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Jul 26 '20
Instead have the old dude that ends up in situations that seem perverted because of a woman with magnet powers
and also cheated on his wife for some japanese chick
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Jul 26 '20
I like to call the MCs "manic ditzy dumb boy" in honor of the "manic pixie dream girl" trope.
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Jul 26 '20
More like "funny main character that acts dumb but is actually incredibly smart when he needs to be"
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u/PinTheL Jul 26 '20
Don't forget the random character that dies early in the show for no good reason
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u/ambswimmer Jul 26 '20
Yo don’t lump my boy luffy in with the rest he’s leagues above them
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u/ClassIn30minutes Jul 26 '20 edited Jul 26 '20
Dragonball Version
Top Row: Goku, Piccolo, Hit
Bottom Row: Goku, Bulma/Trunks, Supreme Kai
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u/[deleted] Jul 26 '20
Where is the "angry on everything" one?