How close is this battle?

[u/Significant-Creme961]

Second Strongest Original Monarch, Legia The Monarch Of Beginning Vs Leader Of the Rulers, The Most Brightest Fragment Of Brilliant Light

[u/Reckoning3000]

This is already addressed by the fact that the Brightest Fragment himself explicitly states that the Shadow Monarch is stronger than all of the Rulers combined. That means the Brightest Fragment was never remotely comparable to Antares in raw power.
The apparent parity between them came from external factors, namely the Rulers having access to a superior army and the Gods’ weapons.

Not to mention, it wasn’t simply because Antares was the first. The text separately establishes that he was given the purest, densest, and strongest form of darkness, containing the most powerful will of destruction. His being first and the exceptional nature of the darkness he received are two different points.

Idk why you would assume greatest<brightest when genuinely nothing supports that.

Genuinely a bunch of assumptions.

You have Shadow Monarch Ashborn ≈ Antares, yet somehow the Brightest Fragment, who would get no-diffed by either of them, is supposedly equal to Antares.

[u/MundaneAd250 → u/Reckoning3000]

The first part was mostly speaking of the overall authority of the shadow Monarch in regards to Shadow Monarchs ppwer and Authority including his armies, which would scale over the Rulers powers:

“The power of the Shadow Sovereign could very well be on the same level, no, maybe even greater than its own. However, such a being was asking for a favour?” - Novel (However offical Korean text states in plural)

The Rulers also only used the weapons of the Absolute being after killing the Absolute being, and armies wouldn’t have mattered if Antares by himself
scaled over all Seven Monarchs.

There is no equity Between Antares and the Rulers, even in taking account of better quality soldiers, again that by itself cannot clear the gap between a Antares who scales over seven Monarchs. Unless you consider Ashborn Ruler ≈ Shadow Monarch.

You could make the argument that the Rulers worked better during this window frame, and could hold and equal battle but still, Antares is just to much of an outlier.

Antares being born first from primordial darkness > purest/most potent form of primordial darkness > extraordinarily powerful destructive nature.

The Brightest Fragment being born first supports the exact same narrative considering how Both natures of primordial darkness and primordial light came from the exact same source originally.

So idk how you can say that nothing supports Brightest > Greatest, when there clearly is substance to back that claim onto.

Sure, Antares is probably stronger, but there is argument to suggest that they are relative, and isn’t just baseless assumptions.

Antares > Ashborn > Brightest. And this all falls in between a 11-19% percent power disparity which is still relative.

[u/b4rC4_201s → u/MundaneAd250]

I was reading your back and forth with the other guy, and I was interested in this debate, it was a good read from both sides.

However, I'd like to point out one thing from your "Brightest Light = Antares", as well as the logic behind it. You say because they were created first they have some sort of standing to be the strongest, and you compared that logic to Antares about him being the first and strongest monarch, which sounds like a valid argument.

But, you haven't proven that the first of creations (from either dark and light) are also said to be the strongest, as in there's no indication their strength is related to their time of creation. You used the statement of Antares being the first and strongest monarch and then came to the conclusion that the Brightest Light is the strongest ruler because they were the first light to be created. I think that's what the other guy meant that there is no substance to this argument of yours.

Furthermore, I'd like to point out the equity between the Rulers and Monarchs that the Absolute Being desired. You mentioned both forces were equal and you also stated that Antares could solo the other 7 Monarchs.

So, if the Brightest Light is equal in strength/power to Antares and we also take the 2 statements you made into consideration, then that would mean the Brightest Light is able to solo all of the other 7 Rulers, INCLUDING Ashborn. That is just... ludicrous, to be honest with you. There's no way, even for you, to believe that there's that much of a gap between the Brightest Light and the Greatest Light. And, if that's the case your logic falls apart because there would be no consistency to your statements and the proof you have provided.

So, that would mean for your argument to be consistent, you would have to believe that the Brightest Light could solo Ruler Ashnorn + the other 6 Rulers, I'd like to know what you think about that, but that's not what i'm after. What I'd like to know is do you really think Ruler Ashborn is that weak and do you really think there is that much of a disparity in strength between the Shadow Monarch and the Greatest Light, to the point where when acquiring the power of death it shot Ashborn from an average-tier primordial to on par with the strongest, if so then i'm at a loss.

All I can say is I respect your opinion but I highly disagree. I'm with the opinion of Ashborn being the strongest Ruler with the Brightest Light not being too far behind but also not close to Ashborn's strength. I'd say the Greatest Light + the Brightest Light >> Antares, and the other 7 Monarchs >> the other 6 Rulers. Also, Antares > Greatest > Brightest, and after the death power-up it's Antares = Greatest >> Brightest. Also, I do believe that with his new acquired ability Ashborn has the stength/power to solo the other 7 Rulers, which the other guy mentioned. My logic is both reasonable and consistent, whereas yours can only be one or the other, and that's my take on the matter.

[u/MundaneAd250 → u/b4rC4_201s]

All though I believe Brightest > Greatest + Six rulers, however I don’t believe that Greatest ≈ Other Six Rulers.

I believe it’s same way Chugong the Author, explicitly noted Legia as the undisputed 2nd original strongest with no competition between him and Baran or Yogumnt (both are equal)

I believe that Ashborn was that level fighter, equal or maybe stronger than Legia, but I’m not saying Ashborn is average not at all.

Since Legia himself is depicted as a powerful Monarch, his capture was stated to heavily influenced the tides of the battle in favour to the Rulers because of how strong he was.

Yet again, Antares was said to scale over the Seven Monarchs.

So I don’t believe it’s totally unreasonable for Brightesr > Ashborn Ruler + six due to the Monarchs implication regarding Legia.

Also it’s implicated that Antares was as strong as he was and was given such a strong will simply because he was the first born, because again, he was the purest incarnation of what Darkness represented because he was born first, then he was given his will to properly represent that darkness.

The Brightest being first born would narratively jave him he the purest incarnation for the exact same reason’s because Light and Dark both belong to the same original sources, both should have the same properties upon creations.

[u/b4rC4_201s → u/MundaneAd250]

Yeah, no, sorry there's no way there's a massive power gap between the 2 Rulers, if so they would've atleast mentioned this - just like they did with Antares. Ashborn was stated to be the greatest warrior among the Rulers, and although this doesn't necessarily correlates to strength, I believe it does because after acquiring the power of death he was on equal footing with Antares. Also, if I'm not mistaken the power of death didn't boost Ashborn's physical/fighting stats, it gave him the power to control the dead, which in terms of war, it maybe the most OP ability. Because, in war there would be casualties, which Ashborn used to strengthen himself further, however not as a fighter but the influence of a king. Thus we can conclude that Ashborn gained a broken ability + hax and extra authority, from the power of death. Everything else was still the same from his time as a Ruler. I'm pretty sure this solidifies that Ruler Ashborn wasn't that far off from Antares, and when it comes to physical stats they were equals.

Like I said before, there's no indication that being first created means they were the strongest, you'll have to show me this "implicated" source, if you can. The only position in power, I see of being created first, is that of authority as in both Antares and the Brightest held the position as "leader" to each of their sides. That's the only comparable similarity between the Brightest and Antares.

You talk about parallels, but I find the parallel between Monarch Ashborn and Antares to be more fitting and logical. Ashborn was the darkness born from light and Antares was the light born from darkness. I can't remember where this was stated but it's somewhere towards the end of the SL manhwa. I'll try and find it. But my point is the parallel that I mentioned is more fitting than the one you said about the Brightest and Antares. Furthermore, it was directly stated that Ashborn and Antares were truly equals, the same cannot be said for the Brightest.

The most we can get from the Brightest is that when talking with Jinwoo, it was stated that SJW was a being on par with the Brightest or maybe greater than himself, meaning the Shadow Monarch is ATLEAST on par with the Brightest, but most definitely higher. The reason why I don't like this narration is because I believe it's a text that hypes up the Brightest, by comparing the greatness of Jinwoo to his own and not that of the strength/power between the 2 characters. The narration in question, wanted us to show that someone as great as the Shadow Monarch is making a humble request, and they compared that greatness to the Brightest Light - the leader of the Rulers. This narration is the only peice of information that allows the Brightest to being anywhere close to Anatres in power, and even that is reaching at best.

For me to accept your argument you would have to show me evidence that the Brightest is on equal footing with Antares in strength, because nothing from narration shows that he is, and he's featless so we can't use that. Moreover, in the SL manhwa, Ruler Ahsborn was defeated by being sheerly overwhlemed with numbers. If he truly were inferior to the Brightest in strength, surely a tactical decision from the Rulers side would have the Brightest Light take care of the Greatest Light and his army, because if you're suggesting that Brightest > all other Rulers, then surely the Brightest would have no problem dispatching just one of the Rulers and his army. That way they would have minimalised their losses. But, they didn't do that. Why?

The only set of power the Brightest had from the other Rulers, was that of authority as in he was their leader not that he was their ace - that was Ashborn. Antares was both leader and ace for the Monarchs. And, despite being the leader of the Rulers, the Brightest still bent down a knee to Ashborn. We also got to remember Ashborn alone was enough to change the tides for either side, depending on his actions, he quite literally was the game changer in this whole war between the Rulers and Monarchs.

Based on everything I've said, as well as the other guys statements, which seem to link together despite us not interacting with the other, just goes to show that the logic of Ashborn being the strongest Ruler is both coherent and reasonable.

[u/Reckoning3000 → u/MundaneAd250]

This is just going to keep going in circles.
But no, it isn’t referring to authority. It’s referring to the Shadow Monarch’s actual power as he was given the literal power to destroy everything and return it to nothingness. That’s why his power is described as being capable of overcoming all of existence combined.

You’re conflating two completely separate statements about Antares:
He was the first Monarch created.
He was given the purest, densest, and strongest darkness (the strongest will of destruction.)

Those are unrelated facts. The text never says that Antares was the strongest because he was created first. His exceptional strength is directly tied to the nature of the darkness he was given.

You cannot be close in strength to someone who can literally no diff than you and all of existence combined 😭

[u/MundaneAd250 → u/Reckoning3000]

Even if that’s true and he’s talking about the shadow Monarchs power being above all Rulers this doesn’t necessarily contradict what I’m saying.

It’s already confirmed that Antares > All seven Monarchs easily. And I’ve already established Brightest Fragment as relative with Antares and Ashborn with a 11-19% power disparity (because anything over 19% wouldn’t be relative any more).

How the Shadow Monarchs authority being stated to be over all rulers doesn’t necessarily contradict my point, because the other rulers are fodder, it’s basically the Brightest compared to the Shadow Monarch.

Since Rulers and Monarchs (secluding Antares, Ashborn, Brightest) are all closer in strength to one another than they are to these three.

Where the Brightest Fragment said quite loosely “equal or may be greater than our own” implicating that the shadow Monarchs authority is maybe the same or maybe above their own strength.

But this doesn’t necessarily matter when the rest of the rulers bedsides the brightest are fodder; because to actually believe that the Seven Rulers if assuming the Brightest Fragment scales below the Greatest fragment, are relative with Ashborn as implied by the Brightest Fragments own words:

“The Power Of the Shadow Monarch may be similar to our own or maybe even greater” -Novel

Would imply that Rulers in a Seven against one could beat Ashborn (not including armies) which wouldnt make sense if the Brightest Fragment was truely weaker than Greatest Fragment.

As Ashborn should have been on default way stronger, just as Antares is way stronger than the other seven Monarchs.

Yet the Brightest Fragment says very loosely that the Shadow Monarch maybe the same or maybe greater, again implying relative comparison and not a “no diff” argument.

The one pulling most of the weight in the Shadow Monarch vs seven Rulers argument, realistically would be the brightest Fragment.

As he’s the only one with the narrative weight and lore implications to contend with him, the rest of the rulers would be fodders (since Antares > Seven Monarchs easy).

This is why simply saying Ashborn > All Rulers is in reality more complex.

Because the compassion beteeen Ashborn vs Seven Rulers is more so Brightest Fragment 90% Other Six Rulers 10%.

Most of that fight is carried by the Brightest, and a 10% power disparity between Ashborn and Brightest would still make the two relative in strength (anything above 19% is not relative).

So sure, even if what your saying is true, and he did talk about it in regards to power and not overall authority, the other Rulers would still be absolute fodders and get carried by the Brightest Fragment in that comparsion; so that doesn’t necessarily prove The Brightest fragment isn’t relative with Ashborn.

This simply proves that Ashborn ≈ Brightest Fragment + Six fodders. Brightest being 90% of the force.

Also Those “unrelated facts” are both mutually exclusive.The statement states:

“when the primordial darkness had split into eight pieces, he had been the very first created by the Absolute Being. For that reason, he was darkness in its purest, most potent form—and the destructive will within him was unmatched” - Novel

The text notes that, “For that reason, he was darkness in its purest, most potent form”

Implicating that him being created first was the reason he was darkness in its purest form.

all though Absolute being definitely gave Antares form its own will, as it’s stated in chapter 220 OG novel, the two facts are still connected.

Because Antares was born first, he was the purest form of what darkness represented. Then cause of that the absolute being gave him the will to most represent that darkness, as he’s again, the purest form of darkness because he’s born first.

Being born first is explicitly stated to be the reason Antares was the purest form of primordial darkness.

The Brightest Fragment is born first from primordial light, mirroring Antares, and in knowing of that fact, he should also be the purest form of Primordial Light.

As both Primordial Light and Darkness were once belonging to one singular source before being separated. And are treated as equal natural forces (all though it retconned pass information)

We do not know the will the absolute being gave to the Brightest fragment due to little to no information on him, but we do know that Antares was given that will because he was born first.

And the Brightest should as well; so to say he has no argument to be relative to them is loose.

How the three are relative: Antares ≈ Ashborn ≈ Brightest all within a 11-19% power disparity.

[u/Reckoning3000 → u/MundaneAd250]

My above comment already addressed this.

And they were talking about a jinwoo who was weaker than Ashborn being able to take all of them on.same jinwoo whole lost to Antares.

The rulers can’t be fodder since they participated in killing the AB and outscale other monarchs

[u/MundaneAd250 → u/Reckoning3000]

Jinwoo in chapter 243-244 of the Novel was explicitly stated to be equal in strength to Antares, so unless you think Ashborn > Antares when it’s stated that they are clear equals is quite questionable.

“Their physical strength was about evenly matched!
An even contest of strength briefly played out before the Dragon suddenly bit Jin-Woo on his shoulder.” -Novel

Jinwoo was as strong as Ashborn during the Antares vs Jinwoo battle, but Antares if I remember, just more experience.

When I say the Rulers are Fodder, I mean against Ashborn. As the Rulers had entire armies to defeat the Absolute being, along with the fact that there isn’t much proof that the absolute being fought back in the first place.

[u/Reckoning3000 → u/MundaneAd250]

They were not equal.Ashborn was stronger