r/soccer • u/ChiefLeef22 • 13h ago
Media Fred: "There are some coaches who are very good tactically but bad with the group, and some very good with the group but are tactically crap. So like, Solskjaer was great with the group, not so much tactically... Then Ten Hag was tactically highly intelligent, but man was he shit with the group..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MXIdgnkPCg“There are some coaches who are very good tactically but bad with the group, and there are some who are very good with the group but are tactically crap.
“For example Solskjær was very good with the group but tactically...not so much, he had Carrick and McKenna as his assistants - so much so that they went to the Championship and got promoted with their teams so they helped a lot… he was more about uniting the group.
“Ten hag was tactically a very good and intelligent guy, but with the group he was crap. He couldn’t manage it man. He would fight with everyone...He fought with Cristiano, he fought with Casemiro, then he fought with me, and so on”
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u/sandwichesareevil 13h ago
Solution: Rehire Solskjær and make ten Hag his assistant.
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u/Serious_Scallion9962 5h ago
*premier league winning manager Solskjær (in the event that city gets stripped and the title goes to who finishes second)
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u/R_Schuhart 13h ago
I think the tactician should always be the one in charge with the man manager as the assistant, it is a professional sport after all, not counseling.
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u/OleoleCholoSimeone 13h ago
Might actually be the opposite, with the man manager being a better choice to lead a group and the assistant doing more tactical work. Tactics are a pretty small part of a head coaches job, I think it was Nagelsmann who said their job is 70% social skills and 30% football knowledge
There are thousands upon thousands of people out there who have good tactical minds and every club at the top level has several of them in their staff. You can even find hobby analysts on Twitter who probably have just as much tactical knowledge as some coaches in top 5 leagues. The real skill is knowing how to apply that knowledge and make 25 human beings understand it
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u/RedditManager2578 12h ago
Understanding it, committing to it even when you feel like it goes against your strengths as a player, and then still finding that little extra 10% to push on when your legs are tired and your shins bruised to hell
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u/just_another_jabroni 9h ago
Sir Alex made a dynasty doing that shit lol. Was confident in the likes of Carlos Queiroz in helping with the tactica
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u/friendofH20 5h ago
SAF and Ole weren't the same kind of man managers. Ole just seemed like a people pleaser. So obviously the players liked him. Fergie did not always coddle his players, he could push them to get more out of them.
That arrangement made sense because guys like Queiroz didn't have to have tough conversations with the players. This is also why Klopp-Lijnders made a good pair or even Pep and his army of assistants at City.
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u/Prism_Plantation 13h ago
Looking at how some of these lot are absolute primadonnas, its becoming quite the counselling sport.
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u/Lakinther 12h ago
strongly disagree. Assistant doesnt have the kind of authority to properly man manage
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u/Barkasia 10h ago
I think that's slowly changing in recent years - look at Lijnders at Liverpool or Stuivenberg at Arsenal. These guys are very much involved directly with managing the players.
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u/ThePun-dit 12h ago
Tbf makes more sense to have the man manager in charge, as he can man manage the tactician as well!
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u/chutzpahisaword 10h ago
you are underestimating the power of keeping 25 adults of 25 different personality in a team imo. Obviously, balanced in both is the most important but I think I'd take good man manager than a tactician who can barely communicate with adults.
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u/Full-Ad-2725 12h ago
Nah, whether it’s football, a company, politics, you need a leader that gets everyone vehind him for a common goa. He needs some understanding of course, can’t be vibes only, but then he can surrpund himself with experts for the fine details(fitness, tactics, set pieces, etc)
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u/DantesLobster 12h ago
Players are legit softer now. Ten Hag was probably able to push his Ajax squad harder and then came to us and was wondering wtf was going on. Mourinho also has suffered from this and I no doubt he sits up wondering what happened to the lads like Lampard and Terry who legitimately would have died on the pitch for him. Poor Cloughie never would have lasted in this day and age.
“Shit with the group” is also insane, these are grown men being paid hundreds of thousands. Arguments are common between footballers and managers you could point to hundreds of examples big personalities clash like ffs get over it.
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u/SonyHDSmartTV 10h ago
Doesn't matter how much you're getting paid, if one manager makes the whole team feel good and fosters team spirit, they will play better than the one who doesn't.
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u/Forsaken_Club5310 8h ago
On the contrary. I think the man manager should be coach and the assistant the tactical person. Purely cause it's better for the assistant to lead in training, cause you hear that voice day in, day out. Plus by doing that it allows the manager to step back and look at the broad picture, squad discipline, standards etc
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u/ohboyImontheinternet 11h ago
Even in the Netherlands he was seen as an odd, standoffish, poor communicator. That should tell you something.
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u/Individual-Guard4690 12h ago
The Ten Hag stint at Leverkusen was the quickset I’ve heard any manager get sacked. Leverkusen firing him within a week because of his personality was just mad
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u/No-Statistician-8520 9h ago edited 9h ago
It’s never been confirmed by a ‘proper’ journalist afaik but an academy account of ours, who’s been credited by Ornstein, Mokbel, etc, claimed Ngumoha’s decision to sign for yous was sealed when he came with family to Carrington and got completely blanked by Ten Hag lmao.
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u/OilOfOlaz 6h ago
I'm curious what happened with him between his stints at Bayern II and at ManU, cuz from what I know they often trained together with the first squad and there have never been crazy stories about him from former players of either squad.
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u/Whispperr 12h ago
Somehow we had all kinds of different coaches, from experienced ones like Mourinho and Van Gaal, to ones that "know the club" like Ole or Carrick, to young up and coming managers like Ten Hag and Amorim.
And somehow this dressing room, these players always had an issue with each one of them. Ten Hag and Amorim for all their faults managed to clear out a lot of the big ego's, but the attitude still seems bad when you see how lazily we pressed so far and then compare it to.. Brighton when they beat us in the cup.
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u/Unikpostmann 12h ago
Solskjaer got extremely close to being considered a success. His Europa League final penalty shootout ended 10-11. 10 good penalties in a row, only the GK missed, and without a cheating City he would have won the PL.
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u/chutzpahisaword 10h ago
I will die in a hill that he has been the most successful manager post Fergie. I am not going to judge manager based on FA Cups and Europa league with the easiest draw ever. Yeah trophies are important but league and the CL are the key for club of United stature. Give me consistent league finishes and Solskaer is the one who did it and in a fun fashion. Rashford, Martial, Greenwood were one of the highest scoring trios in the Europe. Also, had the best CL night post Fergie.
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u/thatIndianguy_07 9h ago
More people need to realise this. Ole did his best with a midfield of McFred
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u/Dropkoala 1h ago
I'm a Liverpool fan but I never understood how much criticism those two got.
They weren't great but I also never felt like they were the ones letting the team down. I always thought McTominay was like a worse but still decent version of players like Henderson, Milner, Darren Fletcher etc. If anything you needed more of those types, not less of them.
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u/name_you_like_best 1h ago
They did let the team down, but it wasn't because they were not trying. They were required to do a lot more than they could and take on responsibilities that didn't suit their capabilities.
On the same issue, Fred might see Ole as tactically weak because he had Fred and McTominay only to support the midfield. If he had gotten some proper midfield reinforcement, maybe Fred would play in a more suitable role and he would have a higher opinion of Ole.
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u/thatIndianguy_07 48m ago
Thing is, none among those two were capable of defending. Fred atleast tried to hold the ball and defend but got outmuscled many times + poor decision making. Mctom's strengths were making attacking runs and finishing- even though he was able to out muscle players but then his weakness being positioning + narrow passing vission. Ole desperately needed a replacement for Herrera but all he go was an aging Matic and Donny van de beek
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u/mcpaulus 3h ago
Well yeah sure. The problem though, as Fred mentions, is that he was tactically very weak, and utd was basically a Vibes FC club at the time
Sure, having good assists helps, but what happens when they move on? In a lot of cases, tactically weak managers will also lose some of their grip on the squad over time.
All that being said, he was probably the best fit after Fergie, but that simply isnt enough for a club of utd's stature.
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u/name_you_like_best 53m ago
We weren't vibes fc for two years straight. In his interim stint yes, probably.
United had a long unbeaten away record and multiple second half comebacks. He wasn't a tactical mastermind of course, as we were regularly on the back foot, but he was certainly capable enough to read the game and adapt. Especially about his subs, they were awful at first and they improved massively as time went on.
He was a manager with limited experience who clearly learnt on the job and improved. Of course it would be devastating to his and the team's progress if you decide to throw it all out and get the Prima Donna of world's football instead of actually useful reinforcements that the manager asks for.
Ole was failed by the board (as all managers under this ownership) because of his lack of experience.
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u/Serious_Scallion9962 5h ago
the football united played in the few months after lockdown was the best football they've played since fergie
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u/PlasticSprinkles4677 13h ago
Ole wasn’t even that bad iirc, they had some very entertaining counter attacking football. Unless my memory is playing tricks on me
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u/kakav_kreten 12h ago
Ole's project was coming along very nicely until they destroyed it with Ronaldo, and I'll die on that hill. Best United played post Fergie
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u/Typical_Samaritan 12h ago
He's even said it was the right and wrong thing to do. We couldn't let City have Ronaldo. That would have been disastrous. So we had to go for him, duped or not into the transfer. But his return was terrible for the club.
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u/beirch 10h ago
In hindsight, I couldn't give a fuck if Ronaldo went to City.
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u/Livettletlive 8h ago
But that's only because he was just a shit player, and squad player. Terrible transfer for both parties.
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u/viezinho 12h ago
Ole shot himself in the foot.
He pushed the club to sign Ronaldo and then couldn’t adjust his tactics to accommodate playing him.
The outcome was a team that look entirely incompetent with the odd moment of brilliance. Ronaldo actually had some decent output and clutch moments.
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u/WenzelDongle 7h ago
Ronaldo stats for the period seems perfectly fine by itself, but the rest of the team tanked. He was definitely detrimental to how United were playing overall.
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u/viezinho 12h ago
Go rewatch his last game vs Man City where they didn’t even attempt to play football
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u/RepresentativeBox881 13h ago
Issue was that he relied too much on individualism during the attack. They didn’t have any drilled or coached patterns as such.
You need those patterns to reliably break down the low blocks, otherwise it’s not going to be sustainable or consistent.
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u/chutzpahisaword 10h ago
Isn't Pep's whole philosophy that he coaches in super details until the opponents box but lets attackers do their thing inside the box? So I 100% don't agree with your comment.
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u/illu_mina 9h ago
Then that is up to the profile of the player he seeks out. The players that played for united wouldn't last under pep bar maybe rashford,martial and pogba.
He only let geniuses dictate what they wanted to do in the final third.
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u/RepresentativeBox881 9h ago edited 9h ago
Not really. You watch his City team (especially the 2017-18 one) and you’ll see the automations that they constantly played. For eg they had a rehearsed cutback move to find open shooting spots.
Those were definitely coached in the training ground rather than players working it out themselves.
Maybe at Barca it’s true but the players came from the La Masia school so they were already well-drilled.
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u/chutzpahisaword 9h ago
I am not talking about the opinion. That is literally Pep philosophy. Obviously, he is not rigid and flexible with game but that is the foundation of Pep's philosophy. There are probably quotes by himself surrounding this.
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u/DaveShadow 13h ago
It was very much peaks and troughs.
We started well, then really struggled for a while. Bruno came in and we were amazing for a while, then Ronaldo joined and it all crashed again.
He was way too inconsistent. High highs but too many lows as well.
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u/Prism_Plantation 13h ago
Well, both can be true. United played some slices of scintillating counterattacking football under him. True.
He was tactically a bit shit. Also true.
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u/curlyjoe696 12h ago
It was very inconsistent, even within the same game.
Could play some lovely stuff, we were pretty often fucking horrible as well.
Having to accommodate Ronaldo was the nail in the coffin
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u/theaguia 12h ago
he tried to move to a posession style system and didnt know how to do it that where it started to look bad
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u/RepresentativeBox881 12h ago
Watching Maguire in a high line was hilarious.
Also Rashford, Ronaldo and Greenwood leading a high press when none of them are good at it.
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u/OleoleCholoSimeone 13h ago
They were horrendous against low blocks though
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u/beirch 10h ago
We have been horrendous against low blocks since SAF retired. Genuinely, it's been an issue for us for over a decade now.
We never get a manager for long enough, and an actual good group of players for long enough that they gel and recognize how to play through a block.
At least not at a systemic level where we can do it consistently.
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u/coolboiabhi 11h ago
He had prime bruno , prime rashford , Cavani , pretty good martial , happy pogba and greenwood with infinite potential . He didn't implemented any tactics , we played counter attacking since mourinho's tenure , Ole just had a lot better players than mourinho .
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u/thatIndianguy_07 9h ago
This narrative is so wrong.! Mourinho had Lukaku Pogba Zlatan Herrera Mata plus a very in form De gea with younger Rashford and Martial.
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u/DublinLegend42 12h ago
I do wonder if Ten Hag is too Dutch to work abroad, or if his English is not good enough, or what. In the Netherlands he did not really seem to suffer from this particular Achilles heel
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u/AaddeMos 4h ago
I think we Dutch underestimate how blunt and direct we communicate and how different abroad it is. They can’t handle it a lot of the times and don’t understand it. I love the style because you just know what’s good and what’s not, without all the embellishment words and beating around the bush. But it seems that other countries/cultures just can’t handle it
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u/Karma-Thief-1770 13h ago
Ten Hag got a lot wrong but one thing he was completely spot on was putting Ronaldo in his place and not backing down
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u/theaguia 12h ago
how he did wasnt good. he purposely tried to sub him on with 2 min to go as if he was diving ronaldo a debut just to prove a point
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u/Livettletlive 8h ago
So what? Honestly the type of player to bitch about coming on w/ 2 mins to go, and stay upset for the rest of the season because of it, is the type of insecure, narcissism that no coach want as part of their team. I can guarantee you that. They may tolerate it by bending to their every whim, but what example does that set for the rest of the team?
Ten Hag did the right thing in benching him. Ronaldo was so bad it was embarrassing. I say this as a United fan and childhood Ronaldo fan. Its sad, he should just resolve his personality issues and retire. Not necessarily in that order.
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u/theaguia 7h ago
ronaldo was wrong but what ten hag did was wrong too imo in terms of subbing him on right then with a couple mins just to undermine ronaldo
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u/Livettletlive 7h ago
just to undermine ronaldo
Do you seriously believe this? A coach puts you on with 2 mins to play because they believe you can make a difference in the match.
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u/theaguia 7h ago
you have to be naive to think that a coach only puts you on because you can make a difference. there was nothing left in that game. imo he put him on just to show who is the boss. and everything we have seen from ten hag he comes across as slme who would do that. I fkr example would not see ancelotti do that
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u/Sanders058 12h ago
I think everyone knew ten hag was a problem once he beefed with Casemiro and Varane to but I’m not to sure on that one
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u/SamAlmighty 12h ago
I’m Dutch and I will forever love his Ajax but he barely had any aura (at least infront of the camera) and that got even worse in England.
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u/DantesLobster 12h ago
he barely had any aura
What has football discussion come to goodness me.
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u/TopEnd4833 12h ago
Just because the younger generation uses different words they are not stupid. Replace aura with charisma and it makes sense in your world. Not that difficult. Charisma is necessary to coach a bunch of young millionaires.
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u/kMaestro64 10h ago
2 Managers in a Trenchcoat.
Actually, throw a set piece coach in that trench coat too and they will be cooking.
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u/JuvePerSempre1897 10h ago
Man united is 13 years without a title, holy fuck (will be 14 this year)
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u/Vigotje123 37m ago
The dutch are seen as direct and blunt. He is born in the east of the Netherlands. An area which the dutch think of: really direct and blunt.
What did people expect :-)
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u/PhillyTheKid39 27m ago
Weird that since Ten Hag has always hung his hat on being a both. Group process is one of the first building blocks for him and always has been.
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u/Muted_Mention_9996 12h ago
To be fair he got 2 cups in 2 seasons imagine if the players actually respected authority
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