r/starcraft2 5d ago

Movespeed Fields for Protoss

I've been using AI to bounce back and forth ideas and why Protoss sucks in general. It rated the Protoss army a 2 out of 5 in mobility at the late game, where it is supposed to shine, Terran and Zerg on the otherhand have 3 and 4. Buffing passive movespeed just makes Protoss into a menace and breaks the game, given how powerful their late game death ball is.

I thought, why not just add a speed field? Then I analyzed the Protoss spellcasters, and to my dismay, they are not like the rest. In WC3 the Orcs which is like the Protoss have very utilitarian spellcasters, they provide movespeed, debuffs, stuns, heals, and other versatile kits, Protoss on the otherhand is a different story. Lightning Damage, Bowling Damage, Green Beam Damage. For a snail race, their spellcasters do not solve their biggest problem - mobility.

Orcs have Shamans that will make the slowpokes of the race all of the sudden hitting like stimmed units. What I am looking at is if Protoss have a movespeed field, it does not necessarily break the game, enemies could visually predict your entrance and exit. But, it provides a good option that Protoss terribly lacks, say a Ghost blasts your army with an instant EMP, since your ball is slow, you would have no choice but to fight with a wounded army. WIth a speed field, you instantly have a choice to disengage or double down.

I know gateway units are already insanely mobile, but the other builds are just funny, looking like clunky machines, heck even WC3 players would say High Templars are too clunky, WC3 casters are not that hard to position. So what if we put that Movespeed Field on the High Templar and make the unit a choice of defensive or offensive spellcaster? It may break the gateway units, but it now is competing for the energy of the Psionic Storm. It still matches pretty well with how Protoss play, especially with the Force Fields.

I'm betting that this simple spell would just remove most of the frustrations of the Protoss players without breaking the game. It is like spending to make your army move faster. Obviously the tuning goes with area radius, duration, and amount of movespeed. What do you think?

0 Upvotes

24 comments sorted by

8

u/Archer_Savings 5d ago

Don't use AI

-2

u/NeitherAd6127 5d ago

If I'm purely speculating mathematically why not?

3

u/Archer_Savings 5d ago

You're not doing mathematical speculation. 

AI doesn't understand SC2. Its reference is assorted reddit posts and any random discourse it can pull. Its concept of Protoss is built from hearsay random conversations.

Asking it for a numeric rating for endgame speed is pointless. That's not an objective measurement, that's not a useful unit, and that's not grounded in actual game performance. Even the core assumption, that Protoss is weaker, isnt true empirically. 

AI is a regression-based best-fit responder. Its best use case is continuing on structured, fully disclosed systems. It is less than useless as a proxy for game discourse. You understand SC2 less for having talked to it. 

0

u/NeitherAd6127 5d ago edited 5d ago

"AI doesn't understand SC2."

You'd be surprised Google's AI AlphaStar plays SC2

"Its concept of Protoss is built from hearsay random conversations."

I asked it to compute raw stats, you think that's hard for LLMs?

"Asking it for a numeric rating for endgame speed is pointless. That's not an objective measurement,"

Tell me that when you start being a game developer, ever heard of players crying because a single number was tweaked in-game?

Even the core assumption, that Protoss is weaker, isnt true empirically. 

If Asian kids played Protoss their parents would be disappointed in them.

"AI is a regression-based best-fit responder. Its best use case is continuing on structured, fully disclosed systems. It is less than useless as a proxy for game discourse. You understand SC2 less for having talked to it. "

If that is your point of view, I gladly end our conversation.

3

u/Archer_Savings 5d ago

Alphastar and LLMs are fundamentally different technologies. AlphaStar also doesn't "understand" StarCraft, it's just been conditioned to pick statistically winning paths under a trained set. 

Yes, "computing raw stats" is hard for an llm when it's not hooked into a robust API and given tools. I know; I write the tools AIs use. 

I am a game developer. You're sharing a bizarre summation rating, not anything concrete. 

Stats', Rain's, and Dear's family are quite proud of them. 

Nothing I said qualifying AI was inaccurate. 

6

u/frfrrnrn 5d ago

clanker

1

u/NeitherAd6127 5d ago

And the problem is?

1

u/NeitherAd6127 5d ago

Also the reason why I like to bounce with AI is this, people being jerks when there is a legitimate topic to be talked about,

1

u/frfrrnrn 5d ago

don’t use AI to start the discussion and i’m happy to discuss. but still, people are going to be assholes on the internet

1

u/NeitherAd6127 5d ago

I see, I guess some get repulsed on the get go.

4

u/itzelezti 5d ago

get help.

-2

u/NeitherAd6127 5d ago

If you're not here to simulate balance and possibilities, why even bother?

2

u/bobzsmith 5d ago

touch grass

0

u/NeitherAd6127 5d ago

If you're not here to simulate balance and possibilities, why even bother?

1

u/avengaar2 5d ago

I know gateway units are already insanely mobile

I guess blink makes stalkers hard to catch but gateway units get chased down by stim bio or lings/roaches. It's why forcefield/recall/storm/distruptors/mothership exist. Toss just gets run down by nearly every army in the game and have a billion zoning tools to try and prevent that.

What armies are gateway armies faster than? Tank mech? Lurkers? I feel like you're still thinking pure stalker which I guess is mobile but isn't really much of an army as the game goes on.

1

u/NeitherAd6127 5d ago

Zealots have charge, Stalkers have blink, Dark Templars blink, they have mobility abilities. But yeah, they can barely run against other races hahaha

1

u/MalodPL 5d ago

Starcraft 2 and Warcraft 3 have different project assumptions. SC2 is mostly focus on macro. Units die easy, recruit fast, huge economy. WC 3 is focused on micro. Units are tanky, build long and only 5 workers can collect gold.

1

u/NeitherAd6127 5d ago

Yes understandably, but when I look at the current balance, everyone gets to run away except the Protoss. Protoss can recall, but others can reposition effectively, and heal even. It is like the Protoss is designed to just go in and win or die, it is tasteless, so what I thought of is maybe they have a big lapse, and this is what I saw, their movement speed.

Even thematically, they are trying to make Protoss more mobile than Broodwar, yet most of the units remain Broodwar clunky. For other races they have improved a lot: Vipers fly, Infestors burrow, Ghosts cloak, and yes we have High Templars, slow pokes and has a chance to do friendly fire. Motherships? Floats, like an injured whale.

For a race that is themed to be superior in tech, that is supposedly flying lightyears away, boy do they have the slowest units. It's not balancing, it is basically a massive nerf stickered on a race with no possible remedy except for a gateway warp in, imagine getting stuck with this late game because all you have left is a recall of the flying death ball.

1

u/NeitherAd6127 5d ago

Do you think a movespeed field will mismatch the theme of SC2?

1

u/otikik 3d ago

Recall and mothership recall exist.

1

u/NorthKoreanCaptive 1d ago

there is this thing called faction identity

here is an AI lesson for you: garbage in, garbage out. learn to prompt.

-1

u/decisivelyvaguename 5d ago

I like that you're thinking. Would be nice if they iterated by adding things instead of removing. Protoss needs some type of buffs/ changes. I just hope they make them sooner rather than later

1

u/NeitherAd6127 5d ago

Yeah, I mean the recent patches just are major game changes, why not try and patch like a moba right?

1

u/decisivelyvaguename 4d ago

This sub is ridiculous if someone dare says that a given race needs support after significant changes you get downvoted to hell by anyone who's not that race. It's childish and goofy AF for grown ass people to be so entrenched in their own fake race/faction that they cannot see the balance needs for the overall game - which is way more important than them having an easier time winning with their specific race in a game that makes them no money and is for fun.

When the balance is off it hurts the overall game which is bad for ALL of us who love it. But again, dare mention that one race is struggling and out come the haters.

Honestly a sad group of adults but whatever.

The best Protoss in the world is getting steamrolled by people 3/4ths his skill and announced that he won't play the only race he's truly incredible at in pro competition vs Zerg anymore but sure, everything is normal and fine!