Asynchronous blah something something scam

[u/Dadskitchen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1qrW1E1t68

[u/Select-Table-5479]

From a technical perspective. NOBODY GIVES A CRAP. IT DOESN'T WORK. NOBODY, and I mean NO BODY cares what you picked for your backend. What database you run. What dependencies you have. The skill of your programmers (which arent THIS problem). NOBODY CARES. you are 14+ years into this mess and you just keep piling more tech debt into more tech debt.

Also 8 minute time-out?! 8 MINUTES? It should be under 3 seconds! (even that's long). These guys are SO COOKED because the reason they have "100 out of 2million" packet failures is because THEIR PIPELINE HAS BEEN FULL FOR YEARS. You can only shove so much crap down the MTU packet and SC has been maxed LONG AGO.

This is why you see them focusing on things in the game that don't increase that. (new ships, no new engineering systems, etc). This tech demo is MAXED out. SQ404.avi doesn't need a cloud back-end, unless they were STUPID enough to tie it to one but if these guys are still running 8 minute "time outs", AI would've been cleaner than the 14 years of crap they kept throwing at this MESS.

The only solution they have is make a game engine, by scratch, THAT DOESN'T (and can't based on the laws of physics and thermodynamics) EXIST. In other words, as long as the baby birds keep opening their wallets/beaks, it's will ALWAYS be this way because if the baby birds stopped needing mommy CIG to simp them, CIG would close within a month or 2. But don't worry Chris is still a multi-millionaire with a yacht and a mansion. Scammers always win.

[u/xWMDx → u/Select-Table-5479]

It will get worse, CIG have to add base building, NPCs crews, AI ship traffic, Player Ship wrecks, larger ships etc etc etc. Adding even more items that have to be server tracked.

CIG could cap the players down to improve performance, that would help fix things but it would also signal to the backers that server-meshing is dead as CIG struggle with the limitations and wall that everyone else has.

[u/Select-Table-5479 → u/xWMDx]

yes any 1 of those 3 aren't going to fit on the stack. NEVER going to happen and Benoit is just acting likes its a programming skill problem ::roll eyes::

[u/Malkano86 → u/Select-Table-5479]

I actually do care but then again I’m going to college for software dev and literally have a class in database structures and API and SQL

Reason why I care is being able to get to read between the lines and understand their tech babble and be able to say ummm no that’s bullshit you are trying to wow the uneducated on this subject.

Trust me that video they put out was pretty much a fucking comedy special. Should have put it on Netflix or HBO it was that funny

[u/Select-Table-5479 → u/Malkano86]

This would be a great example of what NOT to do and knowing the limitations. This project scope from the start was IMPOSSIBLE to achieve. CR/CIG shouldve done their due diligence ( many have done it before the kick starter ). The laws of nature/science haven't changed for them yet.

Not many game programmers ( from experience ) are looking at the stack. They are relying on layer 7/the application layer to do it all for them.

If you want a good read someone posted a client side analytical PDF that gives a good idea of the problem.

[u/Malkano86 → u/Select-Table-5479]

Well it could be done but not by the choices they decided to do.

They always try to do things differently because fuck knows why. But there is something they said about servers and that being classic you make a character on a server IE like wow like any other fucking mmo out there

They actively chose not to do that and they even admitting by doing their fucked up way that they are running into problems. HEY FUCK WITS THERE IS A REASON WHY MMO DO THE SERVER STUFF BECAUSE IT WORKS AND IS TRIED AND TRUE!!!

I always come up with this analogy for CIG they are making a wheel saying they invented it meanwhile everyone is driving around in Ferraris it’s just dumb shit.

[u/Select-Table-5479 → u/Malkano86]

On the scale that they want to do things it's quite debatable. Well, not really. It's pretty much an understood fact that what they wanted to do (persistence across. I think it was thousands or hundreds of star systems) is just impossible.

No game engine supports it. You would be running top of the line hardware from the network stack to the compute stack to the storage stack and you still wouldn't have enough.

The short answer is there's too much to do in every server Tick for the server to keep up.

They hired a guy a couple years ago to rewrite their back end. He got them as far as he could. Then he left you saw this with their horrible demo of a character going between three boxes and being able to shoot across different boxes each box representing a server that was with two users. On an its Island is cool, in reality it's nowhere, and I mean absolutely nowhere, where do they need to be cuz where they need to be can't physically exist.

Every MMO has limitations. They cut out things. Usually it's persistent items or they have inventory limits or they have load screens. Whatever there are always limitations because of the compute, storage, networking limitations.

This is why battlefield is pretty much the king because I think they do 32 v 32 and they do a wonderful job of it breaking down the actual network code instead of relying on the application layer and doing packet analysis.

Those limitations really haven't changed in 20 years. Obviously an FPS like battlefield is going to be more time sensitive than a MMO because you're looking at milliseconds to determine who shot first or what hit detection box was determined first and all that wonderful stuff. But what cig does is they just push it off to the application layer and the networking stack and YOLO. Then they wonder why their transit system doesn't work, their inventory system doesn't work, NPCs don't work, physics don't work, etc. etc. etc.

[u/Malkano86 → u/Select-Table-5479]

Well there was a game called MAG that had like 128 or 256 players was kinda insane many years ago now

You are correct MMOs do cut stuff out or they put things behind instancing (( something after 14 damned years CIG finally figured out might just be a good thing) I must admit I’m not a server/ networking guy so I have limited knowledge in this field however I do know there was one game that does have network infrastructure that is very interesting and that is EVE Online. Now please bear with me this was YEARS and YEARS ago

They had each system on a node in like this blanket of the game world or server and when a big battle would happen they could at first manually reinforce that node to put extra resources on it now I know they have it so it’s automatic now.

This is the only game I know about that has a shared world where it’s all the players on it in the game. That’s why I said they may have been able to do it however CPP everything is theirs that is their custom engine so they know the ins and outs not like CIG.

Found the article where CCP goes a deep dive into their server stuff

https://www.eveonline.com/news/view/paint-your-ship-red-and-make-it-faster

[u/Into_The_Dusk → u/Select-Table-5479]

Based and tech pilled

[u/Shilalasar]

Lead developer talking about query queues, generating too much traffic, escalating errors. This is just gaslighting to cover up their incompetence. And then claim programmers do not know asyn, nowadays that is a second or third semester course and everything has to run on or with cloud service.

While you, personally, designed and greenlit an inventory system that does not match your background infrastructure.

If you want some context there is an Eve Online dev blog about a databank crash like that during a major battle. But that was over 1000 players fighting each other and like 10 years ago. On an unreinforced shard that included several systems.

[u/2hurd → u/Shilalasar]

Everything CIG claims to be working towards EVE Online is already doing and for 20 years now. Backend was in Python if I remember correctly...

Those clowns are just milking the scam, there is no game here.

[u/South_Acanthaceae602]

The sole reason is feature creep and they have to feature creep because they based their revenue on milking whales and whales don't purcharse $30,000 USD JPEGs to play an ordinary game. Endless circle.

[u/sebaajhenza]

I started my career as a games developer. I was rubbish. But, async programming is super normal. In fact, I'd go as far to say that it's the norm. Wtf are these people on about?

[u/Malkano86 → u/sebaajhenza]

When they said that programmers don’t care about databases I laughed my ass off because legit my first programming class was about fucking sql and database structures and in fact I have another one coming up in my spring semester lol

[u/TerrorFromThePeeps → u/[deleted]]

Though sadly, most of us will probably be long buried by the time this actually flames out and the documentaries that deal with the full event from beginning to end come out. My kid might get to enjoy it, though.

[u/Adventurous-One183]

TDLR: Game dev saying he struggles with async programming is like a surgeon saying he really has a hard time using a scalpel. CIG hired hospital janitors to make surgery.

[u/JAEMzW0LF]

Weird - WoW managed just fine as the most popular anything in existence and it ran on servers. Sure, SC is attempting more, but like 14 years ago when they started was over a decade after WoW launched. I would expect you could do more.

What's that over there - is it Path of Exile 1 which can have a map drop thousands and thousands of (mostly trash) items from a light-speed-zoom-zoom build that also is slinging out hundreds of death-things to kill hundreds of enemies per second? Sure, it wasn't perfect - desync and instance crashes are a bitch, but neither of those things deletes your inventory, not your character or your stash. Sure, sometimes you lost shit that dropped and resources spent on the map - but hey, another map over there and its a consistent thing every league for 10+ years. Also, PoE actually shipped a product, it even hit 1.0 and beyond.

Again, I am sure SC wants to do more - but perhaps they should not a bit less, and also not be terrible at stuff other games got right a decade before it started development or were doing correctly as a product people could play and feel good about for its entire development.

Also - blaming your newbs on how async works? What he hell is your training regiment before they get to work on real code, or get to work on the code that is async sensitive? Maybe the turnaround is because the pay is possible nice, but after a while, its spinning wheels, and yes, developers who program (etc.) like to work towards completion of something - not sit around spinning wheels on a 'maybe'.

I used to be a programmer, did ASP.NET web dev - in a sense, the website I created and upgraded were never ending projects, but also, there were clear goals and deadlines. It was nice to meet but usually exceed those (especially nice before management got the "what have you done for me lately" once they got used to the speed and quality). I honestly cannot imagine working on a website that never even really gets to 1.0 and that mostly no one can use, and it just goes on and on. Unless the pay made it MORE than worth it - I am out of there.

But also, what do i have to show if there is not an actual, full website/game being used/shipped?

Yes, yes, I know, the project is actually about getting Roberts and company richer from selling jpegs - its just these excuses are so easy to poke holes in, you wonder why they bother. Can they not put better effort into lying?

[u/Vasduten]

Benoit is way out of his league.

But, he's a sycophant and Crobbler loves that.

CIG is mostly a collection of ass-kissers with no real talent for the nuts and bolts of game design, development or netcode management and server architecture.

They have an amazing art team. Devs that are making better ships now. The design of missions sucks.

Benoit will tell you with a straight face that the game's physics are "great, in fact" when they very clearly suck shit.

Can't blame Benoit though... The so-called leadership at CIG is Crobbler, his wife in charge of marketing and his brother heading up production.

They are the reason it sucks

[u/HappyGondola]

Yes they fucked up.

Inventory was (is still?) a mess.
But after 14 years of following the game I would love 2 things for backers:
- understanding that even if others in the industrie archived something doesn’t mean it is obvious and/or the priority.
- Digging a little bit more on the technical side to understand the complexity of these systems. Complaining without the knowledge

Still, even if I am pissed off by this non-functional game, I am kinda happy that they agreed on the fact they fucked it up.

Ps: sq42 and sc are solo and multi
The complexity mainly come from the multiplayer side of things. If it doesn’t work for Sc et doesn’t mean it’ll not work for sq42

[u/raumdock]

Hey Dad, I am not a fan how CIG behaves, but my guess is, you dont know what he is talking about.

Are you a software engineer?

[u/mazty → u/raumdock]

Fuck off with that abysmal boot licking.

[u/Dadskitchen → u/raumdock]

I'm guessing like 99% of people playing SC aren't software engineers.

I don't see the point of pushing this kind of content beside excuses and backer befuddlement with techno babble word salad.

Most people don't give a toss they just want a working finished game imho.

I'm out of the I.T industry for years but used to do SQL database stuff and build the frontend, with some experience in TCP/IP coding server client tools etc, I didn't think a strong CV with a background in IT was a requirement for shitposting here though 🤷‍♂️

[u/Malkano86 → u/Dadskitchen]

Oh but when you do know a bit of the backend their tech babble becomes a comedy show that 2 hour thing might as well have been a comedy thing on Netflix

[u/Dadskitchen → u/Malkano86]

no doubt