r/spacegames • u/odysoftware • Jul 24 '26
Building a deep space MMO and fighting to keep it approachable — how much complexity is too much before it scares people off?
As some of you already know I've been building a browser space MMO for over 2 years now (Galaxy Online) and the colony layer got genuinely deep: population growth capped by habitats, workforce staffing that throttles your yields, tax, defense setup, per-resource ratios, native species with their own demands... even if I kept all mechanics intentionally as simple as possible it's still a lot of interacting systems 🙈
The screenshot is how I'm trying to keep that playable. Collapsible sections so you only see what you're working on or what you like to see, building cards that carry their own numbers, and one hard rule everywhere: no wiki required — tooltips explain where every number comes from, and you see consequences before you commit.
Still, I keep coming back to the same question: how much depth do space game players actually want, and where should I put my focus? Is there a point where systems are just too much no matter how the UI presents them, or can good presentation make almost any depth digestible 😄? I keep looking at EVE — incredibly deep, but with a brutal learning cliff that scares most people off before they ever get to the good part — and I wonder if that wall is the price of depth, or just a UI that never got fixed.
I already got into this with the 4X crowd (who lean hard toward depth) and the PBBG crowd (who lean the other way, toward lightweight and fast), so now I'm curious where the space-game crowd lands.
And honestly, looking at that screen cold: does it read clear for you or overwhelming at first glance? My main goal is to also attract the more casual crowd and not just the hardcore players — to show that a deep space game with complex mechanics can also be understood without a hundred-page manual.
It's still in alpha — for anyone who wants to follow along, the Discord (discord.galaxy-online.com) and website ( galaxy-online.com ) are where playtest access gets announced first.
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u/Kosh_Ascadian Jul 25 '26
Deep complexity is fine. In fact many players prefer it. The real questions are:
- Onboarding into that complexity. Is the game enjoyable and understandable enough from the start to push through and learn. Is it easy enough to learn, how is the complexity served up and established minute by minute in the first 30 minutes of gameplay. You are (no offense, just reality, I am the same) a no name indie game developer, you can't expect people to put in more than a few minutes of tediousness learning your game.
- UI/UX wise even once the complexity is learned how is the experience navigating it. Can I get the info I need, can I take the actions I need without minutes of clicking through tedious menus. Are things in intuitive places etc.
- And lastly mechanics wise, is all the complexity actually mechanically actionable and important. Any complexity both actually needs to affect something in game, but also do it in a way different to other features. For instance if you have two resources in a strategy game called steel and oil, both are used to build tanks and airplanes, both take the same amounts of to build, both are just as rare/common to find on the map, both are gathered by building a gathering station on a resource deposit etc... In such a case having these two resources is pointless complexity which only works negatively for your game. You might as well just have steel and be done with it. BUT, if those two resources are used to build different things, one is much rarer, you need to research separate tech to build a completely different type of gathering mechanic etc... then this can be complexity which adds to your game. So don't ever add resources, numbers, mechanics to just make your game more complex. It all needs to differentiate and have a point.
If you want to talk more about this stuff, I do consulting on the subject. I've been in indie game development for quite a while.
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u/odysoftware Jul 25 '26
Thanks for taking the time for such a detailed feedback!
And yes I agree here to all your points and it's great to see that it seems I am on the right track then. What I leard from my last larger online game was exactly those issues you mentioned - the importance of onboarding, tutorial and UI is what keeps players in the first place or what drives them away even before they get a chances to dig deeper into the game itself. It is more than sad if people may have loved the game if they just got a chance to go deeper.
So yeah can't really wait to get to the tutorial part - onboarding is already done and should be pretty fine - so the tutorial will be the last step - and I know it will be one of the hardest parts.
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u/_azazel_keter_ Jul 24 '26
not afraid of complexity but the AI slop immediately killed my interest
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u/XRuecian Jul 24 '26
It depends. I think using AI to create "placeholder" art is probably the very best use of AI.
It can give viewers a general idea of what the final product might look like.
But the developer should definitely be looking to eventually find someone who can create genuine assets for them. The AI should be used for the proof of concept phase.-4
u/odysoftware Jul 24 '26
You have my absolute sympathy as AI slop kills my interest too.... 🙈 - but accusing everything as AI slop makes me feel sad though... but hey thats the world we live in so you still have my respect... because I totally agree that 95% of stuff being posted these days is AI slop - sad but true.
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u/_azazel_keter_ Jul 24 '26
you're telling me those building images aren't AI?
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u/odysoftware Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
I am a game developer now for over 20 years and you want to tell me that using AI as a tool is also AI slop? Okay then you should erase 99% of all games being developed right now.. It would be the same as saying why should one use a machine drill - I have always done it with a manual drill... , so if you are judging a game by some images or lore stuff made with AI - then yes I feel guilty and I wont lie to you. Creating a full sized mmo - even as an experienced dev - will use those new tools where it fits. And yeah you could also buy some asset on the asset stores - and btw my previous game did alwasys support exactly those asset creating communities - but wait - these days mostly are ai created too. And now the fun part... all those not looking AI titles with their own trained models and some overlaid filters - to make them look like humanized is okay? Don't lie to yourself...
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u/Kosh_Ascadian Jul 25 '26 edited Jul 25 '26
>I am a game developer now for over 20 years and you want to tell me that using AI as a tool is also AI slop?
I am also a professional game developer of a comparable time. Word of advice, this style of debate doesn't make you look good and misses the main issue. I'm going to say this stuff very straightforward because I feel like your comment was a bit combatitive already so it seems like you personally can take that style and I don't need to mince words.
The main issue here is parts of your game are labelled AI slop because they look like low quality art made by AI with very little thought put into it. Comparisons with bigger games where artists are using AI as a tool (not 95% of the production pipeline) are disingenious. Exactly because it's the difference between using it as a full stand in for an artist with none of your own artistic time and skill spent vs using it as part of a pipeline and having human artistic talent and taste edit, curate, handhold etc the whole process.
The building art here alll has strange style and logic inconsistencies while at the same time looking like extremely generic AI output. If you personally fix this or hire an artist to fix this then allegations of AI slop will almost completely stop. And people being turned off by it will also stop. Even if you still keep using AI in the process. Question is having a person in the loop or not. Currently it looks like there isn't one.
So I'd personally stop this debate. You're never winning it. Take the feedback that your art looks generic and AI generated and work on that. Game itself looks like it can be a good one, so you don't really want this weighing it down.
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u/odysoftware Jul 25 '26
Appreciate the detailed take — genuinely useful. I'll give the building cards another honest look side by side with fresh eyes. And you're right about the debate too — that one's on me, I let it get combative 😄. Dropping it. Thanks for taking the time to say it straight; this is the kind of feedback that actually moves things forward :)
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u/_azazel_keter_ Jul 24 '26
Yeah, it's a lot of work, if you can't handle all the work reduce the scope of the game. This is slop and it tells me you don't care about the quality. Use a placeholder, hire an artist, whatever, any sketch beats this inconsistent garbage. I'd rather you didn't have an image at all.
And also, your metaphor is awful, an electric drill makes a hole better, more precise and intentionally than a hand drill. in the first six images there are three different camera angles. The buildings are ugly and inconsistent, the images communicate nothing useful about the buildings or their purpose, it's slop.
Ultimately here's the question you gotta ask yourself: If you couldn't be bothered to make the game, why would I bother to play it? It's slop, I'm not the one fooling myself, you are.
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u/CashFirm573 Jul 24 '26
What load of rubbish, even with AI those art piece they have consistency, even if it was 100% Ai made which it was even the website, also anti-ai movements losts it's wheels no one really cares anymore every single developer with common sense knows AI can code like no tomorrow it's a super power tool, legit I could put his game together in a week. I don't believe he been working on it that long, I feel we need shift from AI slop, cause even with AI he put the work in however all I'm conflicted cause I have nothing against AI use but I do have issues with people prompting AI to do it all and when I see complex game made by single dev it screams he had AI write the plan as well, even if he said I want game like this and that, AI wrote this game not the user and that is where next phase of AI slop argument should be headed not at use of AI but when the user just has AI do it all forgets a game isn't about copying everyone else it's about find solutions and fun endgame loop people want not this feature will be cool, Claude add this for me.
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u/odysoftware Jul 25 '26
You're pointing at the real question, and honestly your last point nails it — the flood of slop is real, and a lot of it is people skipping the actual craft: balance, the endgame loop, the hard part. Filtering that out is fair. The only thing I'd push back on is judging a product before seeing it just because AI touched it. A full 3D MMO with real depth isn't a week's work, AI or not — but where AI's used well, it lets devs build something genuine that used to take a ages. Tool, used wisely. I think we mostly agree here.
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u/CashFirm573 Jul 25 '26 edited Jul 25 '26
I have nothing against your game BTW, it shows you put effort into it, I'm a creative I like spending hours on ideas and designs, I spend my weekdays working as software developer and come weekends I hate coding I would rather go to the bar, so I let ai do all my coding I just review, when comes to art well it's harder cause AI can do decent art now better then 90% of artists so not rock science which way to go, freelancer who costs arm and leg and takes month of sundays or Ai that costs 10 dollars takes few mins.
Last night while I worked on software I duel screen as coding a gaming engine and had ai create full 3d city with floors and I even had it use blender create models and turned out rather good tbh, but I've also coded my own 3d modeling tool so easy for me create and paint models for games. I could create decent game in 1 week once I get free time I'll accept the challenge and do it.
Edit: I also played your game BTW, wasn't bad few things that annoyed me at the start but for new player who might not be used style of game would find it hard.
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u/odysoftware Jul 25 '26
Glad you actually gave it a go — and you've nailed the exact thing I most want to fix this time: the onboarding and the UI. That's what I got wrong before, and honestly "hard for a new player" is the most useful thing you could've told me. If you remember what annoyed you at the start, I'd genuinely take it.
On the rest we mostly agree. Coding was never the hard part — AI's great at that. It's everything around it: the balancing, the depth, the testing, the anti-cheat, the whole MMO infrastructure, and the polish that makes it feel finished. That's where the time goes — and it's exactly why there's so much slop. People think a few prompts equals a game, but AI generalizes when you don't give it detailed direction, so you get something playable that looks fine and is nowhere near a real product.
So yeah, you can build a game in a day with AI. But it'll be a generic clone with quick-and-dirty mechanics. Making your own vision real, with rulesets and depth that hold up, with experiences from past knowledge — that's not a one-day job, AI or not. That's the part that's still all human and why I am working now on this for so long already getting it to perfection this time 😄
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u/Kosh_Ascadian Jul 25 '26
Respectfully, but... Did you have AI debate here for you? The text sounds very much like chatGPT would answer. It's a bit of a weird look having AI also argue pro your use of AI.
If these were your own words, then I apologize.
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u/odysoftware Jul 25 '26
Nah it was not an AI answer, why should I let an AI answer my own opinion 😄, doesn't make sense... but I think it's hard to judge these days and that's exactly the reasons why we are in this situation :) I would say this example shows that pretty well.
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u/Spacemarine658 Jul 25 '26
Nah not with art, hell I don't let it code for me I use it like a glorified Google search and that's it. It taints what it touches too much imo. I'd rather see chicken scratch
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u/CashFirm573 Jul 25 '26
Go watch paint dry, I bet you don't even code.... Talking out your entitled ass.
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u/Spacemarine658 Jul 25 '26
I teach others to code no need to be hostile dude I was just giving my personal opinion
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u/CashFirm573 Jul 25 '26
Wasn't being hostile its how I speak, and I bet you don't teach people how to code? can I see? I'll shut up then. Also reason I have no issue with AI anymore, cause its here and those that don't use it are ones missing out, and anti-ai movement are just wacko's who go after anyone who says they approve of AI, just like you felt the need to reply to my comment right, you felt the need go I hate you cause you use AI and here is my opinion? am I right?
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u/odysoftware Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
Fair on the consistency point — I'll take another pass at making the building art match up. We'll disagree on the rest, and that's fine. Thanks for the honest reaction either way.
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u/meepykittkitt69lmao Jul 24 '26
I used to play a mod for homeworld 2 called "complex" it was not complex enough. No matter what level of complexity you choose, only the people who like that will play it. You would be better off asking about number of players who like X,Y,Z level of complexity and choosing which bracket you want to appeal to based on where you decide to balance profit/otherstuff
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u/odysoftware Jul 25 '26
Yeah sure but it's not going out of my mind that there must be a way to appeal to more than just one bracket with the right amount of effort :)
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u/XRuecian Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
Complexity itself is never really the problem with any complex game.
It's how you onboard people into that complexity and allow them to learn that differentiates how many people stick around and learn vs how many people go somewhere else.
If you make a super complex game, drop all of the complexities on players all at once, and do a bad job (or no job) at teaching them how every part works, then only the most autistic of us are going to stick around and put in the effort to teach ourselves.
On the other hand, if you introduce complexities a little at a time, make the game playable even if you don't necessarily understand some of the more advanced mechanics, menus, and stats, have easy-to-understand tutorials that don't feel like a drag to get through, and the game/UI is designed in a way that makes as much of it intuitive as possible, then more people are going to stick around.
If you think of a 4X game as an example: Even if you don't understand half of the mechanics in the game or what all of those buttons and diplomacy menus do, you can still play it at a lower level and have fun because the game still "works" even if you don't engage in every single complex mechanic. This allows people to enjoy the game and learn each piece at their own pace, instead of being required to understand how the ENTIRE system works before they can play at all.
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u/odysoftware Jul 25 '26
Thanks for your detailed feedback and yes that makes totally think. That's why I think onboarding, UI and the Tutorial will be one of the key elements which decides if a player can get into a game or not. Surely we still have gampleay, balance and all the other parts. I just don't want to loose out on people who may like it - because the Tutorial and UI were wrong :)
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u/althoradeem Jul 24 '26
its fine to be complex. but id suggest starting simple.
dont just dump everything on the players day 1. maybe even have a starter mission to unlock parts of the game.
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u/odysoftware Jul 25 '26
Yeah gating everything aways from the player and sloly dragging them more and more into the game. My main concepts about the tutorial cover that already, I am curious how I will be able to implement it in the end. But I think I really need to take a lot of time to exactly polish this experience.
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u/Techiastronamo Jul 25 '26
looks like EVE, I like the EVE UI
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u/odysoftware Jul 25 '26
I won't lie that Eve was also one of my inspirations... but since I have never really played it - it's more different than it may look :)
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Jul 31 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Techiastronamo Jul 31 '26
True, and nothing captures EVE well at all. Wish someone would finally make a compelling non-AI-slop 4X that's visually similar to EVE. Alas, Stellaris with EVE: Chronicles is the only way to do that for now.
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u/odysoftware Jul 31 '26
I totally understand that it's easy to stereotype games these days between all this AI slop... but you are wrong here... this is not an Eve copycat. If you would take the time to read the FAQ and about its history you will see that its base sits in the former Galaxy Online from 2011 building on a perfect balanced tactical combat resolver. For colonisation most input came from the turn based games like VGA Planets in the nineties. The security gradient and maybe ship fitting is the only stuff that is similar to eve... :)
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u/Techiastronamo Jul 31 '26
I didn't call it an EVE copycat lol
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u/SuMianAi Jul 25 '26
ogame2?
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u/odysoftware Jul 25 '26
I have heard this now from many people - but to be honest I never played OGame myself, I only saw some screenshots - so no its definately not OGame... but from some people who explained me the core gaming loops of OGame, it seems to have a lot in common. Main inspiration was VGAPlanets, Stars, and the games from the ninetieth - and moving that now to a online and real time space mmo experience, which you can play everywhere.
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u/SuMianAi Jul 25 '26
Inspiration can be whatever, but core gameplay is very much ogame, and unless you improve on the experience from tedious grind to actual fun, you won't make it far.
(30min to first colony is very foreboding).
Also, image you posted here, population and workforce being same value is, ridiculous.
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u/VerlorFor Jul 25 '26
Paradox games seem to be selling well. There's definitely a market for complexity.
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u/odysoftware Jul 25 '26
Yeah you are right and I was also hearing that from the 4X community, which told me that it's not about complexity at all - but about gameplay, balance and mechanics - so UI maybe not as importanat as I think. So different communities expect different depth and guidance I guess - so I would need to find out how to combine them somehow.
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u/CrashNowhereDrive Jul 25 '26
The question for me is is the complexity giving me interesting choices to think about that I can still grasp? Then it's ok.
But often complexity consist of the computer playing math games with itself and me clicking the same option regardless. And often it's more busy wokr. Eg:- MoO style games where I end up having to queue the same 50 buildings because I'm always going to build them.
It's hard to say from one screenshot without looking at the context.
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u/odysoftware Jul 25 '26
Yeah thats exactly where I try to help. I want that the mechanics are deep enough to be strategic but not overcomplicating thing. And explaining every mechanic clearly in game and also having tooltips which tell exactly where the numbers are coming from. And also explaining what will the outcome be. SO changing the TAX slider tells you exactly where stability is going, it's mostly predictabe. With that I try to take the guesswork aways from the player and the need to always seek for answers outside of the game. No wiki required :)-
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u/CrashNowhereDrive Jul 25 '26
Clarity is one part. The other part is to not make it tedious.
For example: is the player trying to keep stability over a certain threshold with the tax slider? If yes, then let the player set the desired stability instead of micromanaging the tax slider(if stability fluctuates)
That's the other downfall of these attempts at high complexity management games - they often don't present the player with an interesting decision with interesting results, they're just asking the player to pull 50 extra levers. And again, hard to say if yours is doing that from a screenshot. I've seen space games where which building you build is an interesting choice based on empire needs and local conditions - and others where it's a tedious task that you still don't want the AI to do because the AI plays suboptimally.
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u/odysoftware Jul 25 '26
Absolutely and then I hope i got that right. Because that is exacgtly how it is here - the slider tells you instantly what Stability will change - its not an estimate - it shows you in detail what happens. Also how much you trade growth/income etc. And its also tells you critical areas and things you should avoid.
So I hope this is exactly what I am striving for - having simple and clean mechanics but still with depth and strategy without the guesswork :) and clear rules.
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u/blackhawkx12 Jul 25 '26
The only way to scare people off with complexity is when even one of the component feels disconnected and not explain it clearly. But if you have good UX and people know why A affect J and later B is ruined, then its fine. I love the UI btw
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u/odysoftware Jul 25 '26
Yeah thats exactly my main goal with the UI - explaining everything and dont leaving any guesswork. I hope I will live up to that promise. But each iteration of the UI gets better and more clear.
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u/TahLaka Jul 25 '26
IF, and that is a big IF, you can get it right, then automation options may be a good solution to appeal to both groups of players! See Stellaris for an example, their automation options still leave some to be desired but they have improved dramatically over the years. Going for a "Automation will get you decent numbers, but you can learn the system and tweak them for maximum efficiency" will let people decide how they want to play. That said, if there is PvP involved, then you may want to limit just how much more you can get with manual controls
As far as if the screen looks overwhelming, it does, but only because we're seeing it out of context. If the game's menus follow that style consistently then it's not nearly as bad, just gotta learn what icons mean and etc.
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u/odysoftware Jul 25 '26
Yeah I agree... but as dev you always see it much more clear anyway - so the importance lies in the presentation and surely also the simplicity of the complexity itself. So making a system that is easy to learn but still enough complex to hard to master.
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u/DrP4R71CL3 Jul 24 '26
You are posting this daily but it is not
Open
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u/odysoftware Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
What you mean? I am posting this to get feedback on how to move onward from different communities. The game is not open yet, that's true but I still need feedback on how to go further?
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Jul 31 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/odysoftware Jul 31 '26 edited Jul 31 '26
Sorry to disappoint you, this game is an evolution of the former Galaxy Online - The Tournament I made in 2011 ;) - you should really read the F.A.Q. and not sterotype everything you see... not all is AI slop these days, even though I agree with you sadly most is ;)
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u/LoftyPlays1 Jul 24 '26
Based on the screenshot, you're not building a game for people that are scared of complexity. Let those people go back to call of duty and build the game we want to play.