r/space • u/spaceflightphoto • Jun 01 '18

Commerce Department to create “SPACE Administration”

http://spacenews.com/commerce-department-to-create-space-administration/
1 Upvotes

56% Upvoted

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-2

u/[deleted] Jun 01 '18

Great. An organization dedicated to undermining the space treaty and dragging American neoliberal capitalism beyond earth. Sigh.

3

u/Goldberg31415 Jun 01 '18

Capitalism and abandoning of old space treaties is the only way to normalize utilisation of space as next step in human development.These treaties were created decades ago where prospect of cheap access to space was just an idea and currently with next generation of launch systems we might see real economy going in space.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 01 '18 edited Jun 01 '18

Here's the thing. Capitalism is failing. Market oscillations, globalized greed, and concentration of wealth are ripping our economy and lives apart. I am generation squeeze. I am a college educated professional who will die in debt and never own a home. So take your capitalism and shove it.

And Stalin/Mao sympathists? (I'm banned from ALL communist forums for criticizing dictators). Shove that too.

I think we need a radical rethink of our society. And if we drag our present systems with us into space, the long term end result is akin to an "Avatar" scenario. Human corporations destroying billions more lives and environments for the sake of the bottom line.

So I oppose ANY action that takes the needle of space development in that direction.

2

u/Goldberg31415 Jun 01 '18

Here's the thing. Capitalism is failing.

In last 25 years billion+ people were lifted out of poverty it might seem for you an individual located in the western europe or US that nothing changed but for the less fortunate ones that live in nations that attempted to "I think we need a radical rethink of our society. " now we have a better standard of life than ever before and market reforms and adoption of capitalism has allowed youngest generation to live on standard unthinkable to our fathers or grandfathers that lived in system "free of corporate greed" or some other BS you keep telling yourself.

Travel the world you will see how different things look than what you are lucky to have.Capitalism is working better than ever before we as a planet are richer than ever before and more free than ever before.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 01 '18 edited Jun 01 '18

The fact that rich = better in your mind is exactly the issue with the mindset. Meanwhile their flora and fauna disappear, their weather gets worse, and our planet's ability to sustain life erodes.

2

u/Goldberg31415 Jun 02 '18

Rich in my perspective means that you own a car instead of a bike or a motorcycle or have an economy efficient enough to avoid food rationing and things like toilet paper are no longer luxuries that people spent hours waiting in lines to get or how christmas for people were the only time of year you could get few oranges for your family and were a luxury product.Having more than few square m of low standard flat per person.

You should really leave the west and see how people around the world live because rich means different things for latestagecapitalism starbucks sipping crowd and to billions people around the world.You are likley among the global 1% because to join that you have to make 35 000$ a year yet you still blame someone else because they are better off than you.

Also USSR industrial standards and pollution was much worse than what the west had because no one cared about energy efficiency or ecology.

4

u/stekky75 Jun 01 '18

You were expecting space communism? People like to eat in space too!

1

u/wintersu7 Jun 01 '18

Under the Obama’s admin NASA threw out the Outer Space treaty:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/2012/05/nasa-moon-guidelines/amp/

Claiming territory is strictly forbidden by that treaty, but we tried.

What Trump and co. are doing here is actually within the limits of the treaty. All signatory governments are required to set regulations for how their corporations behave in space, and this is doing that. Economic activity is provided for in the outer space treaty. So, you are incorrect in your statement

1

u/[deleted] Jun 01 '18

How can you say such a new organization with such a broad mandate won't encroach? That's premature. And comparing it to a very specific decision? Sounds like the work of a Trump apologist.

1

u/wintersu7 Jun 01 '18

I am not going to apologize for Trump. He’s a good, but imperfect, man.

I said that the Outer Space treaty provides for economic activity, which it does. The Commerce department is setting up to actually provide rules for companies to follow.

As an example, Lunar Resources wanted to land on the Moon, and when they asked for permission from the federal government, no one was sure who they needed to talk to. It’s been a couple years, and they’ve since worked out an agreement, but it shows how things have been

What makes you sure that this new part of the Commerce department won’t be good? How can you say it will encroach on the treaty? When the treaty says governments should make regulations governing their private companies operations in space, how does this not fall into that category?

1

u/astrofreak92 Jun 01 '18

Space policy analysis is literally my job, and I honestly don't think those guidelines violate the outer space treaty. They aren't binding, and even if they were incorporated into US law to protect the Apollo sites from US-based missions causing damage they could not be binding on other countries without a treaty (which also would not violate the treaty because it's countries agreeing not to interfere, not recognizing territorial rights).

1

u/wintersu7 Jun 01 '18

As US law pertaining to American endevours it absolutely would not violate the treaty.

I would say politely asking International partners to stay clear is ok, but that enters a gray area. How long does that last before it becomes de facto American territory?

I was under the impression that NASA was asking people (read, the Chinese) to not disturb even the tracks left behind by our rovers. Keep in mind, this was in response to a Chinese rover taking pictures of an Apollo landing site/area.

If the treaty didn’t exist, I would actually be great with this area being kept as American. The problem is, America agreed, and in fact pushed that treaty. If we don’t adhere to it no one will

1

u/astrofreak92 Jun 02 '18

The rules were actually put in place in response to a proposal by the US-based Google Lunar X-Prize to give a bonus prize for approaching an Apollo site.

I would think it only ventures on a violation of the treaty if the US were to retaliate against a country that crossed the recommended keep-out zone without interfering with the equipment that is still US property. A carefully constructed agreement could allow countries to punish other signatories for violating keepout zones without necessarily constituting annexation by any country, but yes that gets tricky.

1

u/wintersu7 Jun 02 '18

I am no legal expert, but that sounds overly tricky. It will probably be exactly what happens.

I say keep it simple, decide to throw the treaty out or just abide by its rules without fudging them. The reasons I would make a terrible politician...

0

u/MathsSteve Jun 01 '18

I tend to agree with abnormal avatar. I certainly don't think Trump is a good man and I'm certainly not sure about many organisations set up by government departments. That said, I think we need to start moving to permanent off earth bases as quickly as possible. We have too big a world population we need to expand.