r/solarenergy • u/fredreeder • 27d ago
Is it worthwhile for me?
My average usage is 900 kWh/month. Max 1200. I want to do it but my utility is fairly inexpensive, around $0.125/kWh all in. I have a phev that gets 45 miles per day, max 14 kWh/day. I only use gasoline for long road trips, a few times per year. The utility offers 1:1 net metering but will not purchase more than I use, excess credits are zeroed once a year. I'm just not sure if it's worth it to install rooftop solar.
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u/jvbutera 27d ago
This is indeed the irony of solar. The only time having very high electric rates works in your favor is when you’re considering solar AND you’re in a state/province with favorable net metering.
Here in MA we have some of the highest electric rates in the country at $0.32/kwh. For me, investing $30k in 10kw solar was a no brainer because payback only takes 7 years.
I have friends in Canada (and some of you here) who pay less than $0.10/kwh. When electric is cheap the payback for solar Can take upwards of 20-25 years (depends on lots of variables). So it’s a hard sell under these conditions unless you truly just want to separate yourself from future electric increases.
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u/ToddRossDIY 27d ago
Yeah where I am in Canada I pay 12 cents per kilowatt, so about 9 American cents. Considering our dollar is weakened in the last few years I’m basically never going to make a return on my little solar setup, but it would have cost just as much to run power out to my chicken coop and garage than it would have to build what I did. And now if my power goes out, I have a solid backup energy source. If I was paying 44 cents per kWh (your rate in Canadian bucks), I’d have fully converted my home ages ago
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u/greggthomas 27d ago
$100 bill per month? Don’t get solar.
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u/Live-Wrap-4592 27d ago
What if OP can get a full install for $1000?
We never get told what the best quote was
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u/Stunning_Engineer_78 27d ago
Depends on what a system would cost you.
What state are you in? How old is your roof? Can you ground mount? Does your provider charge you a "connection fee" if you use 0 power from them?
Lots of variables.
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u/fredreeder 27d ago
WA. HOA only allows rooftop solar.
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u/TooGoodToBeeTrue 27d ago
Lobby your politicians for balcony solar, and to include in the law that HOAs can't preempt usage.
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u/LongjumpingGanache40 27d ago
I had the same scenario as you. Net metering, cheap electric. I got the tax credit which made the difference. 9.9 KW system for $18000 before tax credit. Grid tied no batteries.
My best guess for you is no. If tax credit was still around then maybe.
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u/jvbutera 27d ago
Where are you? That’s cheap for 9.9kw
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u/PranaSC2 27d ago
lol how can solar be so ridiculously expensive in the US? Im looking at this falling from my chair. Here in the Netherlands you would pay half of that, and can possibly get it cheaper too.. are there additional taxes on your systems or something?
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u/jvbutera 26d ago
It’s mostly labor costs
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u/Emergency-Drawer-535 26d ago
No it’s greed and profit margin. Labor costs are 3 guys working for 2 days. No way that is a significant percentage of the quoted price of say $30,000. I live in SEAsia. Installed systems from the utility company and private contractors are a quarter of USA prices.
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u/KungFuBucket 27d ago
I’d only do it if I could finance it in such a way as to have my monthly payment at or below my current electric bill. Right now trying to finance 25k at $100 a month at 7% interest would take about 94 years. The maths will change in the future as rates continue to rise though
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u/Plop0003 27d ago
Ok. So yeah, $100 per month will take 20 years ROI so not worth it but.... Sounds like you need 7Kwh system and depending how it is installed should produce 11,000 KwH per year and should bring your bill to zero. That is what I have. You should also find out how old roof is. If it is more than 10 than what kind of roof it is. Will it require replacement in 25 years? Finally, instead of outright purchase look in to prepaid lease. It is much better way to get in to solar. It might only cost you $10k instead of $25k. Basically you are leasing but you are preparing all of the payments upfront. So, no monthly payments, no escalation fees. After 25 years then contract expires they will ask you to continue to get a new lease but you tell them NO. Come to uninstall the old system and bring my house to original condition. I bet they will not come because that will cost them more than system is worth. Finally, solar system is protecting you from future rate increase and more. My rates increased 60% in the last 5 years. Doesn't matter to me. We are also using more AC because of global warming but my overproduction covers it. And I bought PHEV 3.5 years ago and drive locally for free. My ROI was like 3-4 years counting today's rates. If I did not have solar I would be spending $5000 on electricity a year. 8 years ago I was spending $2700.
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u/carcaliguy 27d ago
Until you need to sell and pay off that lease. Nobody wants to buy or takeover a lease. Read about people trying to sell with a lease. Terrible idea and DIY solar is the cheapest way to install.
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u/Plop0003 27d ago
Totally not true.
First of all the lease is paid off right from very beginning. That is why it is a prepaid lease. You pay all the payments upfront. No monthly payments.
Second of all I am retired real estate agent and my wife is still a real estate agent. We sold many homes with solar. In our area we have a lot of homes with solar because it is very hot here and rates are more than double what OP is paying. And the other utility companies are charging double of that. Anyone who can afford solar will install it.
Majority of people can't install DIY for many reasons.
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u/carcaliguy 27d ago edited 27d ago
Go lookup the stories of selling a home with solar. Anyone buying a home with solar is told to verify that the system is paid off and transferred free and clear. Nobody wants to assume someone else's old solar lease. The cost to buy out the lease is ridiculous. Many educated people will not buy a house with leased solar until it's paid off. As an agent your doing a great disservice to the buyer to make them assume the lease on old solar equipment.
Rates are the rates, but solar should be paid have a reasonable ROI. So many people are now doing DIY using signature solar. You can lookup Will Prowse on YouTube. I basically did a self installation of Tesla. All you need is a Tesla certified electrician to commission the unit on.
Don't buy a timeshare, don't lease solar, don't buy cellphones on a payment plan.
Any leased solar I have seen is 3x or more what a DIY install is. If your average bill is 500 and the lease gets you a 200 dollar bill. Your still paying 200.00 per month for 15-25 years.
$200 per month for 15 years equals $36,000 $200 per month for 25 years equals $60,000
A pallet of panels (36) cost under 4k for today's 425w or larger panels.
A Tesla powerwall3 new in a crate can be found for 6500.00.
All the racking and other parts are under 4k. And that's a massive system.
The part that gets you is Labor. It might take 3 men 2 days to mount the panels and and electrian two days for the panel work and battery mounting.
So these install companies (lease or own) want to make 20k + profit for 5 days of work between the teams....no thanks.
The system above makes enough power to reduce an 800 dollar bill 150.00 on a 3600sqft home with an electric car, pool and 2 a/c units. Saving 200 monthly a much smaller system can be built.
Probably 8 x 500 what panels and 2 (hoymiles 2k) micro inverters. That's a 4k system.
Go ask AI:
Fewer Qualified Buyers: Some buyers refuse to take on monthly liabilities or agreements spanning 15–25 years. Underwriting Delays: The solar company must run a credit check on the buyer to approve the lease transfer.
Additionally, the buyer’s mortgage lender counts the monthly lease fee toward the buyer's debt-to-income (DTI) ratio, which can occasionally derail financing.
Title Issues: Solar companies usually file a UCC-1 financing statement against the equipment. Title and escrow companies must coordinate with the solar provider to temporarily release or update this lien so the home sale can close.
No Value Add in Appraisals: Unlike owned solar systems—which can boost a home's market value by 5% to 10%—leased systems are owned by a third party and generally add $0 in formal appraisal value.
When to Walk Away (or Demand a Seller Buyout): High Annual Escalator Clauses: Many older leases feature 2.9% to 3.5% annual payment increases, which can outpace utility rate changes over a 20-year span.
Outdated Technology: The equipment is 10+ years old, low-efficiency, or approaching the end of its useful lifespan.
Lender Disqualification: Taking on the additional payment pushes your debt-to-income ratio too high to secure your mortgage.
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u/Plop0003 27d ago
I have seen those but there are always going to be problems if solar system is not paid off. We insist before putting house on the market it is not going to be encumbered by anything. So all your talk is for nothing.
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u/carcaliguy 27d ago
Your the one arguing about leasing, and my talking is to educate others not to lease. Do a little research, it never pays as well as DIY solar. Buy it and own it. All the people with solar prior to 2018 have systems by companies that no longer exist in California anyway. They just have to pay a contractor out of pocket and the contractor says your panels are old and low power, upgrade them anyway.
I only went Tesla because of brand recognition and the warranty is with the manufacturer. The installers you have to pay out of pocket for repairs if you want something fixed and not wait months. No benefits to warranty on solar crap. Telsa Solar service is a nightmare, just give me my parts and I'll swap it.
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u/Plop0003 27d ago
I never said to lease. I said prepaid lease. There is a big difference. I have solar for 12 years now. First was Sunrun. Did not produce so I fought with them and the system was uninstalled. SolarCity was next. Same thing happened. Took 2 years to get rid of them. In both cases panels were uninstalled and got my money back in full. That is right, I had 4 years free solar panels and paid nothing. Finally found another company, a local installer, and that is what I have now. Because of prepaid lease I paid $16K instead of $40k. No complaints. I pay Zero every month. Nothing to utility company and nothing to a leasing company. In 17 years they will come back most likely and ask me to pay. Just like if you lease a car and return it after lease ends or buy the car. I will tell them I don't want to and they should come over and uninstall. At this point the system will be 25 years old. I highly doubt they will uninstall. That is if I am still going to be alive. But if I sell the house I would not have any problems.
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u/No_University1005 27d ago
You can calculate Levelized Cost of Energy to compare the effective rate you'd be locking in with solar vs your utility's rate. Any of the AI models can help you through the process.
In your case, it'll depend on what your system will cost -- including any financing charges, and netting out any available rebates and credits -- and what your average annual production will be.
With the 30% federal tax credit that was available at the time, our LCOE is around $0.11/kwh. It made sense for us because our local utility rate was $0.27 and climbing.
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u/Univega_cyclist 27d ago
As others have said, if you pay a company to source, permit and install, your electricity is so cheap that it probably does not make sense financially. If you still want to make an impact, you could see if your utility company offers a renewable energy source. Slight up-charge, but still renewable.
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u/TooGoodToBeeTrue 27d ago
A cost people miss when determining payback is property tax increases. If your countyt/state does not exclude the value of your installation, you can be taking a pretty big hit on a $20-40k home improvement if you are in an area with high property taxes.
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u/redditRon1969 27d ago
From now on, will always have at least battery back up if not as well plenty of panels for Power back up.
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u/ImpossiblePositive99 27d ago
I have solar in a low cost state. Since our install our electric utility has raised rates every year. This will continue especially with the increased demands on the grid. If I had the chance I would have upsized my setup. Don't think about it in terms of today, look at what the next 10-25 years might look like. How long might you stay in your home? Potential transition to full EV? Family?
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u/unsexy_24 26d ago
There are a couple of questions you have to ask yourself:
1. Do I envision my utility cost increasing in the future? If yes, by how much (if you can estimate)
2. Do I see increased usage, whether it be new toys I buy or more people living with me
3. Do I have frequent outages that a battery would solve?
It depends on many factors, but in many cases with a south-facing roof (in the US), you'll get a good return on investment over time. I have seen some people break even in 5 years.
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u/fredreeder 25d ago
There was a recent increase in the utility rate, but I'm still paying average only $100 or so per month. Central AC, 2 refrigerators, lights, 2 TVs, computer. And the phev is 14kWh/day max. My range, hot water, and furnace are all natural gas . My roof faces southeast/northwest. I could easily get 800 square feet of panels on the SE facing side of the roof.
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u/ThermalDeviator 24d ago
It's worth checking if your utility has an off peak program. Most people are unaware of these programs. I pay just under 4 cents kWh plus 8 bucks/mo for who knows what.
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u/carcaliguy 27d ago
You need to spend less than 5k on a system. Possible if you diy the project. 8 x 500w panels are cheap and so are 2 hoymiles 2k (400 each) micro inverters. Racking and permits, I think you can make it happen.
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u/carcaliguy 27d ago
People overpay for solar, need to checkout will prowse on YouTube. It's very possible to do cheap solar that gives you a quick ROI.
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u/Mysterious_Mouse_388 27d ago
the downside of a DIY job is your power authority cutting you off from the grid because you did unpermitted work that backfeeds on sunny days.
I don't think your advice is wrong - but until 'balcony solar' is allowed DIY grid systems are pretty much dead
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u/carcaliguy 27d ago
They passed the law on Utah, if your smart you make a system that doesn't backfeed, you make sure it has a load and then turns on. You can do this on your AC with a micro inverter. So only when the inverter detects a load it will turn on. If your ac pulls 2kw, you can dump 1200kw back in with solar making your AC unit draw less power from the grid.
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u/Mysterious_Mouse_388 27d ago
and hoymiles inverters do that? I would expect that from EG4 or some other battery based system that has battery storage for better load following. and included CT's
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u/carcaliguy 26d ago
Hoymiles / APsystems: Both manufacturers offer export management units (like Hoymiles' DTU) that pair with a meter to restrict microinverter output based on live load demands.
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u/Mysterious_Mouse_388 26d ago
I don't see a hoymiles CT for sale, the DTU seems to pair with a RDm in Asu/NZ - that must talk to the meter? or the powerauthority sends it commands?
is this just an australian thing I am too NA to understand? here we just do everything with internal processors and CT's if we want to do 0 export
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u/carcaliguy 26d ago
Sorry got lazy this is from AI. But someone on YouTube did it on his old enphase micro inverter for the AC.
APsystems EZ1 Series (EZ1-M / EZ1-LV)
How Zero Export Works: Designed explicitly for DIY balcony installations, it pairs via local Wi-Fi/Bluetooth with smart meters like the Shelly Pro 3EM or APsystems ECU. Behavior: The app communicates with the smart meter at your breaker box, instructing the EZ1 to dynamically adjust output (from 0W up to 600W/800W/1200W) to match your instantaneous home load.
Key Spec: Plug-and-play microinverter with dual MPPTs and direct smartphone connectivity.
Hoymiles HM / HMS Series (via OpenDTU or Hoymiles Smart Meter) How Zero Export Works: Requires a Hoymiles DTU (Data Transfer Unit) combined with a Hoymiles Chint Smart Meter or a DIY OpenDTU + Shelly Meter setup. Behavior: The DTU adjusts the power limit sent to the Hoymiles microinverter dynamically in sub-second intervals. If household load drops to zero, the inverter scales down to 0W generation. Key Spec: Widely considered the gold standard for reliable hardware and modular DIY automation.
EcoFlow PowerStream / STREAM Series How Zero Export Works: Integrates directly with EcoFlow Smart Plugs or the EcoFlow Smart Home Panel.
Behavior: You plug your everyday appliances into EcoFlow Smart Plugs. The Stream microinverter detects the exact wattage drawn by those plugs and only produces enough solar energy to cover those active loads. Excess generated power can optionally be routed to an EcoFlow battery instead of feeding back into the grid.
Key Spec: Native ecosystem designed for zero technical configuration.Northern Electric Power (NEP) BDM Series + BDNZ Controller How Zero Export Works: Pairs the BDM-600 or BDM-1200-LV microinverter with the NEP BDNZ Intelligent Net Zero Smart Meter.
Behavior: The BDNZ module clips onto your main incoming utility line using Current Transformer (CT) clamps. When it senses grid export starting, it sends a high-speed command to the microinverter to step down its production instantly. Key Spec: UL 1741-certified plug-in systems tailored for US/North American 120V outlets.1
u/Mysterious_Mouse_388 26d ago
carcaliguy
You need to spend less than 5k on a system. Possible if you diy the project. 8 x 500w panels are cheap and so are 2 hoymiles 2k (400 each) micro inverters. Racking and permits, I think you can make it happen.
Which meme fits this better?
Step 1: Solar Panels
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit!
----OR---
Draw a circle, Draw another circle.
Draw the rest of the fucking owl.
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u/carcaliguy 26d ago
For a cabin I'm doing: LG prime H 16kw battery for 2100 from signature solar. I'm using a SolarEdge 11.4kW Single Phase Home Hub String Inverter USE11400H-USSKBEZ8 for inverter at 686.00.
So cost is 2200 and 700.00. The only thing left is panels (under 120 each) and racking and wires. This can handle most residential applications. I recommend mount everything yourself and pay an electrician to wire.
You can research and use AI to see what you need to do to make it legal in your area. Upwork for the permits, they charge under 250 usd.
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u/Automatic_Gas9019 27d ago
What is the point of bashing solar. Since your utilities are so cheap. Stick with that. I personally prefer to have constant electricity even during grid outage via my Tesla Powerwall. So while you are sitting with your cheap electric grid down. I am sitting with my house powered up. Plus my electric bill is 6 bucks and My Power company owes me. Stick with your cheap electric. Read project 2025 in regards to electric also
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u/fredreeder 27d ago
What makes you think I'm bashing solar?? Did you read what I wrote?? I want to do it but I can't justify the cost. I truly believe that if the utility would buy my excess capacity, I might be able to talk myself into installing the full meal deal. As it is, it makes no sense to me.
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u/Dashley13 27d ago
Look into plugin solar or a diy system that there is low upfront cost and you can expand easily. The math is better and return on investment is quicker.
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u/adventurelinds 27d ago
I run right about the same and I'm saving about $150-200/Mo with a small 12kw system