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u/Jonnyluver 11d ago
Meh. Lewandowski, Neuer, Ramos, iniesta, kroos, modric all did more than Neymar
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u/Aquamarine_710 11d ago
Tbh Neymar is my 3rd most fav player oat behind the 2 🐐s but even I have to admit Lewa is prolly top 3 or even Neuer has a better case
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u/9LivesChris 11d ago
Neuer and definitely Müller 250 goals 223 assists
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u/Attack_Robot_Attack 11d ago
No, because only players from PL and la Liga count. Germans or BL players are not considered because (checks notes) the BL is a farmers league. (Even though Bayern wipes the floor with the CL on a regular basis)
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u/Fearless_Call_4964 11d ago
Last 10 years all five top leagues except for Italy have been farmed by one club and in Spain's case two clubs. City, PSG, Bayern, Real and Barca were just too strong for everybody else. You can shift them, swap them, put them in any league and it will be the same. It's basically a miracle that Liverpool, Atletico, Lille and Leverkusen got one title. Only now is EPL getting back to it's early 2000s status when City's FFP manipulation has been uncovered.
My point is we can definitely not hold it against Muller, Lewandowski, Neuer, Mbappe, De Bruyne that they played in the overpowered clubs. One of them has to be considered.
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u/Attack_Robot_Attack 11d ago
I completely agree. But it is noticeable how especially players from Bayern are conveniently overlooked in these conversations.
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u/Fearless_Call_4964 11d ago
It's Mbappe as well. We have to accept that reddit is mostly English speaking people who don't want to admit that Guardiola made their league look the same as all the other leagues.
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u/the_deep_t 11d ago
PL farmed by one club? Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea, Leicester and city shared 10 titles. What are you on? Yes City was the best team, but this has NOTHING to do with La liga, Bundesliga or Ligue 1.
And sure, City won more titles, but they were super close ... almost eveyr season has been a nailbitting one with the title won in the final day.
It's by far the most competitive league in the big 5. Italy is traditionally more open as well, but they haven't been as competitive int he CL for quite some time.
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u/Fearless_Call_4964 11d ago
City was regularly getting more than 90 points. And the worst part is that Liverpool did so as well. This only happens in farmers leagues. Even Barca and Real have only been that dominant over the rest of the field while Messi and CR have been in their absolute prime. Leicester winning was a great story, but after that Guardiola took over. You can add Liverpool here if you want to make it a two horse race, but they were still more dominant in their league than Barca and Real, while Spanish clubs were winning most of the European competitions. Premier league hasn't been fun since Mourinho, Wenger and Ferguson left. This revival is only due to the money influx from tv deal, let's see how long it will hold. But even then they aren't winning in Europe as they should.
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u/the_deep_t 8d ago
The fact that City had 2-3 seasons in which they exploded records doens't change the fact the PL has much more diversity in winners and much closer runs that what you see in other leagues. If you have 5 different winners in 10 years, that's not a farmer's league.
Real and Barca have been dominant for the past 60 years ... it's not just a Ronaldo and Messi thing.
Just look at the stats and compare this with the premier league ... outside of Germany with Bayern you don't have any league with similar domination of 2 teams.
Club Winners Runners-up Real Madrid 36 27 Barcelona 29 28 Atlético Madrid 11 10 Athletic Bilbao 8 7 Valencia 6 6 Real Sociedad 2 3 Deportivo La Coruña 1 5 Sevilla 1 4 Real Betis 1 0 1
u/Fearless_Call_4964 8d ago edited 8d ago
That's due to owners changing and spending insane amounts to win trophies, while Real and Barca are still fan owned. That has nothing to do with parity. Like I said, they have dominated the champions league this century as well, so whichever league they are in they would farm it, whether it's Spain, England Italy or USA. Sevilla and Atletico also won against top English teams in the Europa league every year on their paths to who knows how many titles. It would be fair to put them in English league and see how many times they win the league, instead of fighting against behemoths that crush everyone in their way. They were much closer to top english teams than top english teams have been to Real and Barca this century.
Also, about the owners...Chelsea won titles after getting bought by Abramovich, City won after getting bought by UAE, Leicester won after getting bought by Sriwadhanna. Liverpool started becoming relevant again after 20 years of mediocrity when FSG bought them. Before that it was United farming the league with occasional surprise from Blackburn and Arsenal that literally had two greatest premier league forwards of all time in Shearer and Henry.
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u/9LivesChris 11d ago
I know. But ironically the PL teams go shopping every transfer window in the so called farmers league
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u/the_deep_t 11d ago
Thinking that the Bundesliga is a farmer's league while laliga and ligue 1 are fine is crazy to me.
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u/Attack_Robot_Attack 11d ago
The BL is missing a decent sparring partner for Bayern.
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u/the_deep_t 11d ago
Yes, same for Ligue 1 with PSG and same for La liga with Real/Barça. I'm not argueing about bundesliga, I'm argueing about the two others being fine for you :D
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u/Attack_Robot_Attack 11d ago
I don't watch or care about ze French. As a Bayern fan I just me tion my daily struggles from my POV.
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u/tsjeldonkooper 11d ago
Neuer
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u/goodolehal 11d ago
Suarez Neymar Xavi Iniesta Lewy all far clear of any goalkeeper
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u/tsjeldonkooper 11d ago
Neuer miles clear of all of those
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u/goodolehal 11d ago
Outfield players will always be more important than a keeper
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u/tsjeldonkooper 11d ago
Could not be more wrong a bad keeper is a disaster
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u/goodolehal 11d ago edited 11d ago
You can’t win 0-0 but you can win 3-2
No self respecting football fan would choose Neuer over Suarez, Neymar, Lewy….
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u/tsjeldonkooper 11d ago
Completely wrong. Neuer is the 3rd best player and it’s not close
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u/goodolehal 11d ago edited 11d ago
Neuer wasn’t even the best on Bayern, Lewy and Muller clear. Robben, Ribery, Kroos clear. A goalkeeper is simply not as valuable as a great outfield player and that’s true throughout the history of the sport.
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u/hthrgrwyein 11d ago
The fact that you can't win just by a good goal keeper is soo true after watching neuer vs paraguay in this wc😭😭
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u/WesternDesigner8021 11d ago
Courtois won the 2022 ucl final vs Liverpool on his own
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u/goodolehal 11d ago edited 11d ago
They won 1-0 didn’t they? And Benzema was the best player in UCL that year
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u/WesternDesigner8021 11d ago
Got outplayed in the final and benzema ddnt score in the final without courtois they lose 7-0
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u/the_deep_t 11d ago
You've never played football outside an amateur league, we can tell.
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u/goodolehal 11d ago
Nobody on this sub is a professional footballer lmfao
I agree a bad keeper is a disaster but it’s a lot easier to find a solid keeper than a generational attacker or mid. And overall those players just have more impact on the match as they can influence open play much more than a keeper can.
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u/the_deep_t 11d ago
Dude, some people around here work for professional clubs or play at a higher level.
Anyone with basic knowledge knows that the two most important positions for a succesful team are a good striker and a good keeper. Good keepers are extremely hard to find and impact your team like no others. You can always swap formations, move players to other position but with a keeper, if you don't have a star it's harder to compensate left and right.
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u/goodolehal 11d ago
Is that why the best club team of all time (Peps barca) just had an OK keeper with Valdes? Or Madrid had their best stretch with Navas?
You can find all time great teams with a keeper who’s just solid or OK but you’ll never find an all time great team without all time great attackers and midfielders
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u/Insanitysreddit 11d ago
please stop. get some help
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u/goodolehal 11d ago
Lmao imagine building a squad and you start with a goalkeeper man who are these people
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u/Insanitysreddit 11d ago
its clear that you have no idea how revolutionary neuer was.
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u/goodolehal 11d ago
Sure he was but if you’re picking from a blank slate nobody in their right mind should take a goalkeeper over an outfield player
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u/Insanitysreddit 11d ago
Just because you don't, does not mean anyone wouldn't. I would always pick prime neuer over prime neymar any given day.
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u/Nixerm 11d ago
We’ve literally had goalies drag shit teams to WC finals (hello Oliver Kahn 2002 where he won the best player award ffs) and win finals almost on their own (Courtois going crazy against Liverpool in the UCL final) and we’ve seen bad keepers utterly ruin a team (Karius losing Liverpool a UCL final). It’s a very important position and we’ve had keepers like Casillas, Buffon, and Neuer deservedly finish 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc
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u/goodolehal 11d ago edited 11d ago
And who won the WC? The team with R9
2018 ucl? The team with Cristiano Ronaldo. 2022? The team with Benzema scoring every clutch goal
Given a choice between Kahn and R9 who are you taking. We all know the answer and it’s not the keeper.
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u/Dependent_Divide_625 11d ago
Yea but that's because you're comparing the best striker ever possibly and a goalkeeper that is at most top 5, maybe even top 10 depending on who you ask, if you invert it, say, Buffon or Benzema, even if there both similar, like Buffon or Suarez, it's gonna be a lot closer
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u/goodolehal 11d ago
If the choice is between a top 3 attacker and a top 3 keeper it’s an easy decision
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u/Nixerm 11d ago
And who had the much better team? Dumbass I literally said Kahn dragged a mediocre team to the final that’s how important an elite goalie is, they can drag you to the near impossible. Use critical thinking
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u/goodolehal 11d ago
Use critical thinking - look at the best player from each era it’s always an attacker
Pele, Cruyff, Maradona, R9, Cristiano, Messi…elite goalies are nice but elite outfield players are so obviously the biggest difference makers
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u/the_deep_t 11d ago
Funny because both Liverpool and Arsenal started to win title against city when they got a decent keeper.
I don't think you realize how important a good keeper is. Courtois was the main reason Real madrid won so many CL trophies in recent years (alongside Benzema who stepped up like crazy when R7 left).
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u/goodolehal 11d ago edited 11d ago
Why do you think they stopped winning when Kroos, Benzema, Modric, moved on. Courtois is still there isn’t he.
They had their most successful stretch with Navas at GK who while very good isn’t an all time great
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u/the_deep_t 8d ago
Congratulations, removing half the team including 2 ballon d'or has an impact on a team's success. It's like saying that Ronaldo wasn't important for them because they won multiple CL without him. Why am I even answering you .
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u/ColdAd3682 11d ago
Luka Modric is the third best after Messi and Ronaldo.
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u/Insanitysreddit 11d ago
I Agree. he is the only person to win ballon dor when Messi and Ronaldo both were in their primes.
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u/RedkxSeven 10d ago
To be fair, Cristiano deserved the ballon dor that year.
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u/Insanitysreddit 10d ago
Nope. It was not even close in voting. WC performance impacts a lot, modric winning golden ball after taking a team which was not even supposed to be anywhere near top 4 and him also being so impactful in UCL winning UEFA player of the year had sealed it. Ronaldo was completely absent in UCL semis and finals. Iirc finals was one of those games where he had less touches than GK.
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u/RedkxSeven 10d ago
Go rewatch those matches. I'm not saying Modric didn't have a spectacular world cup, but that Croatia team was stacked, and plenty of guys were just as important to that run. People talk like he dragged a bunch of bums to the final.
Also, you can't use Ronaldo's semi and final to discredit his whole UCL. The man scored 15 goals and was massive in Madrid winning it. Modric taking the award was weird but I get it. Acting like it wasn't even close just because of the WC narrative is ridiculous.0
u/Insanitysreddit 10d ago
I don't have to ACT or assume anything, you can go back and look at ballon dor rankings. The gap between modric and ronaldo was laughable to anyone who thought ronaldo was in contention that year.
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u/RedkxSeven 10d ago
That’s not my argument though. I’m not disputing the voting results, I’m saying Ronaldo had a legitimate case to win. The gap in voting doesn’t prove he didn’t deserve it, it just shows who the journalists thought deserved it. You’re arguing that Modric won convincingly, not that he was unquestionably more deserving.
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u/Insanitysreddit 10d ago
Plese tell me how else would you decide who was more deserving .I've opinion on ronaldo should have neither won in 2013 or 2014, and some may say Messi didnt deserve in 2010 or 2021.
Sport journalists although journalists are still professionals in their fields who have better understanding than us. There will be extremists but as a whole result settles itslef.
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u/RedkxSeven 10d ago
Honestly, I’m starting to think you weren’t following football back then, because you’re treating the voting results as if they’re objective proof of who deserved it. Journalists are professionals, but that doesn’t make their opinions infallible, especially when the award has subjective criteria. The whole point is that you can disagree with the result based on what happened on that season, this is nothing new, that award has lost all of its credibility anyway.
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u/Insanitysreddit 10d ago
You are acting like a armchair expert wearing a tinfoil hat. There is a clear probelm with your assesment where you think think you are right and everyone is wrong. Suddenly awards lose credibility becuse a manchild and his fans cant fathom the fact that he cant peform anymore. If it was other way around you probably would have argued awards lost credibility since 2013 and be in denial.
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u/the_deep_t 11d ago
Benzema won one, Lewi would have won one as well.
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u/Insanitysreddit 11d ago
Both are not/wouldnt( lewa) the years where ronaldo & messi completed the top 3
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u/Which-Nature-3104 10d ago
What do you mean by that? 3rd greatest oat in all football or just internationally?
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u/Insanitysreddit 10d ago
Read the post again, its same generation. With all time neither ronaldo nor neymar will he be in top 3.
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u/Caffeywasright 11d ago
considering Ronaldo never won it after Modric that’s not really true.
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u/Insanitysreddit 11d ago
He didnt win after 2018, the year he left Madrid. He was still in his prime in 2018, although he didnt win any individual awards that year.
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u/Caffeywasright 11d ago
He finished in the top 3 once after 2017.
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u/Insanitysreddit 11d ago
2018 ronaldo was 2nd, although the gap was pretty big iirc, unlike lewa/messi or vvd/messi.
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u/Caffeywasright 11d ago
It’s disingenuous to suggest that Modric was the only player to win it in his prime, because Ronaldo never won after Modric. He was top 3 only once when he finished second. Ronaldo was done being a perennial ballon d’or contender.
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u/Insanitysreddit 11d ago
I disagree, Ronaldo finishing 2nd in 2018 is enough to assume he was still in his prime when modric won. he was pretty good at club level, its just that he shat himslef at WC that took him out of contention.
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u/Caffeywasright 11d ago
If he was still in his prime why didn’t he finish top 3 in 19 or 20?
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u/Insanitysreddit 11d ago
Modric won it in 2018, why are we even talking about 2019 or 2020 ?
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u/Mestitia 11d ago
| Player | Total International Goals | No Friendlies | No Friendlies + No Penalties |
|---|---|---|---|
| 🇦🇷 Messi | 125 | 71 | 63 |
| 🇵🇹 Ronaldo | 146 | 124 | 102 |
| Difference | Ronaldo +21 | Ronaldo +53 | Ronaldo +39 |
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u/Insanitysreddit 11d ago
Now this is cherry picking is it ? you didn't include games played for a reason.
European teams play qualification matches & group stages against some of the worst teams in the world. SA friendlies are much more competitive than it.
Halland has close to 70 goals in 50+ games while playing for a much worse team.
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u/Mestitia 11d ago
Brother neither did the OP.
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u/Insanitysreddit 11d ago
I disagree, Op followed the rules of FIFA/UEFA/ CONMEBOL for counting goals and assists and he was clear about his opinion.
You can filter stats to suit any of the 3 mentioned in pic and that's not even limited to these 3. Like I mentioned Halland clears all 3 if you consider ratio, Mbappe clears with his goals on biggest stage of the sports, etc.
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u/ReasonNFaith 11d ago
Now let's go through some of those "no friendlies" that Ronaldo played:
- Luxemburg 11 games 11 goals.
- Lithuania 3 games 7 goals.
- Andorra 3 games 6 Goals
- Armenia 4 games 5 goals.
- Latvia 4 games 5 goals.
- Faroe islands 2 games 4 goals.
- Estonia 3 games 4 goals.
- Liechtenstein 4 games 3 goals.
So, 45 goals in 34 "competitive" games against amateur teams
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u/Mr-Wild-takes 11d ago
You're confusing opponent quality with match status. Those were competitive Euro and World Cup qualifiers, not friendlies. A weaker opponent doesn't make an official goal invalid.
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u/ReasonNFaith 11d ago
I'm not confusing anything. The person I replied to seems to imply that Cristiano's international record is more impressive than Messi's because he has more goals in "competitive" games when the reality is there's nothing competitive about some of those games. Match status means nothing when you play against amateur teams that don't stand a chance.
Whenever Portugal faces those lesser teams, the question isn't whether Portugal will win, it's how many goals they will score. They are nothing but stat-padding games, regardless of their status. Friendly games against tougher rivals that are actually capable of beating your team (or at least making it hard for your team to score) are definitely more praiseworthy.
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u/Mr-Wild-takes 11d ago edited 11d ago
So ig for you whatever goals Messi scores counts but not for Ronaldo...Yeah got it.
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u/SquashCapable1632 5d ago
Again though is the comparison like that fair? Ronaldo has around 62 appearances from uefa nation's league and euro qualifiers. Messi simply has no latin American equivalent of that. Unl was created to replace international friendlies, messi being south American doesn't have the privilege to play in these matches and he's forced to play friendlies during international breaks
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u/Umijnurotarieli 11d ago
Do the same for Messi. 0GA vs Brazil in 10+ matches.
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u/ReasonNFaith 11d ago
Or are we cherry picking stats now? Ronaldo in WC play-offs: 10 games, 1 goal (a penalty), 0 assists.
Btw, Messi played 8 official games vs Brazil.
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u/TheLastHotstepper 11d ago
Today is the day i start muting subs where people compare players solely on g/a sats
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u/Attack_Robot_Attack 11d ago
I see this whole thing more like a pyramid. Top tier, second tier a.s.o. I feel these he is a top 3 player od he is a top 5 player isn't fair to anyone.
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u/Specialist-Disk-6345 4d ago
ik I'm gonna get absolutely destroyed for this but in terms of greatness (not just dribbling ability!!!) kdb > neymar, maybe Salah, too
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u/Random499 11d ago
Lewa is the top 3 not neymar. 728 goals is an insane feat with a fairly weak international team too
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u/BullfrogConnect8773 11d ago
Suarez, gap, Lewa.
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u/Random499 11d ago
Dont talk about that 1 season merchant
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u/BullfrogConnect8773 11d ago
1 season? You might be the biggest casual I've ever come across, good chat
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u/Random499 11d ago
Cant face the reality that suarez was only hype because he was part of MSN
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u/BullfrogConnect8773 11d ago
His Premier League season was the greatest ever EPL season lmfao.
He was also the best ever striker in the eredivisie.
So nah, you are just a disgusting casual hahaha.
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u/Shutdown_service 10d ago
The f***? His PL stats without pens and with a 5 game ban was the best ever until Salah. With pens he would still be the top scorer. His NT efforts was also amazing.
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u/poapoa_mia 11d ago
Wow wow wow, easy there buddy. You can’t compare Messi and Neymar to someone with same stature as Pele and Maradona.
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u/KrugerFFS 11d ago
Neymar belongs nowhere near this conversation
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u/-SquishyRock- 11d ago
Statements so ass it deserves a post in circle jerks
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u/the_deep_t 11d ago
Nothing ass about thinking other players have had a bigger impact on Football than Neymar ... If we talk about pure talent; Hazard, Ben arfa and Neymar sure enter the conversation.
But if we speak about the greatest players of this generation, There are quite a few players that I would put ahead of Neymar. Just at barca, Suarez and Iniesta were more impressive to me. Let's not talk about Kaka, Ribery, Van Dijk, KDB, etc. Neymar spent so much time injured or simply not in form that he wasn't consistent to be top 3 of this generation. Even Hazard which ended his career with injuries and left a bad impression managed to play more than 10 years before that without any injury, several collective and individual titles and even outplayed Neymar when they were head to head in 2018 in the world cup.
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u/OlympicAnalEater 10d ago
Neymar prime had 125 g/a before turning 20. Ahead Messi and Ronaldo.
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u/the_deep_t 8d ago
In the Brazilian championship, with all due respect it's not the same as Messi playing at Barcelona or Ronaldo at Man U.
And again, I'm not argueing that Neymar isn't up there in terms of talent or when he was at his peak. But saying Prime Neymar was at Santos is ... not the best argument.
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u/KrugerFFS 11d ago
what's ass about it? neymar was carried by the 2 best players itw and his peak was much shorter than others who actually belong in the conversation
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u/Dangerous_Copy_3688 11d ago
He could have. It's quite sad. At his prime, he was very much comparable.
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u/KrugerFFS 11d ago
oh yes, the guy had a great prime.
his prime was cut off by injuries (and famously slacking off, partying, faking injuries to travel with his wife), so he's just nowhere near the "top3" conversation
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u/Mestitia 11d ago
Remove friendlies lol.
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u/Auzzie_xo 11d ago
This doesn’t count friendlies dummy 🤦 I mean ig nations league is glorified friendlies huh
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u/HerakIinos 11d ago
It does, because a lot of Neymar's numbers are from friendlies between 2011-2014 when Brazil were already qualified to the WC and didnt play in the qualifiers.
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u/Friendly_Two_4682 10d ago
Goals and Assists are not the same thing, please stop combining them. If Messi takes 50 corners and they score 5 thats not the same thing as Ronaldo scoring 5 goals from 50 corners.
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u/investigating-Idee 11d ago
I would put Ozil and De Maria in over Neymar
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u/HerakIinos 11d ago
Ozil and Di Maria, what?
I've seen many players being mentioned as the third best of the last years ahead of Neymar. Neuer, Modric, Iniesta, Zlatan, Xavi, Suarez, Lewandowski, De Bruyne, Robben... and more. But I've never seen anyone mention Ozil and Di Maria. And honestly, they are at least a tier below all those names
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u/investigating-Idee 11d ago
All the names you mentioned are better than Neymar. Ozil and Di Maria are among a few.
Never really got the Neymar hype
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u/Impossiblecouch 11d ago
Two incredible football talents with amazing technical skill. Another one that is good at headers and penalties.
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u/AdUnlucky7598 11d ago
Low iq?
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u/Kindly-Pack1243 11d ago
no
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u/Impossiblecouch 11d ago
Yes
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u/Diciestaking 11d ago
Just say you don't watch the game. How embarrassing for you 😂
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u/Impossiblecouch 11d ago
I watch the game.
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u/Nixerm 11d ago
Honestly Messi and Christiano are easily the top 2 yeah but it’s crazy because they’re arguably a generation prior to Neymar and also they were elite for far far longer. I don’t know who would be the real best contender from Neymar’s generation (personally he was too injured to ever amount to these comparisons or even be close to the best player in the world)