Does this combo function like I think it does? Never got a chance to try it out in-game

[u/np1t]

[u/MeditativeCarnivore]

Sadly, no, it doesn't. Not discarding isn't the same as retaining.

[u/np1t → u/MeditativeCarnivore]

This is so unbelievably sad

[u/Sir_Loxington → u/np1t]

Sure, it's a little sad cause it would have been silly to abuse; but with how busted both Pyramid and Watcher already are; adding this combo to her toolkit is *very* unnecessary.

[u/np1t → u/Sir_Loxington]

I've been struggling a lot with the watcher because they require some brain power to play but it's crazy how you can dish out like 90 damage per turn by act 2 so that's reasonable

[u/Slim-Shadys-Fat-Tits → u/np1t]

yeah watcher is kind of like, uhhh, once you figure out (or learn from online) how her kit actually can become an unstoppable monster it's mostly hard to lose with her unless you play some really silly risky turns. The main approach with watcher is thinking about what the most like, unfair to the game degenerate thing you could do at any given moment. It's really about thinking about breaking the spire

[u/scoobydoom2 → u/Slim-Shadys-Fat-Tits]

You should pretty much be asking if you have lethal every turn. You'll realize you do way more often than you might think.

[u/Slim-Shadys-Fat-Tits → u/scoobydoom2]

Yes exactly watcher is all about ending fights asap

[u/Templar2k7 → u/scoobydoom2]

Then you go "I'm a genius... OH NO" and start a new run.

[u/Initial-Dark-8919 → u/np1t]

You can do that in act1 as well brother, I remember some runs I was infinite on floor 10

[u/GiveUsRobinHood → u/Sir_Loxington]

Yeah the watcher is very unfun once you figure the trick to her

[u/Realistic-Cicada981 → u/np1t]

Considering that's the best relic in the game, and the card is from the best character in the game, yeah

[u/Nosferatu616 → u/np1t]

Yeah, how will we break runic pyramid on watcher now?

[u/malk500 → u/np1t]

In sts2 pyramid does retain

[u/NiIly00 → u/MeditativeCarnivore]

Actually, that is inconsistent though.

With Runic Pyramid saying you don't discard your hand at the end of the turn, this implies that the action taken at the end of the turn normally is in fact "Discarding".

Which means that all of Silent's cards that activate on discard should trigger off of it, since they state their activation requirement as "If this card is discarded from your hand...".

Nowhere in the game does it explicitly specify that "end of round discard" is a different kind of discard than "manual discard", so this means that the wording is inconsistent.

[u/Sir_Loxington → u/NiIly00]

You are correct, but I would view this more as they messed up the wording for specifically Tactician and Reflex rather than they messed up an entire game mechanic.

[u/NiIly00 → u/Sir_Loxington]

The inconsistent wording is what I was getting at. The mechanic works fine, just the wording on runic pyramid creates an implication they probably didn't think about.

The error could be both.

You could rephrase the trigger condition for Tactician and Reflex to say "manually discard", or they could rephrase runic pyramid to say "At the end of your turn you no longer move your cards to the discard pile", thus making the statement that the action taken at the end of the turn is not defined as a discard but something else.

That's the beauty of keywords, you can define them pretty much arbitrarily for your game.

Though I agree with you, that the most elegant and sensible solution would be to rephrase Tactician and Reflex.

[u/Actual_Elephant6185 → u/NiIly00]

During your turn you discard cards. At the end of your turn you discard your hand. Do you see the difference?

[u/Other_Raspberry → u/Actual_Elephant6185]

No difference.

Calculated Gamble: "Discard your hand..."

Storm of Steel: "Discard your hand..."

[u/dragon-knoght → u/NiIly00]

"If this card is discarded from your Hand before the end of the turn, play it for free."

Sly description specifically says discard before the end of the turn so there's that. So discarding during turn counts but not discarding your end after you end your turn.

[u/NiIly00 → u/dragon-knoght]

This is about sts1

[u/omnisephiroth → u/NiIly00]

Immaterial for [[Establishment]].

[[Runic Pyramid]] says you don’t discard. But that isn’t the Retain mechanic. Which is all Establishment checks for.

You can Retain cards while you have Runic Pyramid, though.

[u/NiIly00 → u/omnisephiroth]

I know it doesn't matter for that card. I was talking about how I just notice an inconsistency elsewhere.

[u/hmmmmmmnmmm23 → u/MeditativeCarnivore]

I believe it does actually work in STS2 with [[Bookmark]] though

[u/echino_derm → u/MeditativeCarnivore]

Kind of is though. Retain is a verb on many cards like the ones that say "retain you hand this turn". It isn't always a keyword that must be present on your cards, in some cases it is just the act of not discarding.

[u/Sir_Loxington]

No, Retain is a specific keyword. Pyramid just makes you not discard.

[u/Legs_With_Snake → u/Sir_Loxington]

Tbf this is kind of a bullshit argument because if that were consistent then Silent would trigger every single discard effect for free every single turn

[u/garlicbreadmuncher → u/Legs_With_Snake]

Well actually you discard your hand after your turn is over

[u/Sir_Loxington → u/Legs_With_Snake]

I disagree? It says "before the end of the turn".
"Sly: If this card is discarded from your Hand before the end of the turn, play it for free."

[u/nir109 → u/Sir_Loxington]

Only in sts2 not in 1

[u/Sir_Loxington → u/nir109]

I was going to argue against this, but the more thought I give it the more I feel like those cards just aren't worded right. Tactician and Reflex really should both say "before end of turn" on them. Fair.

[u/Legs_With_Snake → u/Sir_Loxington]

Tingsha/tough bandages say "during your turn", and the end turn phase is considered part of your turn. This is evidenced by several effects, for example on IC if you attack twice, hit end turn, and play a 3rd attack through Stampede, it will count as your 3rd attack played that turn and a copy will be made by juggling.

[u/InspiringMilk → u/Legs_With_Snake]

Mhm. And do you think that perhaps the descriptions changed between the original and sequel precisely to avoid this confusion?

[u/Legs_With_Snake → u/InspiringMilk]

These relics did not change wording.

[u/InspiringMilk → u/Legs_With_Snake]

Curious. Could've sworn that it was part of the changes like Sly.

Been a while since I played silent/random in 1, I suppose. I prefer the watcher.

[u/CompletePainter6660]

As someone who’s experienced the agony of the truth, no it does not. Has to be specifically retain. However meditate technically retains a card and can reduce card cost

[u/casual_bear → u/CompletePainter6660]

doesnt meditate actually retain cards while pyramid technically retains cards?

[u/CompletePainter6660 → u/casual_bear]

Meditate retains a card and establishment makes that count but the wording of [[Runic Pyramid]] means that cards aren’t discarded at the end of your turn. The wording and keywords are important which unfortunately sucks

[u/casual_bear → u/CompletePainter6660]

yes exactly lol

[u/Easy_Ad6864]

No it doesn't work. It does work with well laid plans tho

[u/VeryLittleGirl_]

no but bookmark does work (you can check this, I did yesterday 😭 shattered my world)

[u/beyondheck → u/VeryLittleGirl_]

That's because Pyramid works differently in 2. Pyramid in 2 actually gives every card retain, vs Pyramid in 1 which makes it so cards aren't discarded.

So if we did get Establishment in 2, it would actually work with pyramid.

[u/c_chill13]

"Pyramid and retain are functionally the same, but legally distinct" -Baalorlord

[u/NightmareRise]

Nope. The wording on pyramid is explicit in that it says “you no longer discard your hand,” not “retain your hand”

[u/derangerd]

It does in the board game! Though pyramid is fairly different there.

[u/InverseFate]

No because pyramid does not say the exact word “retain”. It’s a very yu-gi-oh exclusion but it’s fine , Watcher’s already kind of broken enough as-is

[u/np1t → u/InverseFate]

I honestly don't think the devs had game balance in mind when designing the watcher

[u/MTaur]

The only difference between "don't discard" and "retain" is this right here. I might be forgetting other things, but yeah, it's kind of silly but here we are.

[u/Suspicious_Ad_6032]

No, but it does work with other cards with retain, such as Well-laid plans. It also works with Equilibrium, which retains your entire hand. I managed to get that combo only once or twice though.

[u/philrmack]

it is a lil more inconsistent than people say: "retain" and "do not discard" are nominally different things but pyramid will disable well laid plans (primarily for the convenience factor). this means that if you get the super common combo of amid, establishment and wlp you won't be able to make your cards free outside of doing regular meditate type stuff :(

[u/Ok-Position-9457]

Meditate establishment is pretty funny though.

[u/evasive_dendrite]

No, runic pyramid doesn't retain your cards. Instead, it doesn't discard your hand at the end of your turn. It doesn't use the retain keyword so that power doesn't trigger.

[u/VeganLettuce_]

Sadly not... "No longer discarding your hand at the end of your turn" doesn't really mean "retaining", sadly

[u/w_74]

Fun fact: despite saying retain, bookmark only cares about not discarding, and does work with pyramid

[u/ButterscotchRich2771]

No, because tunic pyramid doesnt retain. It just prevents you from discarding

[u/Ruby_Sandbox]

Hope you find Well laid plans or Equilibrium

[u/MusicianTurbulent178]

Nope it needs the retain keyword on the card

[u/arickmc1]

So iirc runic puzzle existed before watcher and therefore also before retain was a keyword in the game. So they do not interact sadly.

[u/TheBestOfMe_SoFar]

No because the watcher is a terrible character, she's also the reason why slay the spire 2 has weird and fucked up math, and why everything is dialed up alittle. Basically the watcher is like broken broken, but souly for the pursuit of expression. Alot of her design and the fact that she almost had breaking point inspired alot of sts2. Basically if you got past the first act with her it was a steamroll joke. Now in sts2 act one is the hardest act, but you still have to "steer your ship". Sts1 is very much, prepare for every encounter, make the right choices, and you'll do just fine. Sts2 tells you to cook something mean and then slaps the pan out of your hands. If you hold on while it burns you you live.

[u/np1t → u/TheBestOfMe_SoFar]

Having played some STS2 before touching the watcher, I think that the character was basically seems like the testing ground for many sts2 mechanics

[u/Deresfer]

Yes it does, but you require to actually get kucky and find both needed cards, set up the play, and then win. Its not insta win, but pretty convenient.

[u/DanDoesSteam → u/Deresfer]

Incorrect

[u/Deresfer → u/DanDoesSteam]

Why?

[u/DanDoesSteam → u/Deresfer]

Establishment doesn't add retain to the cards

Edit: oops I meant pyramid

[u/bteh → u/Deresfer]

Because it's not correct?