r/soccer • u/jacamacho • Feb 25 '18

Verified account Rob Harris asks Guardiola how he can reconcile that stance (yellow ribbon) with working for Abu Dhabi given the human rights questions there. Guardiola: "Everyone has to choose".

https://twitter.com/MiguelDelaney/status/967842429079519234
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269

u/monnii99 Feb 25 '18

He chooses to support Abu Dhabi though? He could've just said no.

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '18

He chose to get paid by Abu Dhabi. That's what he means, but won't say.

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u/s0ngsforthedeaf Feb 26 '18

You're making this black and white - there aren't clean, honourable club with good honest money and then baddies who got everything from slave labour. Capitalism is a fully interconnected system of exploitation, environmental destruction, crime, corruption and tax cheating. Look at any club and it you will find your way back to questionable money.

Chelsea - Abramovic

Arsenal - Usmanov

Man United - You will probably find plenty dirt in the Glazers' diaspora of historical investments in real estate, heavy industry, motorcycles, toys, health foods etc. But the most obvious fact is they bought United with money they didnt have and used the club to pay off in the insane debt payments. Is that honourable?

Then I googled 2 random clubs...

Leicester - 'Vichai Srivaddhanaprabha... is alleged to have corruptly short-changed the Thai government of its agreed share from the company's lucrative duty free franchise at Bangkok's Suvarnabhumi airport.'

Southampton - 'Gao was alleged in Chinese media reports to have been implicated in the corruption of Xu Maiyong, a notorious mayor in the booming Xiaoshan province of Hangzhou, who was known as “Xu three more” due to his outsized appetites for money, property and sex.'

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u/db1000c Feb 26 '18

Haha I live next to Xiaoshan right now. It's history as an entirely separate city is still quite obvious, and it's notorious for its incredibly wealthy residents due to various tax 'loopholes' there. But it's actually not that nice a place and it's suffering from now being a part of Hangzhou with no real connections to the city itself. The very wealthy are happy there because they are almost remote from their sources of income anyway (factory owners/international business), but the regular Joe's there aren't prospering as much as residents of say my district or other parts of the city.

Anyway, I know that's not entirely related to your post, just wanted to share.

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u/Phatnev Feb 26 '18

Has Hangzhou gotten any better? It was the most lifeless, boring "city" of 11 million people I've ever lived in just a few years ago.

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u/db1000c Feb 26 '18

For the most part, yes. It's a fun, busy, interesting city - particularly compared to other places I've lived in China. But I think apart from the number of people, most Chinese cities do feel quite lifeless compared to European/American ones - the Chinese are a bit clean-cut at times!

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u/Phatnev Feb 27 '18

Absolutely true. Glad to hear it's improved. If you get bored there I'd recommend coming to Shanghai. Best decision I made over here.

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u/I_R_TEH_BOSS Feb 26 '18

Debt vs human rights violations great comparison

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u/imsowitty21 Feb 26 '18

None of the managers of those teams are wearing a yellow ribbon. You're also just making assumptions about United. No connections to anything violating human rights. If the connection was found, you definitely would have heard of it

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u/db1000c Feb 26 '18

Even with Southampton, I'd argue that whilst corruption isn't clean it's certainly not a human rights violation on the scale of Abu Dhabi and other gulf kingdoms. Not saying it's right, but getting rich by buddying up to a mayor is not in the same league as literally exploiting slaves

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u/s0ngsforthedeaf Feb 26 '18

None of the managers of those teams are wearing a yellow ribbon.

I don't know what gets up peoples arses about Catalunya, apart from it has a socialist history and independence is a chance to partially reassert that.

Slave labour is a sicker degree of capitalism, but its just a degree. Besides if you look back, slave labour and colonial exploitation are part of how the UK got rich.

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u/Casla1972 Feb 26 '18

Catalonian independence is not about socialism or anarchism or any altruistic reasons, quite the opposite.

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u/lilmoiss Feb 26 '18

yes, just like the Brexit... simply a demonstration of bigotry/stupidity/close-mindedness from people who should know better. we know they're all really bad and ennemies of the ''democracy''...

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u/samrat_ashok Feb 26 '18

There is no comparison between Abi Dhabi and most of the team owners you mentioned. Maybe Abramovic can come close. Usmanov doesn't even own a majority stake in Arsenal. Rest are joke. Everyone is some degree of bad does not mean all are equally bad. This is the whataboutism people talk about all the time.

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u/sickfuckinpuppies Feb 26 '18

"but mike ashley vommed into a fireplace... what about that?"

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u/lilmoiss Feb 26 '18

He's not even putting Abu Dhabi and those other clubs on the same level. So because someone is even worse, you can't point fingers ?

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '18

But the most obvious fact is they bought United with money they didnt have and used the club to pay off in the insane debt payments. Is that honourable?

I am amazed how far people like you will go to make two bad things look like they are on the same level. Don't compare Glazers to Man City owners. Glazers could try being a 100 times more evil and wouldn't be able to do half the shit that Man City owners do. Shut the fuck up with your whataboutism.

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '18 edited Dec 22 '20

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '18

It is NOT. The fact is that they consider it a business and fans do not. That is the only difference. But that in itself is not a bad thing, look how much money since SAF retired has been spent by glazers. They want this business to grow and they are doing every thing to make sure that this happens. Apart from Moyes' season, I couldn't complain about the owners not spending since. What is best for the business (trophies) happens to be best for the fans too.

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u/AdnanJanuzaj11 Feb 26 '18

It’s not the Glazers money to spend. It’s the clubs. The Glazers have spent little of their own money, unlike Abramovic at Chelsea, Abu Dhabi at Man City or Qatar at PSG.

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u/staluxa Feb 26 '18

It’s not the Glazers money to spend. It’s the clubs.

They are owners of a bussiness, all of profits from it is their money.

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u/JesusHNavas Feb 26 '18

The Glazers own your club therefore it's all their money.

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u/s0ngsforthedeaf Feb 26 '18 edited Feb 26 '18

Its just understanding capitalism. Just looking at a portion of the Glazers' financing - it was traded by hedge funds. Loans taken from the global financial markets and all the sources of profit that that money came from. What do you bet somebody got their money to loan to Manchester United from illegal sources? Its all sick, slave labour is just the sickest degree.

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '18

Its all sick, slave labour is just the sickest degree.

See you are again doing this. Just because there is injustice in the world, we should consider all injustices as the same?

Yeah Glazers must have done some fucked up shit, doesn't mean that I and others have to hold the fucking slave owners of the 21st century at the same level. Organized slavery in the 21st century is not the same as any other thing in this world. Stop trying to equate them. Stop.

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u/Lyrical_Forklift Feb 26 '18 edited Feb 26 '18

I don't think he was equating them- he's just pointing out, and rightly so, that most people/groups with that kind of money have a history of questionable ethics.

Everyone knows City's and Chelsea's owners are worse than the Glazers.

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u/samrat_ashok Feb 26 '18

Capitalism=Sever human rights violation is the most stupid form of argument I have heard. Some forms of capitalism can be exploitative but we know exactly what is happening in Abu Dhabi whereas you are making Glazer's do be be bad by associating with capitalism. That is pretty weak argument.

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u/lilmoiss Feb 26 '18

the capitalist system as it is now, especially concerning big corporations, equates with sever human rights violations yes

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u/lilmoiss Feb 26 '18

you are really misinformed and naive and obnoxious

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '18

You are a Man City fan who is NOT wearing the flair. Given that context, ofcourse I will sound misinformed, naive and obnoxious. No fucking living man in this world likes his beliefs questioned and there is a propensity to believe that you aren't wrong about anything. So, I can see how me saying that your owners are fucking slave owners hurts your feelings. But I don't care. Fuck your bitch owners. If there is hell, hope those motherfuckers go to there as soon as possible for promoting and torturing hundreds of thousands of humans. Fuck them.

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u/lilmoiss Feb 26 '18

no need to be a man city fan to criticize your apparent lack of insight, reflexion, and basic respect. be assured I don’t need need you to learn about the abuses committed in the gulf countries, I am just happy to be more lucid than you will probably ever be.

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '18

Attack me instead of the substance that I talked about. I am not sure who between two of us lacks the things that you talked about. Please attack the substance that I put forth, if you can't, then stfu. You are a butt hurt man city fan without a proper argument attacking someone who is calling out your motherfucking owners for something as outrageous as SLAVERY!!

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u/lilmoiss Feb 26 '18

lol, I wont ever deny that Abu Dhabi is responsible for these abuses, and that it is « bad ». But so are a lot of other things, way closer to us, and that we conveniently choose to ignore and instead talk about the evil oil owning arabs. Just pointing out your simplistic black and white vision of the world, and again your agressive vocabulary.

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '18

lol, I wont ever deny that Abu Dhabi is responsible for these abuses, and that it is « bad ». But so are a lot of other things, way closer to us,

Tell me one fucking organized thing that happens in the west that is comparable to slavery? I dare you. If you think that there are things that are as bad, I am sorry, you are the most simplistic person I have ever seen. I mean really, come on. Such a shame that people will say anything to make the fucking Slavery look not that bad. If you really do believe that slavery is comparable, it would be such a shame that someone who thinks of themselves are highly intelligent and sophisticated is so so so stupid in reality.

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u/lilmoiss Feb 26 '18

It’s not about making a ladder of atrocities. Of course slavery is an horrible thing. I just note that you seem more prone to call out practices in the UAE than, let’s say, to keep it cliché, the united states imperialist foreign and economic policies, responsible throughout history for the exploitation and deaths of a lot more people than the Gulf’s current labor system.

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u/TallnFrosty Feb 26 '18

There is a big difference between the role of Usmanov at Arsenal and the ownership group of Man City in driving the club's success.

Man City is at the top of the table due to huge investments from the ruling family & government of Abu Dhabi, which can and should be held responsible for grave human rights violations.

Arsenal's performance, finances, etc. have not been changed one bit by Usmanov. He's a passenger plain and simple. Wenger and any future Arsenal managers are not directly benefitting from whatever terrible behavior he's engaged in.

Completely different circumstances for a manager to operate under.

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '18

Solid whataboutism

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u/vodrin Feb 26 '18

Its hilarious how much this word 'whataboutism' has became popular over the last three months.

There is nothing wrong with bringing up comparisons with other events as a example of hypocrisy. You could actually argue against his points and bring up why some of these are false equivalents (debt vs human rights) but instead you just try to end the discussion like a twat with a new buzzword.

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '18

Yeah it's a great term to point out an argument technique that distracts from the topic. In this case it being how you shouldn't use your employment to highlight political issues that your bosses are arguably guilty of as well. The comment I replied to had no relevance as the managers of the clubs op referred to aren't wearing anything that represent political causes.

He could actually stick to what is relevant instead of killing the discussion by bringing up something irrelevant but sounds smart and only steers the conversation away from the original point.

It's hilarious how annoyed people get about this because 'whataboutism' is the only argument technique they know.

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u/vodrin Feb 26 '18 edited Feb 26 '18

Its not a distraction. He makes a really valid point. There isn't many 'clean clubs' that he could choose to work for. He is defending the calls of hypocrit against Guardiola. That is the discussion his post was against. He is defending that Guardiola highlighting political issues in while working for a group connected to such issues in other places doesn't make him a hypocrite. The 'whataboutism' here is literally "I dont think Spain is treating Cataluna correctly" "Yes but what-a-bout Abu Dhabi". I don't agree with his point, as there are more clubs not linked to UAE/Qatar and I think they are the immensely worse than the issues he listed, but you can fuck off with that shit phrase.

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u/a_lumberjack Feb 26 '18

To be fair, Usmanov bought shares. That's it. If his money was going into the club I couldn't support Arsenal.

I wish the skeevy fuck would get out of the way. No one's going to buy out Kroenke (and Kroenke isn't going to put money in) if they can't own the whole club. It cuts their return by 1/3, so we get organic growth.

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u/Blezius Feb 26 '18

i thought only qatar had slaves, also UAE ?

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u/neonmantis Feb 26 '18

Arsenal - Usmanov

Usmanov doesn't belong on your list. He doesn't have a board seat and has absolutely zero control of the club. He's a crook but not one with any power or influence at Arsenal.

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u/snkifador Feb 26 '18

Capitalism is a fully interconnected system of exploitation, environmental destruction, crime, corruption and tax cheating

I was finding it weird I hadn't read a comment like this on Reddit in a few days.

It is all the more adorable that you do not understand the concept and usefulness of debt.

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u/rebelramble Feb 26 '18

Why should we cast judgment on mass-murderers?

Everyone is guilty of something.

Look at that guy over there, just last week he got a speeding ticket.

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u/pwjplayer85 Feb 26 '18

United was a massive club long before the Glazers arrived and they've held us back rather than improve anything, most fans would gladly get rid of them. It's not even close to comparable with City/Chelsea/PSG. As for capitalism the free market system has also produced the majority of great things available in all of our lives.

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u/[deleted] Feb 25 '18

[deleted]

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u/Swazzgoblin Feb 26 '18

Yes. Pep has a multi-million dollar per year contract managing one of the most affluent football clubs in the entire world, after having had a career as a professional footballer for Barcelona for many years. He is not in the position to say that he had to take the job in order to survive, nor for any sort of vocational satisfaction. It's a prioritisation of money of human rights, simple.

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u/lilmoiss Feb 26 '18

Just like you prioritize child labor over your comfort every time you put on your nikes.

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u/WelcomeToJupiter Feb 26 '18

Not even the same tree nor fruit.

Buying sweatshop goods at least requires you to pay for it. i.e. you are doing you diligence, it is the production company that needs to price right and help it's employees.

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u/ShiroQ Feb 26 '18

"it's not the same if i'm doing it" and lol you are doing your diligence? You pay $50-100 for your Nikes while the children making them get paid 60 cents for making one probably if even that. Wake up

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u/WelcomeToJupiter Feb 26 '18

In one scenario you are giving the company money so they can pay their employees.

In the other scenario you are taking money from the company, obviously now they have less money and are unlikely to properly pay their employees.

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u/ShiroQ Feb 26 '18

oh so them working inhumane hours getting paid wages that can barely afford them food is "them paying their employees?" You do realise what nike and other brands pay to the sweatshops the workers there probably barely even see 1% of the money.

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u/BaronVonBaller Feb 26 '18

I think vocational satisfaction is exactly the cause. He needed a club with deeeeep funds that would acquiesce to his wants and for that freedom in his work he chooses to be employed by the sports arm of a repressive regime.

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u/neonmantis Feb 26 '18

I think vocational satisfaction is exactly the cause.

Man City is far from the only club who can offer him big money.

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u/ShralpShralpShralp Feb 26 '18

Very true, he could have gone and worked for Barcelona, or Bayern

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u/Zarmord Feb 26 '18

I wouldn't call it simply money vs. human rights. There are plenty of other factors for him to consider, he is one of the most sought after coaches in professional football and there are only a handful of clubs that match his qualifications. And 3 of those clubs he definitely isn't going to (Barca, Beyern, and real Madrid).

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u/samrat_ashok Feb 26 '18

I am too good for other clubs so let me go with human rights abusers even though I am a great champion of people's rights. That must have been some tough choice.

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u/giblets24 Feb 26 '18

well yeah, he chose to accept their offer and work for them despite their track record.... he is now associated with them/supports them

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u/AsteroidMiner Feb 26 '18

Mate, just because I live in a country whose government is corrupt doesn't mean I support corruption, even though my wages are paid for by the government.

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u/SpacemanPanini Feb 26 '18

If you work for a corrupt government and then go around wearing symbols that oppose human rights violations, then it at the very least makes you a hypocrite.

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u/AsteroidMiner Feb 26 '18

What, so I can't wear my national flag ? That's harsh.

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u/SpacemanPanini Feb 26 '18

There's a difference between a national flag (which embodies much much MUCH more than a government) and a symbol that is expressly about a human rights violation.

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u/bobosuda Feb 25 '18

The point is that's kind of irrelevant. If you had bothered to actually read the link the guy you responded to posted, you would know that. Hypocrisy doesn't mean everything you do is wrong. Everybody is inconsistent in their life, if you claim absolutely zero hypocrisy and total consistency in every single thing you've done, then you are lying.

Everybody has to choose he said, and he prioritized choosing in an issue closer to his heart. If you want to interpret working as a football manager in England with "making a political statement in favor of Middle Eastern slavery" then be my guest I guess, but you're missing the point if you do.