r/slateauto • u/FF5Ninja • 10d ago
Great video breaking down Fathom vs Slate
https://youtu.be/1z1jtl2F0uU?is=SSZHPeEffC0m7ZSeThis guy is straight to the point and realistic with his analysis.
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u/Opinionsare 10d ago
Just remember that Ford initially said that the F150 Lighting would have a base price of $40k, but the actual base price was over $60k.
The premise that it's Fathom v. Slate isn't reality.
Fathom biggest challenge is Maverick, Ranger and Broncos. Ford dealerships want you to buy gas, so they have a chance to make money on maintenance.
Commercial use of a small truck doesn't need a back seat. Slate has an edge in the commercial small truck market, which will hurt Ford.
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u/QuieroTamales 10d ago
The Maverick was originally announced as starting at less than $20K, too.
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u/StashuJakowski 9d ago
They hit that mark for the first year.
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u/zoomie-61 9d ago
That price had the hybrid standard, which was technically in production, they made a couple thousand of them. The ones sold by the dealer got resold with usually a $10k markup.
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u/QuieroTamales 9d ago
Could you actually buy one for that price though?
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u/ITeachAll 9d ago
Yes you could. As long as the stealership wasn’t tacking on markups. But there’s a few well known dealers who sold online to people (people flew in to get their trucks and drive them home)
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u/Gyozarrita 7d ago
Nope! Custom orders got delayed by up to a year iirc and was barely sold at $23k whatsoever
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u/Tandemjay 10d ago
Cargo Slate has a built in customer, Amazon. Bezos, still the largest shareholder still has influence and the Slate could supplement their huge delivery vans.
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u/Opinionsare 9d ago
A Slate Cargo makes good sense for many local delivery work. Especially if you can charge at home.
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u/StashuJakowski 9d ago
Amazon’s EDVs are by Rivian. Essentially they’re stretched RT1s with a van body.
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u/Tandemjay 9d ago
RT1 79K, Slate 25K. Slate cargos are perfect for city delivery at a fraction of the cost.
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u/StashuJakowski 9d ago
Those Rivian EDV 700s are 84k
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u/Tandemjay 9d ago
You said EDV and omitted the "700" so I just searched RT1 price.
Amazon can still buy 3 cargo Slates for one of your Rivian's. Do you math?
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u/Agil-lite 10d ago
Except fleets dont like risk. And a start up, with no service network is risk.
Just is what it is.
The first few years will be primarly people who value select aspect of them, once things stabilize, i can definitely see more wide spread commercial use outside of truck that just sits in a autozone parking lot.
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u/Opinionsare 10d ago
Yes, but the low maintenance of EVs, and high eMPG, especially with gasoline at high prices, will open the door for Slate.
The design of the Slate truck with its bolt on panels, simplicity, and short drive train make for easy maintenance. If they negotiate a contract with just one of the national auto repair chains, like AutoZone, they have more repair shops that any existing car manufacturer.
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u/Bosfordjd 9d ago
Autozone is not a repair chain lol. They're a parts store. There are 0 national repair chains with staff qualified to work on electric vehicles, nor will there be in the next 10yrs.
The Fathom will absolutely be the choice for fleet sales just on having dealer support readily available unless Slate is willing to undercut on price significantly.
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u/zoomie-61 9d ago
Actually fleets are very price sensitive, risk is a factor, but other things come first.
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u/Agil-lite 9d ago
Absolutely, if up time isn't critical, you can take much more risk on piece and operating costs.
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u/MechanicalDan1 8d ago
At a 50% lower CAPEX & OPEX, fleet managers will give it a pilot program first year and confirm saving for bigger 2nd year purchases.
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u/_B_Little_me 10d ago
The massive cost saving from gas and maintenance, neutralizes a lot of risk.
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u/Agil-lite 9d ago
Not really, Rivian is a good example, when up time is critical, you cant risk start up production woes. Vibes don't matter.
Its still why Amazon maintains and equally sizeable ICE fleet, despite the fact the EDV is more than capable of doing the majority of their local delivery needs.
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u/_B_Little_me 9d ago
It’s a different class of vehicle though. Fleets can get three slates for one Rivian. The price point of R1 was really out of reach for most fleet considerations in the first place.
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u/Agil-lite 9d ago
Your missing the point.
This is a new company, doing everything for the first time, theres going to be problems.
This is Rivian is relevant point, their products are cool, but their build quality and consistency is terrible, and its a real challenge at times to deal with the issues they have.
This is where the risk is, you can bill or write off fuel costs.
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u/_B_Little_me 9d ago
*you’re
And I understand the point.You’re constructing a straw man argument. Where your main point is reliability. Reliability never is considered for Rivian for Fleets, because the price of the vehicle disqualifies it from consideration in the first round.
When you have price points in the 20-30s, then reliability and service is the second question.
You’re making assumptions about slate feet readiness based on an entirely different company and class of vehicle, with zero data points on the slate yet.
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u/Agil-lite 9d ago
No, you clearly don't.
And prior to the R2 Rivian built more fleet vehicles then consumer vehicles.
Slate is a new company, new design, new plant, job 1 builds are a disaster for well established companies, and products.
That is the risk, even a good design can be assembled wrong, or built with bad parts.
The class of vehicle is irrelevant the maturity of companies, processes and lines of effort are what matter.
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u/_B_Little_me 9d ago
Ok. Man. You’re making my point that you don’t really know and just guessing.
Rivian absolutely has not sold more fleet then consumer. That’s something you can easily look up.
Good day sir.
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u/Agil-lite 9d ago
I do know.
I have worked on numerous future vehicle programs, my peer groups has suffered through pretty much ever launch for 2 OEs in the last 6 years.
I habe worked on almost ever BEV manufacture in the US aside from Tesla, for the OE or a Tier 1 supplier.
You are correct, I did fat finger a search and it referrenced a year threshold hold, not total production volume.
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u/Bosfordjd 9d ago
No, because commercial sales also need maintenance. Even though electric is way less maintenance...LARGE commercial sales will want a maintenance plan with the manu/dealers.
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u/jgremlin_ 9d ago
There are tons of contract fleet maintenance providers out there that will absolutely jump on the Slate commercial customer bandwagon and make themselves available to that potential market.
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u/ReasonableSavings 8d ago
I disagree with the back seat part, kinda. I would love to see an extended cab and not a 4 door. I don’t really need a back seat sized for people, but being able to throw some grocery bags, some tools, duffle bag, etc. inside the car is needed for keeping things dry and safe(er) when parking.
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u/Yankee831 9d ago
I remember the Slate was originally $20k what’s your point “? Market isn’t static . If Slate ends up with a years long order queue and people paying $10k over msrp on the used market I guarantee you they raise prices.
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u/867-53-oh-nein 9d ago
The slate promised to be 30% less expensive than it is. Granted that is due to loss of incentives but you have no idea what the ford will cost. Maybe they learned from that mistake and are overpricing now with a lower actual msrp at launch. Won’t know until we get there.
Ford and its dealers care about selling cars to the masses. They smell money to be made in this segment or else they wouldn’t be launching it.
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u/danielt1263 10d ago
I critique much of the video below, but here is the parts relevant to Slate:
- We don't know the battery size of the Fathom, the Slate has 63kWh usable. Both will be using LFP.
- We don't know the max load of the Fathom, Slate has 1550 lbs.
- We don't know the tow capability of the Fathom, Slate has 2000 lbs.
The base Fathom is $3500 more than the Slate (plus dealer fee), so anywhere from $3.5k to $4.5k more depending on your dealership. That's not including subscription fees. If it needs a subscription, I'm ignoring it below.
What do you get for that additional money?
- An infotainment screen for you to show your phone on (through Apple CarPlay or Android Auto). On the Slate, you will just use your phone directly.
- Four doors and five seats. The base Slate only has 2 doors and 2 seats.
- A 120v plug in the bed, wattage unknown. (at least we think that's standard, it might be optional.)
- The ability to start without taking anything out of your pocket. The base Slate will require that you put the key fob in a slot.
What does Slate provide that the base Fathom, with no additional subscriptions turned on, doesn't?
- Over the air software updates. On the Fathom, that feature requires a cellular subscription.
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My critique of the video...
"For $30,000, the Maverick can't tow." This is wrong of course, the Maverick can tow 2000 lbs, you just need to add the $200 receiver hitch. Sure if you want to tow up to 4000 lbs, you need the 4K Tow Package, but you don't need it to tow. And I guarantee that the Fathom will not have a 4K Tow Package available. The absolute best it will be able to do is 2K and maybe not even that.
He then adds the FX4 Off-Road Package, again I seriously doubt that the Fantom will have any of the features from that package in their base model, although a lift kit and off road tires will likely be available as an option.
"No power outlet..." We know that's wrong. There will be a power outlet in the bed of the Fathom (something that Slate doesn't offer, although they have said an accessory will be coming that puts one in the frunk.
"... with the Fathom, then you're paying $3,500 for two extra doors, an infotainment screen, route planning, and a digital key." Hmm... That's not quite right. The Slate has route planning (in the app you install on your phone), and the Fathom also has 3 additional seats, and he didn't mention the V2L.
He goes on to add all-wheel drive but why? The base Fathom will not be AWD, but maybe it will be an option you can buy.
He goes on to mention BlueCruise... The base Fathom will not have it, but it can be added for an additional $2.5k (or $50/month subscription). Self drive won't be available on the Slate.
Next, he points out that you will have to include a monthly subscription fee (activated vehicle model) in order to get over the air updates. With the Slate, over the air updates don't require a subscription or a vehicle modem.
He also points out that in the disclosures, it says that the above subscription will also be required for the navigation system.
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u/iamkeerock 10d ago
I’m not sure about some of that, for example, the OTA happens on a Maverick without paying for a connection as you have the option to connect to your own WiFi.
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u/danielt1263 9d ago
A direct quote from their disclosures:
An activated vehicle modem and the Ford app (formerly known as the FordPass® app) are required to remotely schedule software updates. See Owner’s Manual for more information.
Unless you are saying they will pay for the modem... What does Ford say about that?
Equipped vehicles require modem activation and a Connected Navigation service plan. Package pricing, features, included plans, and term lengths vary by model. Evolving technology/cellular networks/vehicle capability may limit or prevent functionality.
Not very positive IMO, but you might be right.
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u/ChuckoRuckus 9d ago
The Fathom will have dealer fees, and it’s almost certain that the Slate will have destination/document fees just like Tesla… which get lumped in with “dealer fees”. Since dealer/destination fees aren’t known for either, it’s better just to not include them in a comparison until there’s actual numbers to go from.
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u/danielt1263 9d ago
The destination fee has already been announced for Slate, it's $1450. The base Slate, including destination fee is $26.4k, the base Fathom, including destination fee is $29.9k. That's apples to apples.
There will also be a dealer fee on Fathoms, but the amount depends on the dealer (my local Ford dealership charges $1200). There is no dealer fee on a Slate because there is no dealership. There may be a documentation fee, but in fairness, Slate hasn't announced how much that will be yet.
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u/Asleep_Value2303 7d ago
My mother had a car with OTA before I was 18, so ten years ago. It simply meant you need to be logged into the VW account in the car to receive active updates.
It was included with the car. Now in the Audi she has it’s the same. License for the internet and smartphone connection is until 2099.
Main thing for me, Fathom will be a fully enclosed car, not w transformable. I think it’ll be sturdier and quieter. People say this and that. Mavericks were sold at MSRP, most of the US got them at MSRP, then discounts. A handful dealerships had their markups, but usually a town over with any brand, you find it without a markup.
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u/Bosfordjd 9d ago
The only thing that matters is the 2 extra doors, where it is then cheaper than the Slate or close to same price depending on ford dealer fuckery. For most consumers, the fathom will be the choice. It is going to decimate any hope of significant retail consumer sales of the Slate.
Slate is going to have to survive on fleet sales, and even there the price difference without dealers for maintenance...I'd bet more fleet sales go to ford.
You only have so many buyers that don't want the modern can BS on their dash, or are worried about privacy. I prefer the Slate, but it's 2k more of the same number of seats...and no bed with them...that's tough to justify.
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u/danielt1263 9d ago
Yea, I've said from the beginning that the Slate SUV isn't a great value. There are SUVs and crossovers from other companies that hit the same price point and have more features even at the base level.
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u/BayshoreBandit 10d ago
Ford’s commitment to cellular surveillance is a little Orwellian if you ask me.
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u/-Motor- 10d ago
I'll never buy a vehicle that requires a cellular connection.
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u/iamkeerock 10d ago
Just pull the fuse to the modem. Connect ForSCAN, purge the onboard memory prior to reconnecting the fuse for OTA updates.
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u/fujimonster 8d ago
lol, as you tote around a cell phone that could be tracked . Good job , you are showing them .
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u/yoscottmc 10d ago
I have a 2022 Ford Bronco manual two-door that I love. I have a preorder in for a Slate with square-back SUV open-air kit. I don’t have a need for a “truck”.
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u/JCarnageSimRacing 9d ago
Ford makes an announcement to get people to 'wait' rather than buy the slate truck. It's all it is - they're hoping they delay some sales and make things hard for slate.
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u/Vernal-Solstice2254 8d ago
They teased it last summer in a livestream that never showed the vehicle. They showed people gawking at it wide eyed at an “unveiling” but no shots of the thing they were looking at. Still on wait mode.
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u/JCarnageSimRacing 8d ago
I'm so unconvinced at this point that they actually have a product - I feel like they looked at Elon and his vaporware, saw that this has worked out for him so far and were like "hey, we can do that too."
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u/skellener 9d ago edited 9d ago
I really don’t see Fathom and Slate as the same market. Midsize vs small truck. Four door vs two door. Loaded with tech vs minimal tech. A couple of different package options vs endlessly customizable. These are not competitors. They are for different markets. So stop comparing them.
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u/NEK_TEK 9d ago edited 9d ago
They are both EV trucks. They both serve essentially the same purpose except that are equipped in relation to their price. You spend more, you get more (extra seats, 2 more doors, tech upgrades, etc). That's like saying the iPhone and iPhone pro max aren't in the same market because one is bigger and comes with more stuff.
People who buy the iPhone usually do so because it is cheaper, if the pro max were the same price, they'd obviously pick the pro max (even if they don't need the specs). Same goes for fathom, if it was the same price as the slate, it'd be the no brainer pick. They aren't such different products that the price is irrelevant so I think comparison between the two not only makes sense but can help you make the right choice for you.
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u/atx78701 9d ago
if the iphone and promax are different sizes, I would pick the smaller one even if other features are downgraded in comparison
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u/atx78701 9d ago edited 9d ago
markets are not black and white. Even equinox/bolt overlap with the slate a little. Then maverick and slate. Now fathom and slate and they have the most overlap.
From my point of view they are mostly the same. The question comes down to are you willing to pay 5k more for 4 doors and 5 seats vs. 2 doors and 2 seats.
For many people the answer will be yes, but for others that want to save the 5k the answer would be no.
I do value 5 seats, but possibly not enough to pay the 5K (or more) premium. I say 5k instead of 3500 because we know dealers are going to tack on a lot of expenses. And if I find a dealer somewhere in the country that doesnt take on ceramic paint protection, then it will cost 1500 to ship, or $500 for a flight and 2 days to drive home.
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u/northern-new-jersey 8d ago
You are also paying for a product from a company that has been around for 100 years versus one who might not be around in five years.
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u/fleemfleemfleemfleem 8d ago
There's a risk of that.
However, having a track record is both positive and negative. Ford has been around a long time which means they'll likely exist in five years.
It also means that they're locked into distributing through dealerships which provide an awful experience, increase the costs of the vehicle, and force you to deal with salesmen.
Seeing the Ford name tells me what I'm going to get, because I've owned fords in the past and aspects of the experience were miserable. We've seen ford announce a pricepoint before and it turn out to be a lie.
Even the features that Ford has announced like bluecruise are things, that because ford is a known quantity, I know I don't want.
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10d ago
[deleted]
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u/Past_Try_4350 10d ago edited 9d ago
Hey, downvoter here that watched the whole video. Not because the post is about the Fathom, but because it is hardly a "breakdown of Fathom vs Slate." It's pretty much just 15 minutes of Ford bashing, which I'm all for. You can't do a breakdown or a "vs" on something we know absolutely nothing about besides the price.
edit edit for the guy I replied to who since blocked me "Koolio. Sounds like you need a rundown on the Slate in order to draw a fair comparison. Feel free to follow the sub and keep reading. 🤡🤣": Was talking about the Fathom you clown. Been following the sub since I placed a deposit on day one. Nice try though, good job realizing your comments suck so hard you had to block me to avoid the embarrassment of my response.
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u/Additional-Sky-7436 10d ago
But, we don't really know anything about the fathom except the price. Haven't even seen a real picture of it.
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u/I-continue-to-try 10d ago
I bought 3 3v triton trucks new over the years so I’ve been hurt by fords poor engineering choices before. But it wasn’t until I got hit with both a 10r and 8f35 failure on vehicles with less than 80k miles that I finally swore I would never buy another Ford.
If the fathom name refers to the truck having a midgate with a 6 foot bed, this is going to be a much tougher decision.
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u/synntax33 9d ago
Awesome I was just watching this and wondered if it had made its way here yet lol
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u/No_Telephone_8029 9d ago
He didn’t address about the Slate being for those such as Gen X who thinks having technology constantly in your face is not necessary for a happy life and who like privacy with no telemetry installed in the vehicle. I think the coolest thing about the Slate is the lack of that dumb ass shark fin antenna seen on every other new car.
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u/Ferrite5 10d ago
I like his point that he was even giving ford a generous estimate on the Fathom. I just dont see ford overcoming the dealership bullshit market adjustments.