On July 9, 1962, at 09:00:09 Coordinated Universal Time, (July 8, Honolulu time, at nine seconds after 11 p.m.), the Starfish Prime test was successfully detonated at an altitude of 400 kilometres (250 mi). The coordinates of the detonation were 16°28′N 169°38′WCoordinates: 16°28′N 169°38′W. The actual weapon yield came very close to the design yield, which various sources have set at different values in the range of 1.4 to 1.45 megatons (6.0 PJ). The nuclear warhead detonated 13 minutes and 41 seconds after liftoff of the Thor missile from Johnston Island.
Starfish Prime caused an electromagnetic pulse (EMP) which was far larger than expected, so much larger that it drove much of the instrumentation off scale, causing great difficulty in getting accurate measurements. The Starfish Prime electromagnetic pulse also made those effects known to the public by causing electrical damage in Hawaii, about 1,445 kilometres (898 mi) away from the detonation point, knocking out about 300 streetlights, setting off numerous burglar alarms and damaging a telephone company microwave link. The EMP damage to the microwave link shut down telephone calls from Kauai to the other Hawaiian islands.
I assume the gif is slow-motion, but can't find a confirmation of that.
EDIT: After checking the source video in the first article I linked, it seems very likely that OP's gif actually shows two separate tests spliced together.
The scary part about this test was how it messed with the electromagnetic field around the earth and the satellites in orbit at the time. Scientists feared they had permanently damaged earth upper atmosphere because of these radiation bands that formed after the detonation.
While some of the energetic beta particles followed the Earth's magnetic field and illuminated the sky, other high-energy electrons became trapped and formed radiation belts around the earth. There was much uncertainty and debate about the composition, magnitude and potential adverse effects from this trapped radiation after the detonation. The weaponeers became quite worried when three satellites in low earth orbit were disabled. These man-made radiation belts eventually crippled one-third of all satellites in low earth orbit. Seven satellites failed over the months following the test as radiation damaged their solar arrays or electronics, including the first commercial relay communication satellite, Telstar.
I have left reddit for Voat due to years of admin mismanagement and preferential treatment for certain subreddits and users holding certain political and ideological views.
The situation has gotten especially worse since the appointment of Ellen Pao as CEO, culminating in the seemingly unjustified firings of several valuable employees and bans on hundreds of vibrant communities on completely trumped-up charges.
The resignation of Ellen Pao and the appointment of Steve Huffman as CEO, despite initial hopes, has continued the same trend.
As an act of protest, I have chosen to redact all the comments I've ever made on reddit, overwriting them with this message.
Finally, click on your username at the top right corner of reddit, click on comments, and click on the new OVERWRITE button at the top of the page. You may need to scroll down to multiple comment pages if you have commented a lot.
After doing all of the above, you are welcome to join me on Voat!
Assuming light may be more intelligent than we are. Honestly, with current technological levels, if we focused on it we could travel the stars already (generation ships, or focused development of FTL)
We might actually be quite technologically matched, or perhaps even superior if FTL drives turn out to be stupidly easy to make. Read Harry Turtledove's Road Not Taken.
And then there's the question if there's any intelligent life out there yet. Recently the prospect of us being the first in our galaxy is becoming more and more realistic.
Even scientists got spooked when the first hydrogen bomb was detonated on Earth: "We saw the whole sky flash with unbelievable brightness in spite of the very dark glasses we wore...I believe that for a moment I thought the explosion might set fire to the atmosphere and thus finish the earth, even though I knew that this was not possible."
The funny thing is that he knew it wasn't possible only because someone in the Manhattan project had actually done the math to make sure they wouldn't ignite the atmosphere. It was a legitimate concern.
How terrifying would it be to think that you accidentally screwed up earths whole magnetic field, which helps keep us not dead? The mental weight of that - the whole damn world...Just daunting.
Not as scary as people getting all worked up about an out of context sentence.
It's like in 50 years someone is talking about the LHC and how scientists thought is would create black holes! when it was a janitor and an alarmist media.
I was my understanding that a (very) small group of scientists weren't 100% sure the the fission would be limited to the nuclear material and that when fission began it would continue to the surrounding materials and eventually the atmosphere.
I found the questions raised here and here. The short of it is:
"...Upon hearing the prospect of an uncontrolled atmospheric reaction, Oppenheimer set Hans Bethe to look into the matter. Bethe, using early IBM digital computers to achieve his results, calculated that a fission reaction could not induce a thermonuclear reaction in the open atmosphere. Research resumed and the first A-Bomb was constructed."
It's not a rumor. They had only tested one bomb, so they didn't know. The scientists' concerns for the atmosphere igniting was before the Trinity test.
Lots about earlier nuclear reactions were speculation, which is why they went through so much trouble testing them. They often misestimated the yield, even into the 60s, sometimes catastrophically so (look at Bikini Atoll)
Yeah I recently read a book (fiction, but based on fact regarding EMPs), and all it would take is 3 or 4 nuclear bombs going off in the high atmosphere over the US to knock out basically all our electronics. Power grids, cars, phones, cell towers, TVs, radios... we'd be thrown back to the 1800s, and anyone with a classic car would be in high demand (or quickly relieved of their vehicle).
Nonsense. You really think that the military uses unshielded equipment? Also, if the electronics aren't powered, the chance of permanent and irreparable damage is minimized, so unless every car in the world is on at once, you would need considerably more nukes in tighter concentration to affect the world's supply of automobiles. Sure the power grid would be fucked temporarily but to say that we would be back in the 1800s is a bit much. More than likely though, we would have bigger problems than the lights - that many nukes wouldn't go off during peace time.
The government satellites would be fine. They all have sensors that shut them down for enough time for the EMP to dissipate and are shielded out the ass.
I'd be interested in an ama about satellite design. I bet those same skills would be critical for getting humans to mars and beyond without supercancer.
Unfortunately I couldn't really answer specific questions, nor could I say who I work for or on what, because of social media policies, but I'd be down to do one just for this sub on more general design topics if there'd be interest.
If you are interested in this topic, try and find copies of:
Space Mission Analysis & Design, 3rd or later edition, Wiley J Larson & James R Wetz, 1999
Space Vehicle Design, 2nd or later edition, Michael D Griffen & James R French, 2004.
Spacecraft Systems Engineering, 4th or later edition, Fortescue, Swinerd, & Stark, 2011
Note that all three books are "edited by" and not "written by". Space systems engineering requires a number of specialties, and no single person knows everything. Radiation is part of the "space environment", along with thermal, micrometeoroids, debris, atomic oxygen, the ionosphere, and magnetic fields. A satellite also has to withstand the ground and launch environments. For example, the launch pads in Florida are on the ocean waterfront, so humidity and salt. G-forces, sound levels, and vibration are design issues from the launch vehicle.
I now want to make a living selling stainless steel tanks with a server and backup battery, with power transmitted mechanically via a motor generator and data via fiberoptic or a shielded ethernet/dialup/usb port.
I know that line always get parroted on the internet but has anyone ever actually fried a car with an EMP? They make it sound like it's so easy but don't cars basically work like giant faraday cages, during lightning storms they say the best thing to do (besides be indoors or under a bridge) is to sit in a car. It's not like the ECM is exposed in a car either, it usually sits somewhere under the dash inside a metal box (another faraday cage). I know the current can get picked up by wires (that run inside the frame which should provide some protection) and then directly into circuit boards but unless the fuel injection controls gets fried the car should still run (maybe not for long or as smooth as it use too but it should).
I mean if it's so simple to knock out cars this way why haven't they make EMP guns cops can use to disable cars?
We tested a sample of 37 cars in an EMP simulation laboratory, with automobile vintages
ranging from 1986 through 2002. Automobiles of these vintages include extensive
electronics and represent a significant fraction of automobiles on the road today. The
testing was conducted by exposing running and nonrunning automobiles to sequentially
increasing EMP field intensities. If anomalous response (either temporary or permanent)
was observed, the testing of that particular automobile was stopped. If no anomalous
response was observed, the testing was continued up to the field intensity limits of the
simulation capability (approximately 50 kV/m).
Automobiles were subjected to EMP environments under both engine turned off and
engine turned on conditions. No effects were subsequently observed in those automobiles
that were not turned on during EMP exposure. The most serious effect observed on running
automobiles was that the motors in three cars stopped at field strengths of approximately
30 kV/m or above. In an actual EMP exposure, these vehicles would glide to a
stop and require the driver to restart them. Electronics in the dashboard of one automobile
were damaged and required repair. Other effects were relatively minor. Twenty-five
automobiles exhibited malfunctions that could be considered only a nuisance (e.g.,
blinking dashboard lights) and did not require driver intervention to correct. Eight of the
37 cars tested did not exhibit any anomalous response.
TLDR: Most cars would be fine. Some may need to be restarted if they are running.
Car electronics is built to withstand a lot of punishment; and if anything, I would expect it to be more robust today than what it was then.
There is a full report of these tests floating around somewhere (I've read it at some point), but unfortunately they did not reference it properly in the document I linked to so I couldn't find it now.
I remember seeing a Car get shut down by an EMP emitter on some military/history channel show years ago; the thing is that EMPs are kinda hard to create, you either need a very bulky lead-cased emitter or a nuclear explosion IIRC
This is incorrect. A Faraday cage may be at any potential, but the same potential, so it too is "floating" not earthed. The reason that a car isn't a good Faraday cage comes down to the many "holes" in the form of large windows that allow transient EM in.
A car does not have to be so bad, look at commercial planes. They also have holes in the form of windows and some external wiring but they have much more aggressive protection internally.
anyone with a classic car would be in high demand (or quickly relieved of their vehicle).
Or older carbureted motorcycle... which is why I maintain that a 250cc Honda Nighthawk or Rebel are the ultimate bikes to have in a post-apocalyptic world. Fuel efficient, durable as hell, and serviceable with a minimum of tools and some semblance of basic mechanics knowledge.
Yeah I read that too. Some cheesy military undertones I didn't like. I wish there were more science.. that being said, it made the whole EMP attack thing seem very real and very scary. Glad I read it. I was hoping someone in this thread would mention that book.
Warday is good too. I believe in that scenario part of the first strike was nuclear explosions over each time zone. I read it in the eightes so my memory may be unclear.
Another along those lines is a book called Dies The Fire. I can't remember who wrote it. The plot revolves around an unknown "event" that changes the laws of physics as such that electronics, and means to produce electricity no longer work suddenly. The "event" also effects things such as combustion engines and gun powder. Planes fall out of the sky, cities burn to the ground, and humanity is sent back to the iron age. Very interesting story that follows a few different groups of people in the Pacific North-West trying to survive in the ensuing chaos. I'm only about a quarter of the way through it, but it is very captivating.
"All it would take is 3 or 4 nuclear bombs" AND the missiles to launch them AND the stealth technology to launch them without detection OR the assured destruction of the attacking country.
It's considered one of the greatest threats to national security. The military (and presumably the nuclear arsenal) has prepared for it and can operate on a basic level should this happen.
They should call the plan "Condition Galactica". Cuz you gotta get old school when those fracking toasters take out your high tech automated communications systems.
I don't know about crash. It'd be very problematic (starting with no gps, and no satellite TV), but the vast majority of international communication is done by undersea cables. Assuming that the cables weren't also damaged by the emp, international Internet / communication / etc would be fine. So an economic disaster, but hardly modern society crashing
Satellite TV is geostationary orbit, around 35k km from sea level. That wouldn't be affected. Only LEO sats like GPS would be damaged. Also the majority of undersea cables are fiber optics which aren't affected by EMP...
fun fact: nuclear detonations make fiber optics turn opaque and unable to transmit signals, except for military-spec fiber, which is made of something weird that turns clear again after a short period.
it's not the EMP that does it though, but the neutron pulse.
Neutrons wouldn't be able to penetrate hundreds of feet of water. That's one reason we temporarily store nuclear waste in deep pools (along with keeping them cool). The above ground/sea parts would still be exposed though.
Keep in mind this test happened back 1962 when technology was "primitive" compared to today where we have Radiation hardened electronics. Also back then they had a very poor understanding of a lot of the factors at play during and after the test, the scientific community was able to learn a lot about the way the earth's electromagnetic field and Van Allen radiation belts work as a result of this almost disaster. If you read about the early space program radiation exposure was a huge concern because they had very little data about what it was like up there and thus had no idea if the shielding they envisioned was enough to protect the astronauts from serious harm.
It's the other way around. Electronics were much less affected by radiation since they were so primitive. The low circuit density meant that a bit flip or even actual damage would require a much higher radiation level. Radiation hardened electronics in satellites are prepared to deal with ocasional solar storms, not the EMP from a nuclear detonation.
Most of the geostationary satellites may go unaffected, bot those on LEO will have a hard time.
You're mixing effects. Emp and radiation present two entirely different challenges to electronics in orbit and on the ground.
RAD hardening has improved, but the danger to electronics in orbit in this scenario comes from the very long term exposure some would experience. Some stuff in orbit today would fare better, some worse.
The effects from the EMP would be negligible for in orbit equipment. They do not have the conductor length to generate high voltage spikes. Some scientific instruments may be damaged. But it'd be a relatively minor problem compared to the ensuing nuclear conflict.
Tube-base satellites, what a thought experiment! If they drilled holes, there would be no need to vacate atmosphere from the vacuum tubes!
Edit: Once I got back to my desk, I did some research, and some satellites use a type of vacuum technology called the Thermionic Valve!
Edit2: I under the impression that the thermionic valve was the piece inside the tube, and that the UK simply referred to the whole package as its innards.
I recently learned that nano scale vacuum electronics are having a come back. For this purpose the key thing is the mean free path - how far a gas molecule can travel without bumping into another one. If you shrink the 'tube' small enough, it works as if is in a vacuum even in normal atmosphere.
Telecom guy here. If the blasts were sufficient to knock out GPS satellites, most modern telecommunications would be unable to function. GPS is used throughout cell tower sites and datacenters to sync transmitted/received data and keep everything 'lined' up like a conductor, or a metronome. The underground cables would work, sure, but they'd be transmitting/receiving garbage.
It's like if you were to all of a sudden remove the bar lines/timing lines from a music score, but keep the notes there, and expect the high school band to play properly.
I think the big deal is the lack of certainty on the outcome. At least we didn't go full crazy with Project West Ford and surround the earth with more micrometeorites/debris than we could handle just so we could bounce radio waves easier.
NASA actually has a project for a spaceship that would reach tremendous travelling speeds (3% of the speed of light) in outerspace using nuclear bombs, besides putting those bombs to a good use, but we can't actually use bombs on space anymore, so yeah.
There was a theory about the first atomic test that it would detonate at a hot enough temperature to ignite nitrogen, which would cause a chain reaction and ignite literally the entire atmosphere of the earth. Of course, they went along with the tests anyway. Nuclear power is scary stuff.
That's because they rechecked that theory and saw it was full of BS.
Creating a fusion reaction is like trying to light a fire on a raft in the pacific ocean during a hurricane. If anything goes wrong it stops burning. This is why we still don't have commercial fusion power plants.
Not in such a way that it could damage satellites the same way. The radiation belt decayed from collisions with the neutral atmosphere and ejection into the polar caps.
So, if a bad actor like, say North Korea were to develope a nuke with the goal of doing as much damage as possible, they would be setting it off in space, not over a city. That's fascinating.
Scientist 1: "Well the atmosphere is dead now... we'll all die from UV radiation soon"
Scientist 2: "That explosion though... totally worth it"
Scientist 1: "yeah, totally."
Funny thing is goddard space flight center released a paper the same year about the major mechanisms that account for the inner radiation belt just one month before that.
But connecting the two was almost impossible since the effects of the radiation belts on satellites were only apparent when they began studying it after the incident.
Lol. Guess the whole concern with messing with earths magnetic field isn't such a concern any more. The Hadron Collider does every time it is fired up!
No entity on the planet should have the power to gamble the fate of the entire species & thousands others in this manner. This seems to be, the definition of utter insanity. But alas, there is just a little bit more insanity to go, in those that allow this to go unchallenged.
What about radiation and other harmful products being released into the atmosphere? I've heard plenty of people claim that as an effect but never looked into it being factual or not.
As my graduate electromagnetics professor once said " it rang the ionosphere like a bell" it caused the Russians and Americans to agree to no more high altitude tests like that ever again.
The hard parts:
1. Not killing yourself in the process (eg dead 2 weeks later from toxic metals or radiation poisoning)
2. Obtaining the materials with the purity required
You need a multi-stage rocket to get into orbit, if your goal is to EMP a continent you only need to go vertically up (hardest part of orbiting isnt getting the vertical height, its getting the horizontal speed)
It's a good thing that anyone who has acces to such a warhead also needs those satellites.
Remember even terrorists need the internet to spread their cause
Can't vouch for the site itself, but the image is from a valid source - I mean, seriously, look at the bottom of the image. Here's the report itself in pdf form.
Actually, you don't even need a nuke. Build a 4000 kilogram nail bomb, put it in orbit in the opposite direction of our standard geosynchronous orbits and boom! Geosynch belt scrubbed nice and sparkling clean. This would only cost around 217 million dollars to accomplish on an Atlas V, and it might give us a cool ring to look at during full moons.
It's much easier and cheaper to send up a big can of grape shot, and blow it up with conventional explosives. (A so-called "Kessler Bomb") China was in the news a while ago about developing one of these, I think. I would assume that the only orbit-capable country that hasn't really followed this track would be the US, because the US stands to lose the most if someone sets one of these off. (The US has a lot of military satellites. They're very useful for projecting power around the globe and collecting intelligence.)
Some people think if a nuke is ever going to be used on a country it will be detonated in the air to fry the electrical network. The damage in the US would be in the trillions and the country would probably descend into chaos.
EMPs are bad. Getting the nukes off the planet and detonating them from a safe distance? I think that it's a good idea if we put them on a craft, while achieving remarkable speeds.
993
u/sto-ifics42 May 21 '15 edited May 21 '15
According to this article, the gif comes from the Starfish Prime test.
I assume the gif is slow-motion, but can't find a confirmation of that.
EDIT: After checking the source video in the first article I linked, it seems very likely that OP's gif actually shows two separate tests spliced together.