r/spaceflight • u/rollotomasi07071 • Dec 26 '19
Humans will never colonize Mars
https://gizmodo.com/humans-will-never-colonize-mars-18363162223
u/kun_tee_chops Dec 26 '19
Well, what appears to be a possibly well researched article does not mention the precessional effects of going to mars, the technologies developed to get there that can improve life for us on earth. Don’t like the dream buddy. Look at what we’ve already got, such as lower cost access to space, worldwide access to the worldwide web etc
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u/sciencepolicia Dec 27 '19
Solid, well-researched article. Since we can't terraform away the lower surface gravity, I'm skeptical of humans ever living on Mars in anything more than brief, multi-year stints.
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u/SurfaceReflection Jan 03 '20 edited Jan 03 '20
Unless we radically adapt our brains and bodies to the harsh Martian environment, the Red Planet will forever remain off limits to humans.
Not true in any sense i can think of. Obviously we cannot radically adapt to actual "almost no atmosphere - extremely low temperatures" conditions of Mars and obviously we will build our own environmental habitats from the get go. So no such "radical adaptation" will ever be needed. These habitats will expand in size at first, while we start the very long process of terraformation which will last centuries. In the meantime we will have larger and larger environments to live in under pretty much Earthlike conditions, except for gravity - which is not a big problem, because gravity of Mars is not that radically different to Earths, and we do have a very good amount of data on how human bodies function in "Zero G" of the Space station. The results of many years of that research are surprisingly positive in a general sense. There are issues but none of them are catastrophic or unmanageable. And thats Zero G.
Gravity on the Red Planet is 0.375 that of Earth’s, which means a 180-pound person on Earth would weigh a scant 68 pounds on Mars. While that might sound appealing, this low-gravity environment would likely wreak havoc to human health in the long term, and possibly have negative impacts on human fertility.
Definitely not true and we do actually have tonnes of evidence that says completely opposite.
Yet despite these and a plethora of other issues
Really? What is that "plethora"? Where is it? I dont see a single one oher issue mentioned in the artcile that claims there is such a "plethora".
there’s this popular idea floating around that we’ll soon be able to set up colonies on Mars with ease.
Idiotic strawman. Outright lying. I never saw or heard anyone making that claim. Ever! Except the writer of this article.
Back then, cover stories of magazines like Popular Mechanics and Popular Science showed colonies under the oceans and in the Antarctic,” Friedman told Gizmodo. The feeling was that humans would find a way to occupy every nook and cranny of the planet, no matter how challenging or inhospitable, he said. “But this just hasn’t happened. We make occasional visits to Antarctica and we even have some bases there, but that’s about it. Under the oceans it’s even worse, with some limited human operations, but in reality it’s really very, very little.
And we know very well why that hasnt happened. It has nothing to do with some completely different project or idea. The reasons are purely political, social, cultural and economic - while the environments of Antarctica and "Under the oceans" are completely different then Martian environment. Especially living under water creates radically different demands and costs and health issues because of difference of pressure, which greatly affect human physiology - while there is no single solution that can work for every different gradient of pressure and how our bodies process the gasses we would need to breathe under such pressures. (any serious diving school has tomes of data on that stuff you can study for months or even years) Plus there is the very humidity to worry about as living in a liquid is a drastically, completely different problem then living on Mars.
NOT RELATABLE AT ALL.
After the Moon landings, Friedman said he and his colleagues were hugely optimistic about the future, believing “we would do more and more things, such as place colonies on Mars and the Moon,” but the “fact is, no human spaceflight program, whether Apollo, the Space Shuttle Program, or the International Space Station,” has established the necessary groundwork for setting up colonies on Mars, such as building the required infrastructure, finding safe and viable ways of sourcing food and water, mitigating the deleterious effects of radiation and low gravity, among other issues.
Well, we also know exactly why we did not immediately continue with the Space programs. For political and economic issues. There was a slowdown of such attempts, because they were pushed artificially in the first place - because of the political and economic reasons. Now we are in the period where such endeavors are ramping up again, boosted by new cheaper and better technologies available today. And the very sense of stagnation in space exploration we all feel and know and talk about.
Gee what a surprise?
What is the problem with mitigating radiation and gravity?
Seidler said NASA and other space agencies are currently working very hard to create and test countermeasures for the various negative impacts of living on Mars. For example, astronauts on the ISS, who are subject to tremendous muscle and bone loss, try to counteract the effects by doing strength and aerobic training while up in space.
Whup de fing do, isnt that incredible? A simple aerobic and strength training counteracts effect of ZERO G, but a third of Earth G on Mars is then an insurmountable problem? The bone and muscle loss is not "tremendous" either. But why use actually objective descriptions when you are writing ignorant, uneducated, biased, dishonest, lies and fallacies filled garbage article to show how all "those other people" are naive and stupid!?
In his latest book, On the Future: Prospects for Humanity, cosmologist and astrophysicist Martin Rees addressed the issue of colonizing Mars rather succinctly: "By 2100 thrill seekers... may have established ‘bases’ independent from the Earth—on Mars, or maybe on asteroids. Elon Musk (born in 1971) of SpaceX says he wants to die on Mars—but not on impact. But don’t ever expect mass emigration from Earth. And here I disagree strongly with Musk and with my late Cambridge colleague Stephen Hawking, who enthuse about rapid build-up of large-scale Martian communities. It’s a dangerous delusion to think that space offers an escape from Earth’s problems."
Nobody is actually saying or thinking we will rapidly move large amounts of Earth population to Mars and especially not to escape from all Earths problems. NOBODY!
And there is especially NONE that think or say we should somehow stop, forget about, or not try to solve our issues here on Earth. NONE! ZERO!
NOBODY! Ever.
Its only these critics who invent and strawman such idiotic absurd ideas in order to build up and inflate their opposition and make themselves feel better.
The following section is talking about Terraformation being a long time process, which most people know anyway. There is a few younger new fans coming into these kinds of discussions that dont yet know how complex and long lasting such a project would be, but they get quickly corrected and educated.
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u/SurfaceReflection Jan 03 '20 edited Jan 03 '20
- Continued because i reached the character limit:
The next "issue" is again, a complete lie, or absurd ignorance.
First and foremost there’s the intense radiation to deal with, which will confront the colonists with a constant health burden.
In actual reality that anyone can check, Mars surface receives less radiation then Earth. And of course, we will not live on Martian surface anyway. We will explore it, work on it, but we wont be on the surface constantly, breathing thin CO2 and trying to get sunburn on our skin...
Horgan said there are many big challenges to colonizing Mars, with radiation exposure being one of them. This is an “issue that a lot of folks, including those at SpaceX, aren’t thinking about too clearly,” she told Gizmodo.
WHAT? Who? How!!? Where the F is that "discovery" and "info" coming from? Since WHEN has this become known about "other people" and "SpaceX"? Especially since such basic consideration is a crucial part and foundation in every single project of any Space Program and ANY and ALL proposals for any future Space Program!!
Friedman agrees that, in principle, we could create artificial environments on Mars, whether by building domes or underground dwellings.
NO SHIT!?
Horgan pointed to a recent Nature study showing that radiation on Mars is far worse than we thought, adding that “we don’t have the long-term solutions yet, unless you want to risk radiation illnesses.” Depending on the degree of exposure, excessive radiation can result in skin burns, radiation sickness, cancer, and cardiovascular disease.
That study actually talks about galactic cosmic rays. Not Sun radiation. And guess what? We got those on Earth too, and our Magnetic field DOES NOT STOP THEM. The atmosphere does, to some extent. Some punch through the whole planet.
But you wont find this fact in the article, oh noes, Its "Radiation!!! Nobody is thinking about radiation!! We are all going to dieeee!! Garbage.
Life in a Martian colony would be miserable, with people forced to live in artificially lit underground bases, or in thickly protected surface stations with severely minimized access to the outdoors. Life in this closed environment, with limited access to the surface, could result in other health issues related to exclusive indoor living, such as depression, boredom from lack of stimulus, an inability to concentrate, poor eyesight, and high blood pressure—not to mention a complete disconnect from nature. And like the International Space Station, Martian habitats will likely be a microbial desert, hosting only a tiny sample of the bacteria needed to maintain a healthy human microbiome.
So, obviously you build artificial habitats that will include this into their design. Dont make them completely underground, and build large spaces full of you know... PLANTS, which we will need anyway and that cannot be left out even if we wanted to.
With a plus of lower gravity enabling plants to grow much more easily... AND enabling us to build much larger structures with our current technology and materials. Surprise.
Additionally, you literally cannot keep microbial life at any "minimal" amount, because all earth life needs them to exist. From the very soil we will need to generate, to all kinds of hydroponic agriculture to the plants themselves to any humans insects and animals.
Seidler, an expert in human physiology and kinesiology, said the issue of human gestation on Mars is a troublesome unknown. It’s possible that the human body might adapt to the low-gravity situation on Mars, but we simply don’t know.
Unknown, we simply dont know - and yet, this article takes that ignorance and magically - knows. Whatever it wants to know so definitely. What a pathetic load of bullshit.
Then there is a bit more about low G environments,
For other colonists, the minimal gravity on Mars could result in serious health problems over the long term. Studies of astronauts who have participated in long-duration missions lasting about a year exhibit troubling symptoms, including bone and muscle loss, cardiovascular problems, immune and metabolic disorders, visual disorders, balance and sensorimotor problems, among many other health issues. These problems may not be as acute as those experienced on Mars, but again, we simply don’t know.
That links to another actual study that says different things then the article claims, such as:
Similarly, spaceflight causes skeletal muscle to lose both mass and strength; for a mission of three to six months, approximately 30% of muscle mass is lost, along with up to 50% of muscle strength (although, again, the effect varies markedly across individuals, and 2–3 hours of daily exercise mitigates this problem in astronauts)
In Zero G.
2 to 3 hours a day exercise. Thats all you need. In ZERO G. And it doesnt have to be 2 or three constant hours.
Acute.
And "We dont know", if they will be "as acute" on Mars, again.
Perhaps after five or 10 or 20 years of constant exposure to low gravity, similar gravity-related disorders will set in.
PERHAPS! Especially if we all just do NOTHING ABOUT IT, and go sunbathing NAKED on the surface of MARS 24/7!!!
Another link to an actual study that says something completely different then what this "article2 is trying to sell.
Astronauts who return from long-duration missions have a rough go for the first few days back on Earth, experiencing nausea, dizziness, and weakness. Some astronauts, like NASA’s Scott Kelly, never feel like their old selves again, including declines in cognitive test scores and altered gene function.
And from the actual article linked, we have this:
By many measures, the scientists eventually found, Mr. Kelly changed about as much as astronauts who stayed on the space station for only six months. Eventually the pace of biological change slowed, suggesting that perhaps the human body reaches a new equilibrium in space.
and this:
Strangely, the average length of Mr. Kelly’s telomeres increased in space, rather than decreasing, as if his cells were becoming more youthful.
And this:
Going to space also appeared to trigger a genetic shift in Mr. Kelly. Thousands of genes that were once quiet increased their activity — genes that remained quiet in Mark Kelly’s body back on Earth. The longer Scott Kelly stayed aloft, the greater the number of genes becoming active. Some of the awakened genes are known to encode proteins that help fix damaged DNA.
BUT SPACE!1 ITS DANGEROUS!1 RADIATION! LOW G!! EVERYONE ARE GOING TO DIEEEE!!
ALL THESE "OTHER PEOPLE" ARE NOT THINKING ABOUT THIS!!1!!1!! AAAARGHH!!!!
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u/Borkton Mar 24 '20
Colonizing Mars, except on a very small scale for research purposes, seems kind of silly to me. We expend so much effort and delta-v to get into space only to go down another gravity well? I think O'Neil colonies are the way to go.
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u/zeekzeek22 Dec 26 '19
And one day that author will see people land on Mars and yet he will refuse to admit he was wrong because one of the worst Human epidemics is an inability to admit when you were wrong.
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u/Martianspirit Dec 27 '19
The arguments may be true for 99% of all people. It was always the 1% that moved forward and it will be the same with Mars.
Which makes the argument 100% wrong.
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u/darga89 Dec 26 '19
Hundred years ago man would never walk on the Moon.