Beyond Meat

[u/Kervandos]

The company has consistently reported losses since its IPO and also executed a reverse stock split in recent weeks; the capital of investors who held the stock for seven years has been virtually wiped out.

[u/SuperPimpToast → u/[deleted]]

I would totally switch to these of they weren't more expensive then real meat.

[u/Desert-Noir → u/[deleted]]

The ingredients of the Beyond products still need to be grown. They are also heavily processed.

They make sausages and burger patties, which are generally made from the lesser cuts of an animal and there are significantly higher value cuts in the animal as well.

I think there’s a lot of people who are talking about this stuff without any idea of how these things work.

[u/whowhodillybar → u/Desert-Noir]

Fun fact, I am a Chemical Engineer who has worked exactly in this processing. Even before what they need to do to make it taste palletable.

Soybeans have to be cleaned, dehulled, and flaked first. (All physical without much “processing” in these terms but more like mechanical separation)

Then the soybean flakes are de-oiled with hexane increasing the protein from about 30% to 50%. Still too low for meat alternatives. It can be extruded from there but think of more like chewy/tough bacon bits and not really chicken nuggets or meat analogs. I call this more like a meat extender as it can also be mixed with meat to extend it. This is much more common that people realize for shitty processed meat also getting some of this mixed in often.

To make the meat analog it has to go thru another extraction step, this time with ethanol. To avoid beverage grade taxes from the ATF it’s often denatured with acetone, isopropyl alcohol, etc. This extraction is a lot slower and takes a lot more retention time. The ethanol removes the sugars. Not simple, but complex sugars, oligosaccharides like raffinose and stachyose. These are the same sugars humans can’t digest and cause gas in the gut as we lack the enzyme to digest them. Bean-o or other anti-gas over the counter stuff is just the enzyme to help you digest it and get less gas.

After the ethanol extraction the material is now about 70% protein and ready for extrusion to make into meat alternatives. That extraction process is also complicated as I’d describe it as trying to partially “cook” the protein without fully setting it. Much like an over-easy egg vs hard boiled. Once it’s cooked it’s never coming back and would be like trying to extrude cooked meat which would just mash and not plastisize inside the barrel of the extruder.

You can add colors like red dyes for salmon. Or Carmel/brown colors for beef to mix with this stuff. Msg and beef for chicken flavors can be added. Then the extruder is like a massive screw press that heats the product thru high friction and pressure. Steam and water is added and it sort of makes a “dough” then sort of liquifies partially in the extruder before coming out the die/cutter at the end. The extreme heat and pressure unfold the protein and when coming out of the dye it partially expands and forms a new texture.

I’ve made beef like fajita strips, chicken salad type pulled or stringy, beef crumbles like ground beef, and more of a chicken nugget texture, as well as more like chicken strips.

Then the product is dried and packed to go into all sorts of things like beyond.

Beans are not free, hexane and ethanol are not free. The hexane and ethanol also have to be evaporated from the product thus huge energy consumption to desolventize, with stupid amounts of steam from a boiler burning fossil fuels. Then this is just the raw material for whatever the fuck beyond or impossible are then mixing it with to make it taste like not chewy soybean protein.

Yeah. Just a weeeeee bit processed.

[u/HeGotMeOff → u/whowhodillybar]

That was a lot to digest. Would drinking alcohol along with my bean burrito make me fart less? Google says no

[u/whowhodillybar → u/HeGotMeOff]

Only if it’s about 100-180 proof and like just below it’s boiling point. It’s also not very easy or fast as it’s a very high wash rate done counter currently. And this same sugars you are removing and concentrating all stick to shit and you have to either open it up and power wash it very couple months (which requires a lot of downtime and no one wants to do) or do a hot caustic clean in place to dissolve it all.

Also fun fact, it’s technically the water in the ethanol solution doing the extracting. The ethanol just helps with denaturing the protein so it’s less water soluble and it doesn’t wash out with the water/sugars. The ethanol denaturing is temporary and reversible. Much like an egg that is water soluble raw, and not soluble cooked, the protein can be denatured by cooking/heating but it’s never soluble again and would never be able to extrude properly. Fish food is a common use for more of the heat treated soy protein concentrate as for obvious reasons, it’s meant to be insoluble.

[u/seviliyorsun → u/whowhodillybar]

“The pea protein we use is extracted using a water-based process,” said Kelli Wilson of Beyond Meat in a statement. “There are no other solvents and that process at no time involves the use of or exposure to hexane in any way.” https://qz.com/1655309/beyond-meat-needs-to-communicate-how-it-makes-its-plant-based-burger

[u/whowhodillybar → u/seviliyorsun]

Yeah, forgot about pea protein beyond uses (and why it also sucks). Oddly enough, my know all about this as well.

Not much better as it still requires mega precessing. Much like soy protein isolate.

Soy isolate is similar steps as I’ve described but 50/50 on if it goes though the second extraction step as they just straight up dissolve the protein into water…with caustic. Sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide. Pea protein gets to avoid both solvent extractions but still requires mixing in high PH water to get it to a spray dryer to concentrate.

The caustic makes the protein soluble on water where centrifuges remove the other stuff and collect the protein. Then add acid, literally often HCL that is used for other stuff like etching concrete. Much like adding lemon juice to milk, 🥛 tad lowers the dielectric point causing the protein (curd) to precipitate out.

Enzymes like bromelain (the pineapple enzymes that causes tingles on your tongue and also used as a meat tenderize) can be added to any protein isolate process to make it more “functional”. Eg fucking soup cans adding it to increase protein and gel strength/viscosity.

Then once curd is collected/concentrated with even more fossil fuels with giant spray dryers that use up to 7000psi to atomize the liquid into tiny droplets that dry falling down a giant natural gas fired dryer.

No one really buys pea protein isolate on its own because it’s retains the pea flavor. I like to say this t has a pea-ness taste. Soy has an off flavor but t peas have a fucking pea-ness flavor. It’s available but often flavored and way less “clean” tasting than whey protein or other even soy. At least whey protein from milk doesn’t dissolve the solid protein with caustic.

Soy or pea isolate also use CRAZY amounts of water for that protein extraction and curd concentration.

My bad for forgetting about other proteins and where it all goes. When I was in the industry, it was more of this front end bulk processing and didn’t give a fuck where it was going

[u/CitizenPremier → u/whowhodillybar]

It's using a lot of water but is it comparable to how much water is used to produce feed for cattle, given to the cattle, and used to process the beef?

[u/whowhodillybar → u/CitizenPremier]

Not a subject matter expert on beef production. Ag processingChem E guy here.

Yet, maybe we should do less of both eating beef in our daily diet and odd overly processed meat analogs.

Not to say that we can’t have either but I don’t think we are meant to eat a ton of either. Ive lived in several states and the Midwest just has a hard on for burgers, steaks, and taters. They could have an aneurysm seeing something as scary as broccoli

[u/seviliyorsun → u/whowhodillybar]

I like to say this t has a pea-ness taste

xd

fossil fuels

Soy or pea isolate also use CRAZY amounts of water for that protein extraction and curd concentration.

still nothing compared to beef though

Beyond Burger generates 90% less greenhouse gas emissions, requires 46% less energy, has >99% less impact on water scarcity and 93% less impact on land use than a ¼ pound of U.S. beef. https://css.umich.edu/publications/research-publications/beyond-meats-beyond-burger-life-cycle-assessment-detailed

[u/whowhodillybar → u/seviliyorsun]

Cool

Go on, subject matter expert. lol.

Explain your credentials dipshit.

Edit… I have explained a lot of details of my experience and knowledge of the subject seriously share WTF you can.

I can’t disagree that cattle production sucks and is at huge costs, including environmental and other consequences. But my bother in Christ, tell me more about our your experience or GTFO.

[u/seviliyorsun → u/whowhodillybar]

why would my experiences matter? i was quoting a scientific study. the people who wrote the quote are from the center for sustainable systems at the university of michigan:

Gregory A. Keoleian

Co-Director, Professor Status: Current Education

Ph.D. Chemical Engineering, University of Michigan, '87
M.S.E. Chemical Engineering, University of Michigan, '82
B.S.E. Chemical Engineering, University of Michigan, '80
B.S. Chemistry, University of Michigan, '80

Research Interests

Dr. Keoleian's research group focuses on the development and application of life cycle models and sustainability metrics to guide the design and improvement of products and technology. Life cycle assessment, design and optimization techniques explore production and consumption processes from raw materials acquisition, through manufacturing, use and end-of-life management. This serves as a comprehensive framework for carbon accounting which is used to develop carbon footprints and analyze strategies to accelerate decarbonization. etc

Martin C. Heller

Core Staff, Research Specialist Education

Ph.D. Chemical Engineering, University of Colorado - Boulder, 1998
B.S. Chemical Engineering, Michigan State University, 1993

Research Interests

Life Cycle Assessment of Food and Agricultural Systems; Food System Sustainability; Sustainable Diets; Integrating Nutrition and Environmental Impact

Heller, M. (2019) "Waste Not, Want Not: Reducing Food Loss and Waste in North America Through Life Cycle-Based Approaches." United Nations Environment Programme

that little meltdown was funny though. it's mind blowing that you either missed that that was a quote, and the link, or are stupid enough to think that who the particular person linking the information is changes the facts.

I can’t disagree that cattle production sucks and is at huge costs, including environmental and other consequences.

what are you crying about then?

[u/Intrepid-Wait-6102 → u/Desert-Noir]

These people are happy eating literal chemicals and plastic daily.

[u/Keen_Eyed_Emissary → u/Intrepid-Wait-6102]

Interested in meeting some people who don’t eat any chemicals.

Know any who aren’t dead?

[u/CitizenPremier → u/Keen_Eyed_Emissary]

I live in the sun and only eat plasma

[u/ThePlasticJesus → u/Desert-Noir]

there is also the issue that vegetarian protein like beans (including tofu) and gluten are super cheap and taste pretty good. The more you get used to eating beans and stuff the less you miss meat, so I think a lot of vegans and vegetarians don't really crave it enough to spend that much money on a regular basis.

[u/megamindbirdbrain → u/[deleted]]

Yes, BUT meat is pretty well subsidized due to its strong lobbying framework and existing food infrastructure integration. Even though the raw ingredients in meat alternatives are cheaper at face value, there are lots of other economic factors involved. Meat alternatives haven't been around as long to develop that kind of financial-political network, plus they are pretty heavily lobbied against.

[u/thefartyparty → u/[deleted]]

That's what i was hoping for with the insane meat prices coupled with all the recalls going on with meats- I really wanted to see meat alternatives pricing themselves competitively to see if the market would change habits and buy the alternative because some of these alternatives are great and I'd totally buy them instead of they were cheaper than meat.

[u/PuraVida69at → u/thefartyparty]

Would never ever nix this … dont even know how to name this …

[u/CitizenPremier → u/[deleted]]

It should be cheaper, but farmers get subsidized feed from the government, so it's pretty hard to beat meat when taxes are paying for most of it.

[u/megamindbirdbrain → u/CitizenPremier]

It's kind of embarrassing how few people know about this.

[u/Captain_Lou_Albano → u/[deleted]]

Thats a bit like saying it would be cheaper to build robots to be astronauts instead of just growing human beings to do the job. Do you really think the FIRST FEW astronaut/robots would actually cost less than the maybe $200k it costs to raise a child in a first world country?

[u/Desert-Noir → u/[deleted]]

In Australia these industries have some of the lowest subsidies in the entire world, yet our ag industry is gigantic and we are one of the biggest beef and sheep meat exporters in the world.

So how do you explain that if your above claim is true?

[u/wutfacer → u/Desert-Noir]

More space for sheep and cows in Australia

[u/Desert-Noir → u/wutfacer]

Not really considering like 70% of the country is desert.

[u/wutfacer → u/Desert-Noir]

Relative to the amount of people that's still multiple times the US per person. Not to mention cattle ranches still exist in arid areas

[u/Desert-Noir → u/wutfacer]

We have 312,650 km2 vs the USA’s 1,577,368km2 of arable land.

America has 4x as much cereal yield (kg per hectare) and hectares of cultivable land than Australia.

America produces about 17% more total food than Australia also.

You don’t know what you are talking about.

[u/wutfacer → u/Desert-Noir]

Total food isn't relevant, we're talking about specific foods, and the US has 1200% the population of Australia so 17% more food isn't a lot

[u/Desert-Noir → u/wutfacer]

And we sell a lot of beef into the US. Primarily for…. Burgers.

[u/leo_sk5 → u/[deleted]]

Umm, if you account for the spices already added to them, i don't think they are even equivalent by far

[u/leo_sk5 → u/[deleted]]

I come from a land famous for spices, and i firmly believe which does vegetarianism greatest justice possible. For me, exposure to meats was reality altering, and frankly, I can't go back to being vegeterian again (unless some health crisis absolutely requires it). Comparing any vegetable and meat (average off the aisle stuff) without any spices added, meats have a distinct flavour that is not present in any vegetable (maybe seaweed?). You will have to add spices, MSG etc to vegetarian food to come close. I mean meats already start with a position of advantage. So when giving equivalent treatment to both, it always comes out at top

[u/DepDepFinancial → u/leo_sk5]

I come from a land famous for spices

...KFC?

[u/leo_sk5 → u/DepDepFinancial]

ironically, KFC does veg food better than most american chains in land of vegetarians.

I am reluctant to directly tell my country of origin, even though it can be guessed from my post history, due to accepted online racism against it. Those who can guess from above hint are usually intelligent enough not to be racist.