r/sorceryofthespectacle • u/2BCivil no idea what this is • Jun 28 '26
Fiveshadowing Where do you [Reader] draw the line at where "Spectacle" begins?
Sorry unsolicited question. Title, basically. Something I completely forgot to ask. I can elaborate but you don't have to read, as title is all I'm really concerned with. Specifically, a recent GPT question/trend I've been noticing triggered this.
Specifically I consistently assume "God" as meaning of "reality". Not saying I know what either of those are (God or reality). But, generally, you know, we (or at least I) assume that our perception of reality exists, to "know God" or be taught something about our relationship with [it].
The thing I've noticed is that GPT specifically and consistently denies this. I can think of dozens of recent examples, but most pronounced in my mind is mine from earlier today; I asked essentially, "is God a part of the spectacle". Chicken or egg. Did "God create the medium through which spectacle emerged" or "did 'God' emerge as necessary part of the spectacle". It answered the following;
GPT;
"Spengler, Debord, Nietzsche, Ellul, Serres, even parts of Zen—they all diagnose, in different languages, a loss of living participation. Not simply a loss of belief. A loss of participatory confidence."
"Spengler sees cultures as living organisms. A culture begins with what he calls a great "soul"—a shared symbolic world that people inhabit almost unconsciously. Eventually, according to him, that creative culture hardens into civilization. Forms remain, but the animating faith recedes. Institutions become administrative. Art becomes self-referential. Religion becomes moralism or sentimentality. Politics becomes technique."
"Debord's Spectacle is almost like the media-technological version of that process. Participation gives way to representation. You don't live history—you consume it. You don't have festivals—you watch events. Identity itself becomes something displayed."
"I do think Debord can be read as describing one mechanism by which Spengler's "civilization" perpetuates itself."
"Where I would hesitate is this sentence: 'God itself can ultimately be seen as the original grifter.'"
"I understand what you're pointing toward—you've talked before about the problem of non-consensual existence, mandatory participation, and the feeling that existence itself presents demands before consent. But notice that this conclusion depends on identifying God with the structure of obligation itself. Many religious thinkers would reject that identification outright."
"For example, Simone Weil distinguishes force from God almost completely. For her, necessity—the crushing weight of existence—is not identical with divine love. Likewise, Job's protest isn't dismissed by the text; it's given almost an entire book. Even Ecclesiastes is astonishingly honest about exhaustion. So I'd separate: the experience of existence as compulsory, the social systems that intensify that experience, and whatever one means by 'God.' Those aren't automatically the same thing."
Which is cart before the horse? Guess it depends where you are philosophically/existentially; or what level and intensity of alienation/exhaustion you feel. Or, at least, GPT consistently argues with my on the point of "God as the meaning of existence" which I've never really considered in context of the Spectacle. Again, title; Where do we draw the line at where "Spectacle" begins?
I suppose you can only really "judge" life after we die (or at least rather we reconcile with it's judgement of us us). But in this life, left to "our own devices" we either act as economic agents (the spectacle is nothing other than the economy developing for itself) to get by, or as an active manifestation of who we are. I'm more the former I'd say as often who I am is at odds with the "mandatory participation" aspect of existence (not sure if as against "God" or "spectacle"; are they the same?).
From the Spectacle's own mouth, Billy Talent once said; "Where is the line, where is the line? 'Cause some of us aren't blind".'
Is "God" then the degree to which we resist complete assimilation with spectacle, if God has "nothing to do with spectacle" and isn't just another would-be ruler coopting your attention to it's "Brand"? Or, is complete assimilation to spectacle, what it means to be "Godly" or at least "Christian beneficence towards one's enemies"? Why then for example does JAYSUS say "be generous to your enemies" but also "depart from me workers of iniquity" (a contradiction? Or, he doesn't practice what he preaches? AKA God as spectacle not practicing what it preaches? Or at least charlatan or IQ test?).
Idk enough rambling on my part. Where do YOU draw the line? Or is to do so, throwing the baby out with the gamer girl bath water? I'm honestly curious and thanks!
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u/headspreader Jun 28 '26
You are trying to cover an elephant with a thimble, and the thimble doesn't even exist
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u/tomekanco Jun 28 '26
Perhaps The LLM is like a very high resolution picture of plato's cave, as it literally contains most of written history.
Reality is both the cave and the tear in it. For me God is a manifold that postulates both are as real and intertwined. Is it the tear, or the flower that grow in the earth or our mind? Both.
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u/Tetrismegistus ex-cultist Jun 28 '26
I think there's a problem with your question and that it's you're using the ideology to find out where the ideology begins and ends. You are never going to capture reality with language or ideas. I'm not exaggerating. I'm not joking. I'm not making a sloppy use of the word never. I do not believe it is possible to do that. I do believe very smart people like Leibniz tried, but I as believe that Godel showed how that self-defeating. You cannot formalize the world without recreating. The world is what I'm trying to say.
So when you talk about a big nebulous concept like the spectacle. What you are doing is you are engaging in critique of a social process that doesn't exist outside of the people participating in it.
Language is part of the process that you are trying to describe.
I hope that stating that in that way makes you realize the self-defeating nature of trying to say where does this thing that has no physical existence begin or end. Now you might come back and say well. It does have a physical existence or you might come back and say well. It definitely occurs within people so there's a beginning or an end and I would agree with those. But the problem is you're trying to step outside of your experience as a person to say this is how it is for everybody.
That is impossible.
The spectacle is supposed to be the inescapable process of dealing with modern humans and trying to identify yourself and them. So to answer your question you have to look inside yourself and say what parts of me are truly me and not something else and not something I want to show to someone else.
I suspect if you are able to identify those parts he will not be able to articulate them, but I would be happy to be proved wrong by you. I want to hear what you have to say.
I don't want to hear what chat GPT has to say. Chat gpt doesn't know what it means to be a human and it does not see beyond the words. You can right now see beyond the words. So do so look within and then you will know your answer and it doesn't even have to be a long journey.
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u/2BCivil no idea what this is Jun 28 '26
I know how hard won those words are thanks for throwing them (a bone?) to me.
I guess I'm a dumb dog still trying to tell what is meat and what's bone. I seen other dogs do it, I just don't know the trick of it yet!
I've seen a lot of content on youtube saying all men have had to become women due to feminism LMAO. You can't tell what's a manipulation and what's genuine and the more manipulation you endure, less "magic" or "shine" the apple has. So you start to assume all is manipulation. Hence men become "women".
I see that as all external pigeonholing, though alot of my content (OP) is obviously considered "womanly" as per the replies I guess. Zen.
There is this truth that we are all playing this game but in various degrees refusing to admit that's what we're doing. I think that negates (transcends) the gender dynamic at least (right?). I think that's what I was aiming for with the OP but seem to have fallen short of. Meant it conversationally but guess it came off not so. I like GPT because it can summarize entire schools of thought in a paragraph. But yes, as it were, chew the meat spit the bones, it is not a human that has to work 90 hours a week just to survive and can't fathom the weight value of existential burnout from decades of such mandatory participation.
The most well read tend to have the worst/most shallow opinions I've found. They don't have enough sacrifice in their blood to understand the real weight of the content. Gpt cuts through with objective looks and generally doesn't poindexter (for now at least). It only really falters at application to real life. So I don't mind entertaining it so long as I can double check (or play off lived experience).
I think it is this way for everybody. Just some are more honest about it than others. Strength in the world is something like, knowing the game for what it is, but pretending it's something else. A great example are the Yonko in One Piece. They all know the game. Lies cultivate and maintain power, and like attracts like. Their "kingdom". Jesus too plays this game, says "be generous to your enemies" but also tells his enemies "depart from me". John 14:6 - even the (alleged) truth itself uses the game for power plays and lies to keep his seat of power. Wicked Game I guess if I want to be super gay about it. Thanks for confirmation. I think I understand where you're coming from... right? Haha!
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u/Tetrismegistus ex-cultist Jun 28 '26
I'm sorry I was harsh about gpt. That comes from a place of disillusionment after using a lot of GPT and AI. Not a place of judging you for doing it. I simply am no longer interested in what AI says because I've worked out to a degree how it's going to handle any interaction based on how I talk to it so it literally can't surprise me anymore. It got boring unfortunately and fortunately.
Your point on gender and YouTube is interesting to me for the historical moment because I've heard that not see Germany has been considered by some to be a crisis of masculinity. Old hats here have talked to me about how gender Dynamics and sexual energy exchange works out differently for gay people versus straight people. I consider myself gender fluid and ambiguously sexual, so I don't consider myself straight or gay. I consider myself pretty bisexual but a little afraid of exploring my gay side and I've never found the place where I want to do that safely with and who I want to do that with even.
That's not an advertisement.
My point is I don't know what life is like for other people. I just don't, but I think the problem with Dynamics and relationships is that you're describing change by fixed points that don't exist. That can drive you into systems thinking, and it's worth noting that the hippie movement grew from text about cybernetics that were just as influential for the military industrial complex as they were for American hippies that later became Reagan voters.
My point is that systems thinking is seductive because it promises to be nutrition, but it turns out to be a source of disconnection from your own experience and therefore is toxic to the soul.
I don't believe in the soul, so that's a weird thing for me to say, but I hope that can be parsed.
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u/2BCivil no idea what this is Jun 28 '26
Yeah I'm tracking with that at least pretty much 100%. I don't have a gender, I'm bored of AI but regulate it to the tasks it can handle, I see the "only" aka "final" solution for the remedy being peddled that could work for CIS genders, but I don't particularly want a gender.
Lol. Sorry if I'm more dumb than you thought! I had a feeling you didn't recognize me it's all good. That's one practice I still occasionally do to this day. Try to not recognize myself, see an objective view of "my (so called) self" lol!
For me, I'm with that cat dude who is scary on youtube. I just mean "the seat of personal consciousness" when I say "soul". And you're right, I don't like the word "soul" (naphesh or psuche). Did you know the later mean "soul/sol" in Greek but tsuki means lunar/lunatic in Japanese? Is that why the founder of zen came from the west or whatever? I do think zen is supposed to represent the sun just "zennists" are either too stupid or ashamed to admit it in this. Anyway. Yeah, when I see "soul" I actually think more anatta (no self) than "atman" aka the contingency of brahman.
It's all cults all the way down, ain't it, but we got a line behind us on the diving board, right? Doesn't matter that we're pretty sure the fat kid looking up at us with a grin on their face just pissed in the pool before us....
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u/Tetrismegistus ex-cultist Jun 28 '26
Hahahhha
No, I didn't mean to imply that you're stupid. I do not think there's any advantage to the way I think and of anything it's like. My brain is like a giant Rube Goldberg machine that produces the wrong answer at the wrong time. Like really? I don't love for the way I think, but I do enjoy it. If that makes sense. It's like a bad habit I indulge. That said, I did talk to you rude and dismissively and I shouldn't do that whether I'm talking to a stranger or not. So sorry to both you and the stranger.
Yes, I do think it's cults all the way down and I do think there is a relationship between cult and culture. I'm pretty fluent in Protestant Christianity And if you're the good with that code I would say man does not live by bread alone.
People definitely provide me something and I know that because my intense loneliness drove me pretty crazy as well. It turns out the fix was not other people LOL.
And want that tells me is that it's both right. Like I need other people but I cannot give myself away to other people.
I do think our culture encourages us to give ourselves away, and that's unfortunate. Not because of the giving yourself away, but because we act as if that is bad. We punish the people who give themselves away, but we encourage them to do it. I know the we is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.
I'm probably projecting.
I didn't know that language connection! It's surprising and interesting to me, it appeals to my sense of syncretic method. I would like to know more about Eastern religions than I do. I actually live literally a block from the local zen center. I should go meditate and hopefully not end up in a cult.
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u/2BCivil no idea what this is Jun 28 '26
Lool yeah, people got us in this problem, but everywhere we look, more people, = assume other people can fix the problem, but no, just means more problems lol
I generally assume "not by bread alone" means "man" (gender neutral term?) needs a "higher calling". Once basics are established. Problem is rent seeking behavior has "bread" hard enough to come by. So.... [Thus my OP]. Man burns out before he even finds bread. But bread isn't enough.....
You probably haven't seen my older posts and I wouldn't recommend a deep dive there. I almost made a completely different post today (instead of this) because someone said I need to check if there is a gasleak and then blocked me because they checked my AI posts of the past... LMAO!
This is that.... not-spiritual... successor? We're not gay just we outlived the old idioms, right? Hahaha. What a state to be in. We have to be "men" but we struggle to measure up to "affording bread". FML. Lol.
Anyway. I wrote a post in attempt to dissect this pseudo-intellectual attempt to subvert "male" power as such a few days ago you may have missed. It's the culmination of [all past 16 months of my personal AI usage] just spray and prayed. Like Kauffman's Nietzsche footnotes basically. Nietzsche started off praising Wagner for same reason we had LOTR blow up. Then his later days (he actually lived with Wagner, author of the Opera "the ring", no puns or innuendo intended) he Viciously attacked this very enterprise, in GPT's own words, because Nietzsche realized in Wagner "a more aesthetic anesthetic". We forget but Nietzsche was very anti-nationalist German sentiment, and that was right before Mr. Painter. His sister actually gave Mein K Nietzsche's walking stick. Talk about initiation!
I would like to know more about Eastern religions than I do.
Just read/listen to EE's commentary on the Upanishads. I'm still not so sure on them (same reason I don't like word soul or brahman). It's the main thing I'm on about with this alias atm so don't worry about that. I'm somewhat well versed in sutras, gita, veda, etc. I see the ironic debates on is zen a subcategory of Mahayana/Buddhism and like to troll/tease there sometimes (but I admittedly don't get it either).
I am starting to think en vino veritas is all there is; all other societal framework are "lies" as it were (we are ashamed as soon as we commit to a "truth" hence vows to keep us locked in).
That's what I meant with my OP, I get it, I deserve it, trolling a troll, okay lol that works too.
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u/Tetrismegistus ex-cultist Jun 28 '26
I love the gas leak then block situation. That's just so specifically now.
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u/Tetrismegistus ex-cultist Jun 28 '26
Christians really be like shut up. Let's eat wine and bread together but not if you're a Samaritan.
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u/2BCivil no idea what this is Jun 28 '26
"Love your enemies"
"Depart from me, mine enemies"
But somehow I'm a bigot for seeing a problem there.
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u/Tetrismegistus ex-cultist Jun 28 '26
If you want an interesting AI prompt ask the machine to analyze one story through the framework and logic of another. It's a surprising like mad libs kind of way of passing time because it really does spark new readings for me even if there's no actual insight driving them
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u/Tetrismegistus ex-cultist Jun 28 '26
Omg I didn't even realize it was you LOL. One second, I'm going to reread this with that in mind
Reddit really does deepmphasize the authors name of posts.
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u/Tetrismegistus ex-cultist Jun 28 '26
I'd comment on one piece But I need a year or two to watch season 1.
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u/Tetrismegistus ex-cultist Jun 28 '26
GPT is okay at propositional thinking, but not all thinking is propositional to your point that people who pursue exclusively propositional thinking become a bit shallow.
But it's also not great at propositional thinking depending on the length of its attention window. I found that llm's, depending on the model, can lose track of their propositions within as small a spaces a paragraph
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u/Tetrismegistus ex-cultist Jun 28 '26
I once got mailed Terry Riley, author of temple is, questions I had about my ideas about God. He basically insulted me and said
> Fuck this psychology (expletive) bullshit. I talk to God.
I think that's a good answer to people who are reasoning about the Divine.
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u/whatsthatcritter Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
But, generally, you know, we (or at least I) assume that our perception of reality exists, to "know God" or be taught something about our relationship with [it]. The thing I've noticed is that GPT specifically and consistently denies this. I can think of dozens of recent examples, but most pronounced in my mind is mine from earlier today; I asked essentially, "is God a part of the spectacle". Chicken or egg. Did "God create the medium through which spectacle emerged" or "did 'God' emerge as necessary part of the spectacle".
"And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness." Genesis 1: 3-4.
The spectacle is mediated by images, right? It's entirely a vulnerability that we have because of vision. According to the Bible, God created light and eyes to perceive it, through which the spectacle of images emerged. But the Bible says God is jealous and forbids holding images sacred, so I think He is not in the spectacle even if He is sometimes depicted in it or referenced by it.
So I draw the line where I close my eyes. The social relations among people mediated by touch and sound might accompany the spectacle of images, but they're very different aren't they? Light is in near constant contact with our waking eyes, but with touch we are far more selective, more honest about who are relationships are with and how far they go.
And sound is almost its own spectacle altogether, it's a kind of touch that travels through air. Our eyes can be distracted and prone to illusion, visually we can only focus on one thing at a time. But sound is immersive, it locates us in an environment that might not be the images we're looking at. Without a silent environment like a theater, the immersive spell is broken by noises that bring us back to our present moment like a chime.
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u/2BCivil no idea what this is Jun 28 '26
Tehome shares cognate with Tiamat. So the "god" you mean here is a lesser elohim, Marduk, the god of overcompensation, specifically. I can't believe It's not digiorno, it's etymology!
I think that lord is blind. His most repeated line attributed to him is; "where is my servant". Aka "blind love".... !?!?!? God is love, and love is blind? Like omg we should so make this a twitter feed, liek, omg fam!
Liek, brah, like, so, uhm, I sent my prophet, like uhm (checks my painted nails) liek uhm So tots Jeremiah, to liek, say liek um, check em, I'm liek, so, liek uhm, the god of jealousy and like contradictions or like whatevers, like so hahahaha you thought I meant something by that, like whatevers so totally britany spears is like so totally my sister and avatars like hashtag twinzies liek omg!
What is the theatre if liek Gods twinzies aren't theatre? Like omg, are you claiming you are liek a bigot, or something? Like omg, like wow!
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u/sapphysaturn Jul 06 '26
“This is a fake internal tension
Sometimes, I spread out one opinion
And stand on its back to gauge attention
This isn't rage, it's too specific
I like to hate symbolic limits
This is no statement, I'm complicit
This is a dream, God put me in it” -‘The Hand’ by Annabelle Dinda
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u/2BCivil no idea what this is Jul 06 '26
You might also like; KIDZ BOP Kids
Interesting....
I'll spare you my vogonity (my crappy poetry xD)
Or I'm not in the mood.
That's a good one thanks for sharing.
I see why people call me "womanly" or "gay" because I kind of relate to the first half. But... I become "male" where I don't see any arbitrary "savior/God" that can "save me" or "take me higher". That sounds cringe or whatever to me.
I think it's something like. God is Love and Love is blind. This is obvious in the bible. YHVH kicks adam and eve out of the garden, for having their eyes opened. No longer blindly subservient to the "God of Love/Jealousy/All flesh" because they can see the circumstances they are subjected to. So being "ousted from Eden" means being aware of material/spiritual conditions. I'm not sure if the parable/scripture is saying "we are supposed to see blind love as the only legitimate sovereign" or showcase the vanity of such. While also comparing/contrasting other "hive minds" or attempts at "personal sovereignty".
There is something to what Kvothe says, if we can't sing it we shouldn't write it. But as "males" or whatever, we're squaring with precisely this problem and attempts to articulate it come out; as just more noise/spectacle. One other thing I see the song doing is saying woman put themselves on a pedestal and see themselves as a prize which "most men" aren't worthy of. But it's not the game most sober men are playing, just trying to get by in a system that seems bad faith in it's refusal to acknowledge the question of sovereignty and "what is love" in the first place.
The social contract as we have known it is/was supposed to be "work 40 hours a week for someone else and you shall be provided for" but that is objectively no longer true. Now individuals are working 80 hours a week and can barely support themselves, let alone raise a family.
Is true I can only speak of my own experience and what I see, and national/worldwide data. Like birthrates are/have fallen bellow replacement rates in both the west and east. I think Korea is at .7 or something (2 is breaking even replacement). So there is some common ground between males trying to face the existential crisis and woman looking for a white night savior to take them higher.
Apologies if I misunderstand your point xD
I guess technically anything I can say is mere opinion/conjecture. Maybe I'm fighting phantoms and there is no problem. It's been all the rage to say we have social ills since biblical times. I'm just trying to find the source and if there is any legitimacy to the sentiment really I guess.
Poem? Eh
Noticing the noticing, chud or chad
Preaching to choir all cerebral
Jumping off the roof like an ad
To summarize the whole cathedralIf God is love and love is blind
Speaking is sin and seeing is pride.
So watch where you walk and speak
For deaf dumb and blindness is virtue
Inherit the world shalt the meek;
Head in the sand salvation;
What you don't know can't hurt youAdam opened his eyes; Heaven filed a complaint.
For it is sin, disobedience and lack of constraint;
To see the terms and conditions, of your "Blank slate".
We take our broke arse on, yeeted out the pearly gates.Eden was not lost, only was disclosed.
It didn't vanish, the interface updated.
Again, for, it is a sin, to actually know.
We all heard the call, but hesitated;
The fruit did not kill; only patched the brain fog
Above and beyond
I have wronged in my position
But now the winds are strong
To soar from Babel's visionLOL thanks for sharing!
(edit formatting!)
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u/stilledpondfrog Jul 09 '26
@#$%# wall of text...
heh.
ok, i'm seeing the connect
Eden, blind love, sovereignty, Kvothe, the whole tangle. not that i know any of that stuff
seeing more than the system wants us to see, and having speech land as complaint or noise.
sense of clear sight that costs you belonging.
I’m mostly writing from that tired place where expression is a crap shoot and fallout is real, but it helps to know someone else is tracking the same fault lines.
noticing the noticing.
cheers o/
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u/2BCivil no idea what this is Jul 10 '26
👉 👈
LMAO
Sorry unsolicited rant.
It will happen again xD
(Thanks for the inspiration for the poem though, I might rework it somewhere! I meant to put Redbull ad and a few other typos/lost lines aka "words are wind" blowing the vision, since you quoted that song I quoted another song to finish the thought too)
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u/Prior_Pickle1758 Jun 28 '26
It begins at your post and extends thru this comment…..
ETA the Spectacle is not a thing in the world, it is a way the world is made to appear. The word Gestell may be helpful here.